Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - - Part 16

[regwec]

At the last moment, he realised how he had undervalued Faramir. I seem to recall this even happens in the movie.

 

[Boom]

Gandalf is a steward sent by the Valar. His role is to counsel and serve the people's of Middle-earth against Sauron.

In the book, Denethor gives Gandalf control of the city because he has given up all hope. In the movie, Gandalf assaults the acting Lord of Minas Tirith (an act that Eru would have struck him dead for) and all but usurps command.

In the book, Gandalf is horrified as Denethor leaps onto the pyre. In the movie, Gandalf basically kills him.

Jackson's handling of Denethor would have had Tolkien rolling from grave to grave.

 

[Marvolo]

Denethor was an antagonist?

Well in the film yeah. He was insane and everything he was doing was putting Minas Tirith and it's people in danger. I don't consider him evil, but he was an antagonist working against Gandalf a protagonist.

For the record, I'm not a fan of film Denethor. Never have been. John Noble does good with what he's given, but Jackson just turned him into an angry insane *****e who liked to yell. He is the bottom of the barrel as far as characters go, and not even a foil for the heroes that you can love to hate. It's just straight up hate. It's the only reason I was ok with Gandalf hitting him. It was a relief to just see anyone do it and get him out of the way for a bit cause I wanted to do it myself so so much. But yeah Tolkien would have flipped **** over Gandalf and Denethor's behavior in ROTK.

 

[Octoberist]

In the film, I would say yes, he was an antagonist, especially to a person who hasn't read the books.

 

[Marvolo]

Jackson could have made Denethor much more sympathetic had he shown that Denethor had been using a palantir. Jackson in the commentary acknowledges that Minas Tirith possessed one, and Denethor all but tells Gandalf he'd been looking into one, but In not sure the general audience got what he was saying or realized that Sauron may have been manipulating him through it.

 

[DigificWriter]

I think Denethor is plenty sympathetic in the film adaptations of both The Two Towers and The Return of the King (and I haven't actually made it through any of the books despite loving the basic story and the characters and world of Middle-Earth).

I've been watching the Extended Edition for The Desolation of Smaug, and was struck by just how much the writers' handling of Thranduil - and Lee Pace's portrayal of the character - reminded me of John Noble's Denethor. I loved the character of Thranduil from when I saw TDoS in theaters, but didn't realize until now just how similar his character is to Denethor's in terms of what the writers do with him.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Yes, because the writers try to mimic LOTR as much as possible in the Hobbit trilogy. Hence Tauriel and Kili, aka discount Arwen and pint-sized Aragorn.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ Tauriel and Kili's relationship and interaction is far more similar to the way that Arwen interacts with Frodo than to the way Arwen and Aragorn interact, but that's beside the point.

Thranduil and Denethor are both characters who have - or would - cut themselves and their people off from all others due to trauma, and that's something that goes far beyond just what the writers have done with their Middle-Earth Saga. It's an archetype that you can find in countless different places.

 

[Marvolo]

Film spoilers from the Five Armies movie tie-in books.

Spoiler

Jude Fisher’s Visual Companion

Goblins may appear in The Battle of Five Armies? The book talks about the Goblins of the Misty Mountains hating the sun and needing manufactured night if they are to fight.
Different types of trolls that appear in The Battle of Five Armies: Snow Trolls (only before seen in a Lord of the Rings video game), Cave Trolls, and Olog-hai.
Thranduil designed the necklace of gems that the dwarves withhold for his wife, and ‘in his mind it was the last thing he owned that reminded him of his dead wife’.


The Movie Story Book

Tauriel and Legolas will help the Lake-town folk regroup before heading North.
Tauriel leaves the dwarves on the shores of the lake, to join Legolas on ‘urgent business in the North’. [Analysis: so is that actually Bard’s white horse riding away from Erebor in the trailer, rather than Tauriel’s?]
Sauron is ‘keeping his prisoner [Gandalf] alive to seek out the truth as to who holds the three Elven Rings of power’.
The book names the necklace Thranduil wants back from Thorin as ‘the Gems of Lasgalen’. It is not the Nauglamir, just some ‘gems of the greenleaves’.
Thorin believes one of the company of dwarves has stolen the Arkenstone.
Bolg is referred to as ‘the spawn of Azog the Defiler’. This may be the first PJverse confirmation that, as in the book, Bolg is Azog’s son.

Brian Sibley’s Official Movie Guide

It took the team at Weta six months to digitally paint Smaug.
The reason Bilbo takes off the Ring is because Smaug felt the ring. Smaug is such a powerful creature it doesn’t make sense he wouldn’t feel it. They also did it because the audience might get bored if Bilbo remained too long in “Ringworld”.
Smaug and Sauron were not in an alliance. Yet…
Hugo Weaving had nicknames for folks. He was Elrondo, Sir Ian was Gandy, Cate was Gladys.
Sauron tries to tempt Galadriel in Dol Guldur. We get to see her full power during these sequences. She also uses Black Speech to talk back to Sauron during this scene.
We will see new creatures such as burrowing serpent-like worms, giant shrews, and moles.

And supposedly this quote is from the Visual Guide:

the battle of pelennor, comparated to this (The Battle of the Five Armies), looks like a cricket match" ,

Spoiler

I hope the giant shrews, moles, and worms are actually freaky and surprising and not silly looking.

And it sounds like Galadriel is gonna have another one of her "moments" like what she did in FOTR. I know she possesses a ring of power, but exactly how much power does she have. Isn't she just an elf? A very old elf, but an elf nonetheless.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I'm glad about the Bolg thing. I was really interested going into Desolation how they would reference that familial connection, especially with Azog alive and able to interact. It disappointing that they ignored it.

 

[Silvermoth]

Can't wait! My friends and I are going to book our tickets for imax very soon!

I'm really going to miss it as my friends and I really look forward to it every year

 

[regwec]

Gandalf is a steward sent by the Valar. His role is to counsel and serve the people's of Middle-earth against Sauron.

In the book, Denethor gives Gandalf control of the city because he has given up all hope. In the movie, Gandalf assaults the acting Lord of Minas Tirith (an act that Eru would have struck him dead for) and all but usurps command.

In the book, Gandalf is horrified as Denethor leaps onto the pyre. In the movie, Gandalf basically kills him.

Jackson's handling of Denethor would have had Tolkien rolling from grave to grave.

The fact that Denethor's demise was implicitly a failure of Gandalf's is also missed.

There is an obvious analogy between Denethor and Theoden (both reigning "kings" whose authority is legalistically subsidiary to Aragorn's, both in a depression having recently lost favoured sons, both under a "spell" of the enemy of some sort, both in command of military strength that must be used against that enemy; even their names are thinly veiled anagrams of one another's). While Gandalf is able to heal Theoden (by exposing him to the outside world and showing him that its reality is not to bleak in the book, by engaging in a magical duel with Saruman in the movies), he cannot achieve the same with Denethor. in part, they may be a result of Denethor's inferior character, in that he is jealous of his status as Steward, while Theoden accepts Aragorn as rightful king of Arnor as well as Gondor. It may also be that Denethor's depression is largely self-induced and results from his intellectual exploration using the palantir and his logical deductions from that. But the fact remains that Gandalf cannot rid Denethor of Sauron's influence in the same way that he rid Theoden of Saruman's.

In context, I think that is clearly supposed to act in concert with Gandalf being bested by the Witch King, to demonstrate that his powers have reached their limits. On the frontline, facing Sauron's evil magic and his daemonic armies, all Gandalf can do is raise the troops' spirits, and hold the line. Victory can only come from the tale's two major protagonists- Frodo and Aragorn- achieving their independent destinies in pursuit of the common purpose.

In that respect, Gandalf murdering and deposing Denethor perverts much more than Gandalf's character: it undermines the narrative structure and tension in the whole story at this point.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Film spoilers from the Five Armies movie tie-in books.

Spoiler

Smaug is such a powerful creature it doesn’t make sense he wouldn’t feel it. They also did it because the audience might get bored if Bilbo remained too long in “Ringworld”.

Both stupid reasons.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Excellent analysis up there, regwec.

 

[Marvolo]

Both stupid reasons.

Im actually really really glad Bilbo takes the ring off. Having those scenes between Bilbo and Smaug coated in that smeared ring world effect would have been horrid.

In the DOS commentary Jackson doesnt say the audience would get bored of the ringworld. He said he thought they'd get tired of that visual effect after prolonged periods and he's got a valid point. That effect is fine in small doses, but no one wants to see 20 minutes of it. Maybe if the Smaug Bilbo conversation lasted only a few minutes then it would have been ok.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The problem was establishing the ring world in the manner he did in the first place. But I didn't have problem with him removing the ring. I liked the dynamic, especially with Freeman's physical comedy. His attempts to appease Smaug work even better as Smaug looks on amused.

 

[Boom]

The fact that Denethor's demise was implicitly a failure of Gandalf's is also missed.

There is an obvious analogy between Denethor and Theoden (both reigning "kings" whose authority is legalistically subsidiary to Aragorn's, both in a depression having recently lost favoured sons, both under a "spell" of the enemy of some sort, both in command of military strength that must be used against that enemy; even their names are thinly veiled anagrams of one another's). While Gandalf is able to heal Theoden (by exposing him to the outside world and showing him that its reality is not to bleak in the book, by engaging in a magical duel with Saruman in the movies), he cannot achieve the same with Denethor. in part, they may be a result of Denethor's inferior character, in that he is jealous of his status as Steward, while Theoden accepts Aragorn as rightful king of Arnor as well as Gondor. It may also be that Denethor's depression is largely self-induced and results from his intellectual exploration using the palantir and his logical deductions from that. But the fact remains that Gandalf cannot rid Denethor of Sauron's influence in the same way that he rid Theoden of Saruman's.

In context, I think that is clearly supposed to act in concert with Gandalf being bested by the Witch King, to demonstrate that his powers have reached their limits. On the frontline, facing Sauron's evil magic and his daemonic armies, all Gandalf can do is raise the troops' spirits, and hold the line. Victory can only come from the tale's two major protagonists- Frodo and Aragorn- achieving their independent destinies in pursuit of the common purpose.

In that respect, Gandalf murdering and deposing Denethor perverts much more than Gandalf's character: it undermines the narrative structure and tension in the whole story at this point.

Beautifully put.

For the record, I absolutely hate the Witchking destroying Gandalf's staff in the film.

 

[DigificWriter]

I'm excited to see The Battle of the Five Armies in theaters, but am also really looking forward to the day when I can watch all of the Middle-earth Saga in chronological order one after the other. It's going to be a treat to track the story of Tolkien's myth - "as interpreted by Jackson" - from beginning to end and compare, contrast, and analyze the six films as a cohesive package.

 

[ares834]

Film spoilers from the Five Armies movie tie-in books.


And supposedly this quote is from the Visual Guide:

Spoiler

I hope the giant shrews, moles, and worms are actually freaky and surprising and not silly looking.

And it sounds like Galadriel is gonna have another one of her "moments" like what she did in FOTR. I know she possesses a ring of power, but exactly how much power does she have. Isn't she just an elf? A very old elf, but an elf nonetheless.

Spoiler

Nah, not "just an elf". Tolkien himself claims she is one of the greatest of the Eldar and lists her alongside Feanor. Feanor, of course, was a master smith greater even than Sauron and it took a group of Balrogs to kill him. Of course, there are plenty of other incredibly powerful elves such as Fingolfin, Fingon, and (Galadriel's own brother) Finrod. So Galadriel should be incredibly powerful.

 

[Silvermoon]

For those so inclined, the live stream of the premiere just started:

http://hobbitworldpremierelive.uk/

Can't really watch myself (stupid typical Monday at work combined with having to get the November end of month report done *sigh*) - hopefully the entire thing will be available to watch in full later for those of us that can't watch it live

 

[Doc Ock]

For those so inclined, the live stream of the premiere just started:

http://hobbitworldpremierelive.uk/

Can't really watch myself (stupid typical Monday at work combined with having to get the November end of month report done *sigh*) - hopefully the entire thing will be available to watch in full later for those of us that can't watch it live

Jerk, now I can't stop watching this.

 

[Venomfan]

apparently Billy Connelly has been replaced by CGI Dain...
Dain and Beorn were the things i was most looking forward to in this movie, and Beorn

Spoiler

getting roughly 15 seconds of screen time

and this really ruins it for me. hopefully the rumours are false. I was sure this would be the easiest one not to screw up

 

[DigificWriter]

apparently Billy Connelly has been replaced by CGI Dain...
Dain and Beorn were the things i was most looking forward to in this movie, and Beorn

Spoiler

getting roughly 15 seconds of screen time

and this really ruins it for me. hopefully the rumours are false. I was sure this would be the easiest one not to screw up

Can you provide a source for where you heard this information? TOrN has nothing about it on their site, and they are generally regarded as the 'go-to' when it comes to info about anything Tolkien-related or anything related to the films.

 

[regwec]

I really can't see how having a CGI named character with a human face could work. Having said that, little remains of Orlando Bloom in what we see of Legolas.

 

[Venomfan]

Can you provide a source for where you heard this information? TOrN has nothing about it on their site, and they are generally regarded as the 'go-to' when it comes to info about anything Tolkien-related or anything related to the films.

http://newboards.theonering.net/for...rum_view=forum_view_collapsed;guest=125835250