Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - - Part 16

[jmc]

I actually think it will be very unlikely we'll ever get any further Middle Earth films in our lifetime, maybe even as long as cinema continues. I just can't see anyone wanting to take on the daunting task of doing The Lord of the Rings again.

 

[Marvolo]

I actually think it will be very unlikely we'll ever get any further Middle Earth films in our lifetime, maybe even as long as cinema continues. I just can't see anyone wanting to take on the daunting task of doing The Lord of the Rings again.

They dont have to take on LOTR again. Silmarillion, the Unfinished Tales, and the two Books of Lost Tales offer 4 Ages of materials that can be turned into films. There is like 5,000+ years of history to explore. Granted its sparsely covered, but there's enough there to work with. Hell, Morgoths shenanigans alone would make a good series. They could also do a film involving Gondolin too. And there is the days when Sauron was working for Morgoth. Or what about The Children of Hurin. Its a short book and a good tale.

 

[Vartha]

Yeah and Jackson shot it down quickly:

Peter Jackson: Tolkien Estate Rights Prevent More Middle-Earth Films



http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/peter-jackson-tolkien-estate-rights-753368

One day the rights might be sold, but we arent likely to see another middle-earth film anytime soon. I doubt Ian knows much about the current rights issues.

Dang, was hoping something changed.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Vartha wanted to see the material bleed dry.

 

[Doc Ock]

Vartha wanted to see the material bleed dry.

I did too.

 

[Vartha]

They dont have to take on LOTR again. Silmarillion, the Unfinished Tales, and the two Books of Lost Tales offer 4 Ages of materials that can be turned into films. There is like 5,000+ years of history to explore. Granted its sparsely covered, but there's enough there to work with. Hell, Morgoths shenanigans alone would make a good series. They could also do a film involving Gondolin too. And there is the days when Sauron was working for Morgoth. Or what about The Children of Hurin. Its a short book and a good tale.

See, I just don't understand Tolkien Estate doesn't want to make money and release the materials.
I mean they can even have someone over see the production to make sure the properties stay true to the Stories as much as possible

 

[Vartha]

Vartha wanted to see the material bleed dry.

na just done. Tolkien's stories should be on the big screen or even as Marv said as a series.

 

[Vartha]

I did too.

lol what can I say, I love the genre, and these films to ME are great, even if they AREN'T exactly like the books. It got MY kids wanting to READ them

 

[Silvermoon]

B-Roll footage vids have popped up, for those so inclined....

 

[Marvolo]

See, I just don't understand Tolkien Estate doesn't want to make money and release the materials.
I mean they can even have someone over see the production to make sure the properties stay true to the Stories as much as possible

That was my argument as well. The estate has the leverage to require any film be done with the collaboration of the estate to ensure the scripts are true to Tolkien's vision. So why wouldnt they sell? The answer to that question right now seems to be Chris Tolkien. But another member brought up a good point: if the estate is a Trust then multiple people make decisions and Chris Tolkien cant keep the rights from being sold by himself. And the copyright is up this century apparently. So there is hope. We just have to be patient.

 

[Vartha]

That was my argument as well. The estate has the leverage to require any film be done with the collaboration of the estate to ensure the scripts are true to Tolkien's vision. So why wouldnt they sell? The answer to that question right now seems to be Chris Tolkien. But another member brought up a good point: if the estate is a Trust then multiple people make decisions and Chris Tolkien cant keep the rights from being sold by himself. And the copyright is up this century apparently. So there is hope. We just have to be patient.

Yeah, that's just not one of my best virtues, tho I am patient with everyone in here lol

 

[jmc]

See, I just don't understand Tolkien Estate doesn't want to make money and release the materials.
I mean they can even have someone over see the production to make sure the properties stay true to the Stories as much as possible

Not to put too fine a point on it but sometimes it's not about money.

 

[jmc]

They dont have to take on LOTR again. Silmarillion, the Unfinished Tales, and the two Books of Lost Tales offer 4 Ages of materials that can be turned into films. There is like 5,000+ years of history to explore. Granted its sparsely covered, but there's enough there to work with. Hell, Morgoths shenanigans alone would make a good series. They could also do a film involving Gondolin too. And there is the days when Sauron was working for Morgoth. Or what about The Children of Hurin. Its a short book and a good tale.

Try pitching any of those to a studio exec and they'll more than likely look at you with a blank face. There's no value in adapting any of those stories even if the Tolkien estate were to allow them to be made. LOTR and The Hobbit are the only worthwhile properties worth investing in when it comes to Middle Earth. And besides, doesn't Christopher Tolkien have writing credit in a lot of those works?

 

[Marvolo]

Try pitching any of those to a studio exec and they'll more than likely look at you with a blank face. There's no value in adapting any of those stories even if the Tolkien estate were to allow them to be made. LOTR and The Hobbit are the only worthwhile properties worth investing in when it comes to Middle Earth. And besides, doesn't Christopher Tolkien have writing credit in a lot of those works?

No value? Their is always value in stories with blockbuster potential which all of that stuff has.

I guarantee that if you tell them about Gondolin's fall and actually showed them the potential and size of some of these stories they'd be interested. They care about money, and these stories have blockbusters and dollar signs written all over them. And people like this universe so people will go see films set in this universe as long as it looks good. People dont just want remake after remake of LOTR. They want middle earth and new stories they've never seen before. Some of the stories in the first and second age would dwarf the stuff in the war of the ring so selling it to hollywood execs wouldnt be that hard if youre decent at organizing thoughts and making pitches and can speak "suit". And its a pre-existing franchise with brand recognition built in. Thats a big attraction for execs and WB is well known for wanting to acquire and maintain an ongoing fantasy franchise.

 

[<(o_o)>]

Not directly Hobbit related but... Peter Jackson gets star on Hollywood Walk of Fame http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11364213

 

[jmc]

No value? Their is always value in stories with blockbuster potential which all of that stuff has.

I guarantee that if you tell them about Gondolin's fall and actually showed them the potential and size of some of these stories they'd be interested. They care about money, and these stories have blockbusters and dollar signs written all over them. And people like this universe so people will go see films set in this universe as long as it looks good. People dont just want remake after remake of LOTR. They want middle earth and new stories they've never seen before. Some of the stories in the first and second age would dwarf the stuff in the war of the ring so selling it to hollywood execs wouldnt be that hard if youre decent at organizing thoughts and making pitches and can speak "suit". And its a pre-existing franchise with brand recognition built in. Thats a big attraction for execs and WB is well known for wanting to acquire and maintain an ongoing fantasy franchise.

Of course every story has potential, but the brand recognition for Middle Earth has been used up. You're really stretching it if you're trying to convince me The Silmarillion or Children of Hurin is as widely well known as The Hobbit or LOTR. The other issue is that whilst the other Tolkien stories are within Middle Earth they're not directly connected to the stories that have been told so far on film. It may as well be a brand new franchise in that regard. It's all moot anyway, if Chris Tolkien has some form of credit for most of his father's posthumous works and doesn't want to sell the rights then it'll be long after you and I have been buried that those stories will ever have a chance of seeing the light of day on film.

 

[DarkSentinel]

Last Middle-earth movie this year, first of a new Saga next year...fandoms at war..I mean wuuutt...

They could, I'm just saying it's there, but if they really wanna milk it there's some awesome stuff in the Appendices, particularly the history of Gondor in Appendix D I believe. The whole story of Eldacar Vinitharya and Castamir the Usurper and the Kin-strife would be a great realistic medieval fantasy film to see on screen.

In addition, you could go all the ****ing way and make a saga of the "Fall of Gondor", with that, the war with the Wainriders and the Battle of the Camp, and ending with Eärnil going to face the Witch-king one on one in Minas Morgul. You make a small narrative change that links all three by giving the Witch-king a presence in the first two.

The Fall of Arnor is something else entirely. And still awesome.

So yeah, **** you, Star Wars.




EDIT: I see we're already on the same page, Marv.

 

[DarkSentinel]

Not to put too fine a point on it but sometimes it's not about money.

This. A thousand times over.

 

[Marvolo]

Of course every story has potential, but the brand recognition for Middle Earth has been used up. You're really stretching it if you're trying to convince me The Silmarillion or Children of Hurin is as widely well known as The Hobbit or LOTR. The other issue is that whilst the other Tolkien stories are within Middle Earth they're not directly connected to the stories that have been told so far on film. It may as well be a brand new franchise in that regard. It's all moot anyway, if Chris Tolkien has some form of credit for most of his father's posthumous works and doesn't want to sell the rights then it'll be long after you and I have been buried that those stories will ever have a chance of seeing the light of day on film.

And before Jackson's LOTR me and a bunch of other people didnt know who JRR Tolkien was or anything about his stories and many who did know of them thought it was just nerd stuff. Jackson's films changed all that.

I really dont see how the brand recognition of Middle Earth has been used up. People will always recognize middle earth, and they genuinely love that universe beyond just the characters in these films. And you say the Silmarillion stuff doesn't connect to anything in LOTR. Morgoth was Sauron's master. Aragorn is a descendant of the Númenóreans. Elrond was alive during the time of those stories. Shelob is a descendant of Ungoliant who was mentioned by Rhadagast. Sauron himself was alive for thousands of years prior to the War of the Ring.
Gondolin has been mentioned several times in the films. Etc. But I dont think new films would need to connect directly to the war of the ring plot to be viable as long as its set in Middle Earth.

WB is bank rolling three new films set in the Harry Potter universe set 70 years before harry was even born and it doesnt involve any characters from the previous films or Hogwarts. And they are still using the established Potter brand to promote this new trilogy. They aren't going to just ignore that brand and let it go unused just because Harry potter's story is done and he isn't in this new trilogy. So why should we think they would consider the Middle Earth brand used up just because the characters and story in the six films is finished?

 

[Marvolo]

Found this on tumblr:

 

[jmc]

And before Jackson's LOTR me and a bunch of other people didnt know who JRR Tolkien was or anything about his stories and many who did know of them thought it was just nerd stuff. Jackson's films changed all that.

I really dont see how the brand recognition of Middle Earth has been used up. People will always recognize middle earth, and they genuinely love that universe beyond just the characters in these films. And you say the Silmarillion stuff doesn't connect to anything in LOTR. Morgoth was Sauron's master. Aragorn is a descendant of the Númenóreans. Elrond was alive during the time of those stories. Shelob is a descendant of Ungoliant who was mentioned by Rhadagast. Sauron himself was alive for thousands of years prior to the War of the Ring.
Gondolin has been mentioned several times in the films. Etc. But I dont think new films would need to connect directly to the war of the ring plot to be viable as long as its set in Middle Earth.

WB is bank rolling three new films set in the Harry Potter universe set 70 years before harry was even born and it doesnt involve any characters from the previous films or Hogwarts. And they are still using the established Potter brand to promote this new trilogy. They aren't going to just ignore that brand and let it go unused just because Harry potter's story is done and he isn't in this new trilogy. So why should we think they would consider the Middle Earth brand used up just because the characters and story in the six films is finished?

First, LOTR is one of the most read pieces of literature in history and had been for the best part of 40 years prior to the films ever getting released. To say it was only a nerd thing is completely misinformed. Second, Middle Earth may be more than The Hobbit and LOTR, but it doesn't mean those other stories will appeal to audiences especially if only a few noticeable characters are present. Third, and this is the obvious reason nothing is going to eventuate, the Tolkien estate doesn't want to do anymore Middle Earth adaptations. Money isn't the issue with them, they've earned more than enough in the decades since Tolkien died, it's now about preserving the work of Tolkien. I know it's hard to believe people may actually baulk at the idea of being paid squillions of dollars for use of their work but for some artistic integrity is important and doesn't have a dollar value. Add to that Chris Tolkiens contributions to his late father's work and you've got a situation where these other stories won't be available for adaptation until long after both of us are dead.

 

[Marvolo]

For those who want to spoil the whole film or book fans who just want to know how much is changed, here is a breakdown of the entire film. Pretty much talks about every single scene. Spoilers ahead obviously:

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=943177

For everyone else, Ill just post the person's overall thoughts:

All in all, I loved it. It’s absolutely not going to convert anybody who hated the previous Hobbit movies. If you enjoyed the first two, you’ll love this.

However, it’s very much an action-movie first. I can feel moments where scenes will likely be Extended next year with the Extended Edition.

Very much like Desolation of Smaug, prior to the release of the EE recently, it feels like they cut out most of the ‘slow’, character-driven moments to avoid criticism. These usually turn out to be the best scenes too and it’s a shame that Peter was affected by the negative criticism so much.

The majority of Dwarves in Thorin’s company had zero lines. Only the main ones (i.e. Balin, Dwalin, Fili and Kili.)

Beorn has seconds of screentime and his introduction in the theatrical version of Smaug seems almost pointless with how little screentime he has here, there’s zero payoff for his character.

Major Spoiler in the tags below. Those who haven't read the book should not open it.

Spoiler

There’s no implication of Dain becoming King after Thorin dies. He has zero scenes after the battle. The Dwarves and Bilbo’s parting felt colder than it should have. It was very brief.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

So Marvolo, is this where you admit the early review was not fake?

 

[Marvolo]

First, LOTR is one of the most read pieces of literature in history and had been for the best part of 40 years prior to the films ever getting released. To say it was only a nerd thing is completely misinformed.

I didn't say it was only a nerd thing. I said more than a few people thought it was only for nerds and that is not misinformed or wrong.

"Middle Earth may be more than The Hobbit and LOTR, but it doesn't mean those other stories will appeal to audiences especially if only a few noticeable characters are present."

Before FOTR came out a lot of people didn't know who Aragorn Gandalf or Frodo were either. Not everyone had read those books. Not everyone had heard of those characters. Yet they gave the films a chance and many fell in love with the films. If people who have never heard of or know nothing about the War of the Ring characters can enjoy them they could enjoy Silmarillion characters.

Also, you keep ignoring the fact that people don't just go see these films for the characters. Middle Earth on screen is very popular, the battles are very popular, the action, the epicness, the quality, the scope of it all. The stories in the Silmarillion offer all that and good characters so I don't know why you refuse to acknowledge that that material would appeal to the public.

Third, and this is the obvious reason nothing is going to eventuate, the Tolkien estate doesn't want to do anymore Middle Earth adaptations. Money isn't the issue with them, they've earned more than enough in the decades since Tolkien died, it's now about preserving the work of Tolkien. I know it's hard to believe people may actually baulk at the idea of being paid squillions of dollars for use of their work but for some artistic integrity is important and doesn't have a dollar value. Add to that Chris Tolkiens contributions to his late father's work and you've got a situation where these other stories won't be available for adaptation until long after both of us are dead.

You are the one that keeps bringing up the money thing. I didn't say they should do it for money. There is money to be made yes but that isn't their only reason. Some in the estate actually enjoy the films and see the potential these stories have. And Chris is from what I've read only considered an editor of the Silmarillion. I'm not an expert on copyright laws in Britain or America but I'm not sure if an editor can make the same claims on a material that the author can. And even if Chris has total control over his father's works right now he is in his 80s. After he is gone the estate will control the rights to the material, and can allow it to be made into films if they so choose.

You've made it clear you don't think more films will happen. That's fine. There's little point in arguing about this, but there's no use acting like other epic battles and epic fantasy stories set in Middle Earth wouldnt appeal to the public. We both know they would.

Since making more films in no way impedes the estates ability to preserve Tolkien's legacy they can allow films to be made and still accomplish their goals of preserving Tolkien's legacy.

All we can do is wait and see what happens in the future. Chris isn't the only voice in the estate and he is no spring chicken. One day a more open minded sensible person could take his place. We aren't guaranteed , but it could happen. Stranger things have happened.

 

[regwec]

I don't necessarily think movie adaptations of the Silmarillion etc are a good idea, particularly in the crass, dumbed-down style of the Hobbit movies. I have absolutely no doubt that they would be a big financial success, however. The phrase "Middle Earth", the Tolkien name, the Tolkien monogram, Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, Dragons, magic jewels, fairy tale cities and epic battles all contribute to a sizeable brand equity; ensuring the movies are actually good, hiring a director who knows what they are doing, and releasing them to fill what has become a traditional Christmas slot for fantasy could hardly result in failure.