Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - - - - Part 13

[Boom]

To balance out the negativity, I will say this.

Everything I have seen of Smaug playing "cat and mouse" with Bilbo has looked disgustingly perfect. The tension is so thick you need a chainsaw to cut through it, Smaug himself looks spectacular, Cumberbatch and Freeman appear to be in top form, and Howard Shore's theme for Smaug is among the franchise's best compositions.

Perfection. And thank God for that.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

To balance out the negativity, I will say this.

Everything I have seen of Smaug playing "cat and mouse" with Bilbo has looked disgustingly perfect. The tension is so thick you need a chainsaw to cut through it, Smaug himself looks spectacular, Cumberbatch and Freeman appear to be in top form, and Howard Shore's theme for Smaug is among the franchise's best compositions.

Perfection. And thank God for that.

There is a reason I am going first thing Friday.

Also for my money, the Spider scene looks fantastic.

 

[Boom]

On the "not enough Bilbo" track. The Hobbit has always been Bilbo, Thorin and Gandalf's tale to me. So I tihnk Bilbo should be sharing screen time with those characters and their story. But if we get lost in the Elf fanfic... come on.

True, but a lot of what we learn about Thorin and Gandalf as characters in the book comes directly from their interactions and relationships with Bilbo.

Save for his initial imprisonment by the elves and the Battle of Five Armies, Thorin is always seen with Bilbo. Same with Gandalf.

 

[craigdbfan]

The argument of mobility isn't cutting it for me either. I do think that the practical Bolg design I posted could have been streamlined a bit more but mobility has never been an issue for these films with prosthetics.

Lets take a look at FOTR. There's a freaking scene where Lurtz is running in the woods like a beast without any signs of slow down or clumsiness. The Goblins and Orcs were incredibly jittery, quick and slimy in their movements. WETA Digital outdid themselves in making sure these actors were able to move incredibly fluidly. Look at this scene here from Two Towers.



Look at the emotion pouring through in their performances. There is NO excuse for what happened here. We got a bland Azog and Bolg design because WETA didn't have enough time to develop them given the nature of the extensiveness of this project and they had already put their hard work and soul into their practical iterations when it was all of sudden scrapped at the last minute and all they were able to create are the Marzipan boys were seeing right now.

 

[vinsanity]

Again, may just be me. But I for one did not hear a single criticism about the handling of the orcs, goblins, and uruk-hai in the original trilogy as a whole UNTIL Jackson decided to go computer crazy on everything. Odd, to say the least.

You're not the only one, i've been on Torn foruns since the LOTR days and i've never heard people complaining about the orcs being prosthetics or saying jiberrish like: "they look like bad halloween masks" like they do now, that's almost an insult to Sir Richard Taylor and his team in Weta Workshop who've build those incredible creature designs and sets, props, bigatures. And i feel sorry for them in the Hobbit, many of their greatest works (the bigatures, orcs costumes) we're almost ditched by PJ and his CG "Lucas mindset" that everything is better with CGI. All that work building the prosthetic Bolg/Azog and other orcs and then getting all that scrapped and put more extra work to the guys on Weta Digital when they should be focusing on making the best cg creatures that can not be played by humans and creating the several environments, so many last minute changes, 5 middle-earth movies and it's always a stretch to get them finished in time.

Still looking forward the movie, i think is going to be great.

 

[Boom]

To be fair, those are also two of the best scenes in the book.

Fair point.

Beorn physically, psychologically, and spiritually ****ing the goblins up at the end is pretty great too .

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The argument of mobility isn't cutting it for me either. I do think that the practical Bolg design I posted could have been streamlined a bit more but mobility has never been an issue for these films with prosthetics.

Lets take a look at FOTR. There's a freaking scene where Lurtz is running in the woods like a beast without any signs of slow down or clumsiness. The Goblins and Orcs were incredibly jittery, quick and slimy in their movements. WETA Digital outdid themselves in making sure these actors were able to move incredibly fluidly. Look at this scene here from Two Towers.



Look at the emotion pouring through in the performances in these men. There is NO excuse for what happened here. We got a bland Azog and Bolg design because WETA didn't have enough time to develop them given the nature of the extensiveness of this project and they had already put their hard work and soul into their practical iterations when it was all of sudden scrapped at the last minute and all they were able to create are the Marzipan boys were seeing right now.

Couldn't have said it better.

All you need to do is pop in FotR, sit down and watch some of the finest scenes in film history. Watch the Mines of Moria. From the moment they are forced in to their escape into the woods... That is how you do it imo. That is how you bring all the tools and tricks together.

[YT]zgmjyNc-H1I[/YT]
[YT]5Naqi06SO6Q[/YT]
[YT]YhW0IO6Gk2Y[/YT]
Heck, Amon Hen is terrific.
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[YT]dc6aciIhO6c[/YT]

 

[Marvolo]

The argument of mobility isn't cutting it for me either. I do think that the practical Bolg design I posted could have been streamlined a bit more but mobility has never been an issue for these films with prosthetics.

Lets take a look at FOTR. There's a freaking scene where Lurtz is running in the woods like a beast without any signs of slow down or clumsiness. The Goblins and Orcs were incredibly jittery, quick and slimy in their movements. WETA Digital outdid themselves in making sure these actors were able to move incredibly fluidly. Look at this scene here from Two Towers.



Look at the emotion pouring through in their performances. There is NO excuse for what happened here. We got a bland Azog and Bolg design because WETA didn't have enough time to develop them given the nature of the extensiveness of this project and they had already put their hard work and soul into their practical iterations when it was all of sudden scrapped at the last minute and all they were able to create are the Marzipan boys were seeing right now.

Its cool if you're ok with it, but I feel the orcs should be quicker and more dexterous than they were in LOTR. They are bred to fight and from elves. They should be faster than a man. CGI is a means to that end.

 

[vinsanity]

The argument of mobility isn't cutting it for me either. I do think that the practical Bolg design I posted could have been streamlined a bit more but mobility has never been an issue for these films with prosthetics.

Lets take a look at FOTR. There's a freaking scene where Lurtz is running in the woods like a beast without any signs of slow down or clumsiness. The Goblins and Orcs were incredibly jittery, quick and slimy in their movements. WETA Digital outdid themselves in making sure these actors were able to move incredibly fluidly. Look at this scene here from Two Towers.



Look at the emotion pouring through in their performances. There is NO excuse for what happened here. We got a bland Azog and Bolg design because WETA didn't have enough time to develop them given the nature of the extensiveness of this project and they had already put their hard work and soul into their practical iterations when it was all of sudden scrapped at the last minute and all they were able to create are the Marzipan boys were seeing right now.

[YT]LJIr_EL_4m8[/YT]

I'm also imagining this scene with all CGI orcs, it wouldn't had the same impact, here you can feel that they're really fighting and not pixels doing programmed fighting movements, that rawness of this scene could not be captured with CGI and that's why i think men in suit works best with orcs

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You're not the only one, i've been on Torn foruns since the LOTR days and i've never heard people complaining about the orcs being prosthetics or saying jiberrish like: "they look like bad halloween masks" like they do now, that's almost an insult to Sir Richard Taylor and his team in Weta Workshop who've build those incredible creature designs and sets, props, bigatures. And i feel sorry for them in the Hobbit, many of their greatest works (the bigatures, orcs costumes) we're almost ditched by PJ and his CG "Lucas mindset" that everything is better with CGI. All that work building the prosthetic Bolg/Azog and other orcs and then getting all that scrapped and put more extra work to the guys on Weta Digital when they should be focusing on making the best cg creatures that can not be played by humans and creating the several environments, so many last minute changes, 5 middle-earth movies and it's always a stretch to get them finished in time.

Still looking forward the movie, i think is going to be great.

It is funny, because all I ever use to hear was praise. The prosthetics and bigatures were loved by one and all. The use was praised to high heaven in the face of other option.

 

[Boom]

[YT]LJIr_EL_4m8[/YT]

I'm also imagining this scene with all CGI orcs, it wouldn't had the same impact, here you can feel that they're really fighting and not pixels doing programmed fighting movements, that rawness of this scene could not be captured with CGI and that's why i think men in suit works best with orcs

Exactomundo .

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Its cool if you're ok with it, but I feel the orcs should be quicker and more dexterous than they were in LOTR. They are bred to fight and from elves. They should be faster than a man. CGI is a means to that end.

Do you really believe there has been one orc or goblin in the Hobbit, including Azog, who you think can take Lurtz in a fight?

 

[vinsanity]

Its cool if you're ok with it, but I feel the orcs should be quicker and more dexterous than they were in LOTR. They are bred to fight and from elves. They should be faster than a man. CGI is a means to that end.

Nothing in the Hobbit shows that the CGI orcs are faster and more dexterous than the LOTR ones. and i think they we're quick enough in LOTR, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli leave Amon Hen like an hour after the Uruks left with Merry and Pippin, and by the time they reached Rohan the Uruks were a day ahead of distance

 

[ares834]

Nothing in the Hobbit shows that the CGI orcs are faster and more dexterous than the LOTR ones. and i think they we're quick enough in LOTR, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli leave Amon Hen like an hour after the Uruks left with the Merry and Pippin, and by the time they reached Rohan the Uruks were a day ahead of distance

And yet, somehow, the heroes "are gaining on them". I always had a laugh at that.

 

[Marvolo]

Do you really believe there has been one orc or goblin in the Hobbit, including Azog, who you think can take Lurtz in a fight?

Azog should be able to. And there is still relative size to consider. For instance a 5' orc should be stronger and much more dexterous than a similar sized man. But no I don't think a small orc would be stronger than an uruk. Truthfully Lurtz should have been faster and more ferocious than he was. An uruk that size, it should be like a human trying to take on a gorilla. Instead it was a man taking on a bigger man. Not that it looked bad, or was bad. For the time it was made its great. But I can't help but wonder what an Uruk like lurtz could have done if he had been cgi. If anything Jackson hasn't done enough with Azog. Given his size and the use of cgi he should be one strong insanely fast beast. So far we haven't seen that. I hope that's remedied in DOS.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Azog should be able to. And there is still relative size to consider. For instance a 5' orc should be stronger and much more dexterous than a similar sized man. But no I don't think a small orc would be stronger than an uruk. Truthfully Lurtz should have been faster and more ferocious than he was. An uruk that size, it should be like a human trying to take on a gorilla. Instead it was a man taking on a bigger man. Not that it looked bad, or was bad. For the time it was made its great. But I can't help but wonder what an Uruk like lurtz could have done if he had been cgi. If anything Jackson hasn't done enough with Azog. Given his size and the use of cgi he should be one strong insanely fast beast. So far we haven't seen that. I hope that's remedied in DOS.

Here is my problem with your theory. Azog moves slow enough to do battle with a dwarf. Watch the scene when Thorin takes his arm. Azog has nothing on Lurtz.

 

[Marvolo]

Here is my problem with your theory. Azog moves slow enough to do battle with a dwarf. Watch the scene when Thorin takes his arm. Azog has nothing on Lurtz.

And he nearly crushed Thorin. Thorin only took his arm cause Azog didnt see his blade and moved his arm right into its path. What i see in that fight is Thorin getting lucky. Not a slow Azog. He was moping the floor with dwarves and the kings head too. Azog had him on his back in a hurry.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

And he nearly crushed Thorin. Thorin only took his arm cause Azog didnt see his blade and moved his arm right into its path. What i see in that fight is Thorin getting lucky. Not a slow Azog. He was moping the floor with dwarves and the kings head too. Azog had him on his back in a hurry.

Azog has no speed or quickness. It is just brute strength. It isn't like he is fighting the equivalent of a CG dwarf which is the point. The same for all our leads.

 

[Marvolo]

Azog has no speed or quickness. It is just brute strength. It isn't like he is fighting the equivalent of a CG dwarf which is the point. The same for all our leads.

Well I'm hoping we get to see some speed in DOS. I've already seen things in the trailers and tv spots from the orcs that I can't see a man in a suit being able to pull off. If Jackson is putting Bolg in a fight I stand by the theory that he needed something a man in a suit couldn't offer. Jackson isnt just blindly throwing cgi at the wall for no good reason. We know him and his crew dont work that way. As for Azog we have seen his original prosthetic design and I can see why he wanted him replaced with the brute we got. The original is puny and nothing special. Hardly Azog material.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Well I'm hoping we get to see some speed in DOS. I've already seen things in the trailers and tv spots from the orcs that I can't see a man in a suit being able to pull off. If Jackson is putting Bolg in a fight I stand by the theory that he needed something a man in a suit couldn't offer. Jackson isnt just blindly throwing cgi at the wall for no good reason. We know him and his crew dont work that way. As for Azog we have seen his original prosthetic design and I can see why he wanted him replaced with the brute we got. The original is puny and nothing special.

I don't agree with that now.

Also, need them to do things a man in a suit isn't capable of seems weird considering they are fighting actual men.

 

[Marvolo]

I don't agree with that now.

Also, need them to do things a man in a suit isn't capable of seems weird considering they are fighting actual men.

What does that have to do with anything? Does a gorilla or to use a tolkien species elf hold back or move slower just because they are fighting men or some other species? No. They move how they are supposed to regardless of their foe. Elves in this series have always acted more than human. And when that is required cgi is employed. Why shouldn't it be the same for orcs?

 

[Persona]

Couldn't have said it better.

All you need to do is pop in FotR, sit down and watch some of the finest scenes in film history. Watch the Mines of Moria. From the moment they are forced in to their escape into the woods... That is how you do it imo. That is how you bring all the tools and tricks together.

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[YT]5Naqi06SO6Q[/YT]
[YT]YhW0IO6Gk2Y[/YT]
Heck, Amon Hen is terrific.
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[YT]dc6aciIhO6c[/YT]

you'll get no argument from me about the unparalleled excellence of the Mines of Moria. one of my favorite action/adventure sequences of ALL TIME and i doubt PJ will ever be able to match it.

 

[Persona]

I figured it went without saying that by "real" I meant "real world" materials.

Like actors in actual makeup and actual prosthetics, wearing actual costumes, acting in an actual scene with other actual actors on an actual set/location.

This new-age nonsense of actors having to work in all green environments, all dolled up in grey spandex with computer markers, and act off of lit-up golf balls instead of other human beings just isn't for me. I about broke my Extended Edition disc in half when I saw McKellen have his nervous breakdown.

oh, i know, that's why i was winking.

 

[Persona]

my bias is that i like the movies. that's it. i am no more drenched in bias than you. i do post comments out of that framework, not out of "PJ knows best." so you can drop that rhetoric, it's simply false.

i don't know what i said that was uncivil about HP. do you really want me to go through all the effects i thought didn't work besides quidditch? morph effects, snake, on and on. the FX work is generally very good, but just like every FX-movie, there are some things that don't work perfectly. i wasn't trying to insult your love for HP.

and i didn't say i liked CG Bolg better, i said i thought i liked the design better because it seems less overworked. God forbid i like the CG design better than the make-up one.

You don't actually have to say "Peter knows best" for it to be your reasoning. Everything you say comes from that position.

Almost every time you voice criticism you do so by ending the point with the idea that the scene or decision was basically immaterial. Not enough to effect the film overall.


It is not about your positive opinion. Of course you can have it. People can think that B&R is better then TDK. That is how opinions work. I have plenty of conversations on this site with those that like films I don't or like aspect of films I that I don't. It is all pretty civil except when it comes to a certain Marvel fanboy who doesn't like any criticism. It is that your opinion so drenched in what looks like bias to me, that I can't take it at face value.

How anyone could look at those shots of CG Bolg and think "better" boggles my mind. Not because CG can't be fantastic, but because that CG clearly isn't.

And that is the big problem with the use of CG in a film like this. There is a already a small window to deliver the work that you aren't going to get their best work from shot to shot. The results are going to vary. There is so much to start with that when you add the unnecessary the results will vary even more.


I talk about the aspects and topics at hand and results do vary. I am all for civil discussion. I respond to many of your post civilly. But then you make post like the one about Potter and then seem to forget it. Where is all the shaky CG in the post-CoS HPs?

 

[Persona]

There is a reason I am going first thing Friday.

Also for my money, the Spider scene looks fantastic.

spider scene is actually my favorite part in the book. i hear it's a tad brief in the movie but, man, i am really looking forward to that scene.