MCU: The Marvel Cinematic Universe Official Discussion - Part 3

[Flint Marko]

I'm not looking to start a flame war since I like almost all of the MCU films (except for you Thor 2, IM2, and Avengers 2...huh something with the 2s?) But since you asked...

I can say that at least the Bryan Singer and Matthew Vaughn X-Men films (which is admittedly 4 out of 7 so far) are just handled with a lot more grace and ambition than most MCU films. There are exceptions to this rule like The Winter Soldier, but by and large, Marvel does not treat its material with as much dramatic aspirations as Singer or Vaughn does, nor do they really risk leaving the formula sheet as much (though neither studio has exactly made a Dark Knight either).

By this I mean that First Class felt way more like it was part of its '60s period with a real passion by Vaughn for that decade's Bondmania (which would carry over into Kingsman) than TFA felt like a movie set during World War II. Days of Future Past's robotic menace was incredibly daunting and threatening to the protagonists whereas Ultron felt like a Saturday morning cartoon show.

So for some, that is enough reason to welcome variety from a studio that doesn't mind letting it's "boy scout" (Xavier in this case) shoot up metaphorical heroin in the shadow of the Vietnam War. It just takes chances, which makes for more satisfying filmmaking and storytelling if not comic book fidelity.

In other words: it's different. Why not have both?

I think you bring up a lot of good points, but it's important to remember that we are talking about four films out of their eleven Marvel movies so far. The rest have ranged from marginal (The Wolverine) to some of the worst in the genre (pretty much every other one). That isn't exactly a track record to be proud of, they would receive a failing grade if we took every movie they've made into account.
If we're going to compare them to the MCU (without starting a flame war like you said, no one wants that), I'm of the opinion that Marvel has never made a movie that approaches the levels of FF, Daredevil, Elektra, X-men Origins, etc. They are far more consistent in quality; if you like one of their movies, there's a decent chance you'll find a lot to like in their other movies.
Fox does offer variety, which is a key strength as you point out, but with their filmography littered with failures, it is interesting how they have their own passionate fanbase willing to defend any move they make. Just look in the FF section for examples of what I'm talking about.

 

[Greens]

If we're going to compare them to the MCU (without starting a flame war like you said, no one wants that), I'm of the opinion that Marvel has never made a movie that approaches the levels of FF, Daredevil, Elektra, X-men Origins, etc. They are far more consistent in quality; if you like one of their movies, there's a decent chance you'll find a lot to like in their other movies.

That's true, although I would say that Elektra is in a whole different realm compared to the others you mentioned. There is literally NOTHING redeeming in that film. Every single scene is a borefest. At least Origins had the awesome intro with Wolverine kicking ass throughout history.

But yeah, the only movie that comes close in the MCU is Thor 2, and it's still passable.

 

[Flint Marko]

That's true, although I would say that Elektra is in a whole different realm compared to the others you mentioned. There is literally NOTHING redeeming in that film. Every single scene is a borefest. At least Origins had the awesome intro with Wolverine kicking ass throughout history.

But yeah, the only movie that comes close in the MCU is Thor 2, and it's still passable.

I haven't seen Elektra in ten years so it's all but erased from my memory. I saw it used at Hastings for $4, part of me is tempted to pick it up and give it a revisit.

 

[DACrowe]

I think you bring up a lot of good points, but it's important to remember that we are talking about four films out of their eleven Marvel movies so far. The rest have ranged from marginal (The Wolverine) to some of the worst in the genre (pretty much every other one). That isn't exactly a track record to be proud of, they would receive a failing grade if we took every movie they've made into account.
If we're going to compare them to the MCU (without starting a flame war like you said, no one wants that), I'm of the opinion that Marvel has never made a movie that approaches the levels of FF, Daredevil, Elektra, X-men Origins, etc. They are far more consistent in quality; if you like one of their movies, there's a decent chance you'll find a lot to like in their other movies.
Fox does offer variety, which is a key strength as you point out, but with their filmography littered with failures, it is interesting how they have their own passionate fanbase willing to defend any move they make. Just look in the FF section for examples of what I'm talking about.

Fair enough. And it is true. I enjoyed The Wolverine but the ending was very weak. The rest of their non-Singer and non-Vaughn CBM have been quite terrible. But I do not really have preference for a brand. I just like the X-Men. As someone who grew up in the '90s, they were right up there with Spider-Man and Batman for me. When they make a bad X-Men movie (XOW, TLS) I'll also call them out on it. And when they make good X-Men movies, I'll praise that too. Just like as a DD fan, I can say that 2003 movie was hot garbage.

But I think competition is good. Iron Man/IM2 I feel is a big reason Fox made First Class, which I honestly like better than any MCU film (I loved the '60s go-go energy of the piece and thought the McAvoy/Fassbender relationship was more fun and intriguing than any I've seen in the MCU). And the Avengers is why Fox made DOFP, which while I do prefer some MCU films over that, DOFP is still excellent and honestly better than AOU. So much so, I hope that the comparison pushes Marvel to outdo itself with a "serious" team movie in Civil War or Avengers 3 and 4.

I also imagine however Singer does Apocalypse will influence Marvel to try harder with Thanos, which in effect will cause DC to try harder with whoever their Justice League villain is. And Marvel does need that kick in the pants, IMO. I like good competition and if someone is making X-Men movies, especially ones as good as XFC and DOFP, I don't care if it's Disney or Fox flipping the bill. It's really Singer's vision I'm a fan of. And if XMA is a bad movie, I'll admit that too.

...though I get much worse vibes from Fantastic Four. I want it to be good because I actually like Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm, but that movie looks bad. But since I don't "pick sides," it's no heartbreak for me if the movie sucks. Then again, I was never a big FF fan to begin with anyway.

 

[Flint Marko]

Fair enough. And it is true. I enjoyed The Wolverine but the ending was very weak. The rest of their non-Singer and non-Vaughn CBM have been quite terrible. But I do not really have preference for a brand. I just like the X-Men. As someone who grew up in the '90s, they were right up there with Spider-Man and Batman for me. When they make a bad X-Men movie (XOW, TLS) I'll also call them out on it. And when they make good X-Men movies, I'll praise that too. Just like as a DD fan, I can say that 2003 movie was hot garbage.

But I think competition is good. Iron Man/IM2 I feel is a big reason Fox made First Class, which I honestly like better than any MCU film (I loved the '60s go-go energy of the piece and thought the McAvoy/Fassbender relationship was more fun and intriguing than any I've seen in the MCU). And the Avengers is why Fox made DOFP, which while I do prefer some MCU films over that, DOFP is still excellent and honestly better than AOU. So much so, I hope that the comparison pushes Marvel to outdo itself with a "serious" team movie in Civil War or Avengers 3 and 4.

I also imagine however Singer does Apocalypse will influence Marvel to try harder with Thanos, which in effect will cause DC to try harder with whoever their Justice League villain is. And Marvel does need that kick in the pants, IMO. I like good competition and if someone is making X-Men movies, especially ones as good as XFC and DOFP, I don't care if it's Disney or Fox flipping the bill. It's really Singer's vision I'm a fan of. And if XMA is a bad movie, I'll admit that too.

...though I get much worse vibes from Fantastic Four. I want it to be good because I actually like Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm, but that movie looks bad.[/b] But since I don't "pick sides," it's no heartbreak for me if the movie sucks. Then again, I was never a big FF fan to begin with anyway.

I wholeheartedly agree, competition should be welcome. Iron sharpens iron, the different studios are all inadvertently trying to do the best they can to stay on top, and the only assured winner is the consumer.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Fair enough. And it is true. I enjoyed The Wolverine but the ending was very weak. The rest of their non-Singer and non-Vaughn CBM have been quite terrible. But I do not really have preference for a brand. I just like the X-Men. As someone who grew up in the '90s, they were right up there with Spider-Man and Batman for me. When they make a bad X-Men movie (XOW, TLS) I'll also call them out on it. And when they make good X-Men movies, I'll praise that too. Just like as a DD fan, I can say that 2003 movie was hot garbage.

But I think competition is good. Iron Man/IM2 I feel is a big reason Fox made First Class, which I honestly like better than any MCU film (I loved the '60s go-go energy of the piece and thought the McAvoy/Fassbender relationship was more fun and intriguing than any I've seen in the MCU). And the Avengers is why Fox made DOFP, which while I do prefer some MCU films over that, DOFP is still excellent and honestly better than AOU. So much so, I hope that the comparison pushes Marvel to outdo itself with a "serious" team movie in Civil War or Avengers 3 and 4.

I also imagine however Singer does Apocalypse will influence Marvel to try harder with Thanos, which in effect will cause DC to try harder with whoever their Justice League villain is. And Marvel does need that kick in the pants, IMO. I like good competition and if someone is making X-Men movies, especially ones as good as XFC and DOFP, I don't care if it's Disney or Fox flipping the bill. It's really Singer's vision I'm a fan of. And if XMA is a bad movie, I'll admit that too.

...though I get much worse vibes from Fantastic Four. I want it to be good because I actually like Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm, but that movie looks bad.[/b] But since I don't "pick sides," it's no heartbreak for me if the movie sucks. Then again, I was never a big FF fan to begin with anyway.

to all of this, competition is a good thing and will keep pushing the respective studios to try harder.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

to all of this, competition is a good thing and will keep pushing the respective studios to try harder.

Absolutely.

 

[Loki882]

Speaking of Thanos, I REALLY hope that he pays off in a big way. The criticisms of most Marvel film villains already there, but they've been VERY SLOWLY building this guy up for the better part of 10 years (and like 15 movies), so the payoff had better be worth the wait of people will be "disappointed" to say the least.

 

[Loki882]

As for the X-films, I'd personally put DOFP, FC, and X2. above most of the MCU films (TA, TWS, GOTG, and IM give them a run for their money). X1 and TW are on the level of films like TFA and Thor (and Ant Man) for me. Namely "good but flawed). TLS and XMOW, yeah I'd prefer not to think about them ever again (especially since Singer went out of is way to erase them from continuity).

Don't get me wrong, I like/enjoy most of the MCU films. They tend to be entertaining at least. But one thing that I do give te X-films credit for is being willingness to "go further" and "push the envelope" more.

 

[DACrowe]

Speaking of Thanos, I REALLY hope that he pays off in a big way. The criticisms of most Marvel film villains already there, but they've been VERY SLOWLY building this guy up for the better part of 10 years (and like 15 movies), so the payoff had better be worth the wait of people will be "disappointed" to say the least.

That is a concern. Especially since I am willing to bet Darkseid will be the villain of the Justice League movies and Fox is getting there a few years early with Apocalypse (albeit his makeup leaves something to be desired).

I am afraid Thanos might just be another Ronan, because in GOTG he was less "Emperor Palpatine" and more "that guy." However, I do think Marvel responds to criticism either directly or indirectly. Again on the "competition" thing, AoU for all of its problems aptly responded to the harsh words for Man of Steel by having the heroes act like actual superheroes and save lives.

Hopefully, the rising chorus of criticism about their villains will reach them before Avengers 3. I mean it has entered the mainstream when Forbes is running articles about it and George R.R. Martin is writing on it. So, I am cautiously optimistic that with Thanos at least, Marvel will finally have a terrifying antagonist for the heroes to face.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

That is a concern. Especially since I am willing to bet Darkseid will be the villain of the Justice League movies and Fox is getting there a few years early with Apocalypse (albeit his makeup leaves something to be desired).

I am afraid Thanos might just be another Ronan, because in GOTG he was less "Emperor Palpatine" and more "that guy." However, I do think Marvel responds to criticism either directly or indirectly. Again on the "competition" thing, AoU for all of its problems aptly responded to the harsh words for Man of Steel by having the heroes act like actual superheroes and save lives.

Hopefully, the rising chorus of criticism about their villains will reach them before Avengers 3. I mean it has entered the mainstream when Forbes is running articles about it and George R.R. Martin is writing on it. So, I am cautiously optimistic that with Thanos at least, Marvel will finally have a terrifying antagonist for the heroes to face.

I hope so, because Cross and Malekith being average/poor is one thing, but messing up Thanos will be a BIG issue for many.

 

[Greens]

Thanos was underwhelming in GotG. I hope they're not setting themselves up for failure.

 

[FrozenBanana00]

Yeah it would be pretty anticlimactic if he sucked as the big bad in Avengers 3. Hopefully he won't.

 

[NewYorkSpider]

I'm not worried. I think they know this is one villain they can't mess up. Especially after they've built him up over the years.

 

[Spiderine]

Im not really worried about them "messing" Thanos up. I think there are many of us who will set the bar so high, no matter what they do with him will seem somewhat underwhelming. He has already been described as "the most powerful being in the universe". Now you have to show us why. Especially when he is on the verge of retrieving the most powerful artifacts in the universe.

And so far, those that have wielded that power, have looked pathetically weak and easily was defeated.

 

[Oscorp]

Thing is, I don't doubt that they will show him as an absolute power house. I want him to also be an interesting character. Malekith is proof that power alone doesn't make the villain. I want Thanos to be more than only "I WILL DESTROY THE UNIVERSE!!"

 

[Dr. Evil]

The best MCU villain by far is Wilson Fisk

 

[The Guard]

Isn't half the point of Thanos that behind all that power, he's kind of a pathetic, troubled individual?

I've never read a Thanos comic where I feel like he himself, without the aid of the gauntlet or some other method of serious power, is that much of a threat compared to other villains.

 

[Creo]

Isn't half the point of Thanos that behind all that power, he's kind of a pathetic, troubled individual?

I've never read a Thanos comic where I feel like he himself, without the aid of the gauntlet or some other method of serious power, is that much of a threat compared to other villains.

You need to read Thanos Rising

Spoiler

 

[Loki882]

When I went to see AOU and we got to his cameo, a guy nearby turned to his friend and literally said "I still have no idea who that guy is?" And it's true, they're so obsessed with the "slow burn" with him that they haven't even bothered to give context to, who the Hell he even is. If you're not a comic reader, you still have no idea why he's supposed to be so damn important yet. Marvel needs to fix that starting soon. Don't have him go "fine, I'll do it myself," and then we don't see him again for like 3-4 films, that'd be a mistake imo.

 

[The_Manhunter]

When I went to see AOU and we got to his cameo, a guy nearby turned to his friend and literally said "I still have no idea who that guy is?" And it's true, they're so obsessed with the "slow burn" with him that they haven't even bothered to give context to, who the Hell he even is. If you're not a comic reader, you still have no idea why he's supposed to be so damn important yet. Marvel needs to fix that starting soon. Don't have him go "fine, I'll do it myself," and then we don't see him again for like 3-4 films, that'd be a mistake imo.

He could show up in Doctor Strange, GOTG Vol 2, and Thor Ragnarok. There's no shortage of options so I wouldn't be too worried.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

You need to read Thanos Rising

Spoiler

Is that out in TPB form yet?

 

[DACrowe]

Well I saw Fantastic Four. And it is not good. Like at all. See I can be fair.

Still, does not mean I cannot look forward to X-Men: Apocalypse and Deadpool. Still think those look dope.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Still, does not mean I cannot look forward to X-Men: Apocalypse and Deadpool. Still think those look dope.

So does almost everyone else. Well, Deadpool anyway.

 

[Shikamaru]

Say, despite all the talk of doing shared universes, we still don't have one on screen besides the MCU. The only exception would be Flash/Arrow, but there's none on the big screen yet. This means Phase 3 will bring the most competitive years for Marvel.