Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - - Part 16

[Boom]

That fight scene was in fact so pointless that Bolg just kind of abruptly stops fighting and walks away with no repercussions. It was actually kind of bizarre.

I remember audibly laughing because the Orcs spend the entire ****ing movie chasing the main characters, and when the Orcs get to Lake-town and find that Thorin isn't there (a fact that the audience was in on for the previous twenty minutes) Bolg immediately tells them to fall back. They spent literally two hours chasing them, and the payoff is for them to simply regroup yet again.

So utterly pointless. There only to fabricate a loose story reason to have Legolas and Tauriel in Lake-town just in time for Smaug's attack. Which is also utterly pointless.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Darth, the battles in LOTR look much better. Most of the orcs in closeup weren't CGI. The battles had weight and oomph to them, and the CGI complemented rather than outweighed the special effects. There were still ridiculous moments though that I've critiqued before, like the Army of the Dead and Legolas' oliphaunt surfing.

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to prove that Legolas' scenes don't have a point. How do you prove that something doesn't exist? Gandalf's scenes do have a point, though they are poorly executed... at least they somewhat reflect the appendices to LOTR and Unfinished Tales, even if PJ butchered many of the in-universe facts of the story. Legolas is just thrown in to be an action character, and is given awkwardly placed actions scenes to facilitate that. I could not care less about his fight with Bolg, which was just empty and meaningless to me.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I'm not going to see this film in theatre, by the way. I seriously doubt I'll even watch it at home. Maybe if I rent it for free.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Man...all this hate... Oh well. I might see this or hold off a bit - dunno which. I hope this isn't a sore thumb like DoS was...I felt it deviated far too much from the book. Like seriously? I could take a nap while the orcs were chasing the group and wake up when they're in lake town lol.

 

[Boom]

Cut Legolas and Tauriel out completely and what do you lose exactly?

 

[ThePhantasm]

At least when that head uruk (Lurtz?) in FOTR pursued the Fellowship, that plot line climaxed in the capture of Merry and Pippin, the death of Boromir, and a sweet duel between Aragorn and the uruk. There was buildup and a payoff.

We've seen Azog purue Thorin for about a film and a half, only to abandon the chase, which is continued by Bolg, who also abandons the chase after a brief fight with one single elf.

Dramatic tension? Noooope.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Darth, the battles in LOTR look much better. Most of the orcs in closeup weren't CGI. The battles had weight and oomph to them, and the CGI complemented rather than outweighed the special effects. There were still ridiculous moments though that I've critiqued before, like the Army of the Dead and Legolas' oliphaunt surfing.

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to prove that Legolas' scenes don't have a point. How do you prove that something doesn't exist? Gandalf's scenes do have a point, though they are poorly executed... at least they somewhat reflect the appendices to LOTR and Unfinished Tales, even if PJ butchered many of the in-universe facts of the story. Legolas is just thrown in to be an action character, and is given awkwardly placed actions scenes to facilitate that. I could not care less about his fight with Bolg, which was just empty and meaningless to me.

I love Fellowship and Two Towers. The battles do not all look better. Do some? Yes. Namely Weathertop, the Mines of Moria and Amon Hen. Everything else is on par in terms of look. The Two Towers started the CGI on CGI battles, and it has continued since.

And you prove it by showing and example of what the problem is. Not just say it is boring. Gandalf's scenes might have a point, but the point undermines the main plot, which is why they shouldn't be there. Look at the trailers for the final film and you know exactly what the problem is. Instead of the tale of Bilbo and Thorin, this has become about the War of the Ring. It misses the entire point. Just because the material is in the appendics doesn't mean a thing. If it was important to the Hobbit story, it would have been in the story.

Legolas in there to represent the Elves, which is important considering their place in the finale of the story. He is leaked to the leader of the Elves and is a familiar face.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Cut Legolas and Tauriel out completely and what do you lose exactly?

The best action in the movies, and some of the best lines and moments. Plus you lose the one relevant Elven presence.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Some of the best lines... ???!?!?!?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

At least when that head uruk (Lurtz?) in FOTR pursued the Fellowship, that plot line climaxed in the capture of Merry and Pippin, the death of Boromir, and a sweet duel between Aragorn and the uruk. There was buildup and a payoff.

We've seen Azog purue Thorin for about a film and a half, only to abandon the chase, which is continued by Bolg, who also abandons the chase after a brief fight with one single elf.

Dramatic tension? Noooope.

That is a function of the stupid idea of making it 3 films. Something I said would happen from the beginning but no one here wanted to listen.

 

[Boom]

At least when that head uruk (Lurtz?) in FOTR pursued the Fellowship, that plot line climaxed in the capture of Merry and Pippin, the death of Boromir, and a sweet duel between Aragorn and the uruk. There was buildup and a payoff.

We've seen Azog purue Thorin for about a film and a half, only to abandon the chase, which is continued by Bolg, who also abandons the chase after a brief fight with one single elf.

Dramatic tension? Noooope.

It's a faux threat. At no point throughout this do you fear for the dwarves at all. I mean hell. When you've got them bouncing down caverns at tremendous speed without so much as a scratch, what is there to fear?

 

[ThePhantasm]

That is a function of the stupid idea of making it 3 films. Something I said would happen from the beginning but no one here wanted to listen.

I don't see how you can be against three films but for the addition of pointless fight scenes featuring Legolas. Those seem like self-defeating desires.

But at least you agree with me that those sequences lack dramatic tension.

It's a faux threat. At no point throughout this do you fear for the dwarves at all. I mean hell. When you've got them bouncing down caverns at tremendous speed without so much as a scratch, what is there to fear?

Exactly. Its all about visuals and not about the story. Stories have drama and suspense. CGI sludgefests have cartoon physics and boring, pointless battles.

 

[Boom]

The best action in the movies, and some of the best lines and moments. Plus you lose the one relevant Elven presence.

We are agreeing to disagree on that first one, my friend. Legolas is a caricature at this point and his action scenes are so over-the-top and bombastic that they are not in the slightest bit entertaining to me anymore. It's just mind numbingly stupid.

The Elven presence is not necessary to that extent. Again, if they had remained faithful to the text, the Mirkwood elves serve as antagonists up until the confrontation at the gates of Erebor, and their purpose there is to highlight Bilbo's selflessness in [blackout]giving Thorin's prized jewel to the perceived enemy of the dwarves[/blackout]. That is their function in the narrative, and it doesn't really need to go beyond that.

None of this (the Gandalf subplot, Legolas and Tauriel, resurrecting Azog for no reason) is necessary to telling The Hobbit.

 

[jmc]

What's the consensus so far?

 

[redhawk23]

The best action in the movies, and some of the best lines and moments. Plus you lose the one relevant Elven presence.

That's exactly the problem though isn't it? That so much focus in the writing and directing has been given to building up Legolas? He has the best lines and the best action because the filmmakers chose for it to be that way. We have here a series called The Hobbit, that's actually about Dwarves who are supplanted by Wizards and Legolas.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Some of the best lines... ???!?!?!?

Lines might be stretching it, but I love his introduction and find the scenes with his father and Tauriel work well. I like seeing how the Elves are dealing with these situations.

You bring up the Bolg scene, but that isn't a Legolas problem that you don't feel anything it is the lack of characterization of Bolg. This goes back to problems with the writing in the first place. If they simply filled the role of Azog and Bolg with Bolg, it could have worked beautifully. But instead of having one interesting baddie, we are left with two incomplete and two rather unattractive characters.

Thorin kills Azog, Bolg swears his revenge and chases Thorin. How hard is that?

 

[Marvolo]

I am going to go see it in the theater as well. But that doesn't mean you have to defend these films in such a manner that presents an excuse for all the decision Jackson has made.

And if he did take the criticisms to heart, he seems to have missed the point still. Cutting the story of the main plotline is not what should have.

Saying I hope the EE fixes things isn't defending the decisions of Jackson. As for Dain, if he is cut so much that he only appears on his war pig ram thing briefly then him being all cgi really doesnt matter to me. I exoected him to be cgi on that thing in some scenes. The bigger issue is that Billy Connolly was given the shaft which is something I can't defend. He was one of the things I was looking forward to the most.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't see how you can be against three films but for the addition of pointless fight scenes featuring Legolas. Those seem like self-defeating desires.

But at least you agree with me that those sequences lack dramatic tension.

Because Legolas scenes are clearly not a function of extending the story. Legolas doesn't take up mountains of time and interacts with relevant characters. The numerous flashbacks, the Gandalf stuff, the Radagast scenes, whatever you want to call that "Smaug" fight. That is the problem. Those the tangents and time sinks.

Exactly. Its all about visuals and not about the story. Stories have drama and suspense. CGI sludgefests have cartoon physics and boring, pointless battles.

So you don't like The Avengers or LotR? You won't be watching AoU either I presume.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

We are agreeing to disagree on that first one, my friend. Legolas is a caricature at this point and his action scenes are so over-the-top and bombastic that they are not in the slightest bit entertaining to me anymore. It's just mind numbingly stupid.

The Elven presence is not necessary to that extent. Again, if they had remained faithful to the text, the Mirkwood elves serve as antagonists up until the confrontation at the gates of Erebor, and their purpose there is to highlight Bilbo's selflessness in [blackout]giving Thorin's prized jewel to the perceived enemy of the dwarves[/blackout]. That is their function in the narrative, and it doesn't really need to go beyond that.

None of this (the Gandalf subplot, Legolas and Tauriel, resurrecting Azog for no reason) is necessary to telling The Hobbit.

No, the Smaug "fight" is mind numbingly stupid. Legolas actually has a real sword fight.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Saying I hope the EE fixes things isn't defending the decisions of Jackson.

It is excusing what he has done by giving him an out. I am sure in a year you will be here to tell us how he saved this film with the EE.

 

[terry78]

Avengers gets a pass on semi wacky CG antics because in the books they actually have survived weird **** like that and it was seen on page.

 

[Boom]

Thorin kills Azog, Bolg swears his revenge and chases Thorin. How hard is that?

Not in the least bit.

Boyens: "Well in our movie, Azog is the principal villain. The only problem is, chronologically speaking, he is dead by the time the dwarves set out on their quest. How do we fix that? Throw canon out the window and just keep him alive."

Fan: "But isn't there already an Orc commander during the time of The Hobbit? Bolg? He's Azog's son isn't he?"

Boyens: "Well yes, but we need Bolg to take up the fruitless chase while Azog gathers Sauron's forces for battle."

Fan: "This is about the hobbit, right?"

Boyens: "Well, Tolkien had started a revised, better version of The Hobbit that brought it closer to Lord of the Rings, but he abandoned it for some reason."

Fan: "Because The Hobbit was losing its identity."

Boyens: "Who can remember? Anyway, we are more interested in exploring the bigger picture of what's happening in Middle-earth rather than simply adapting The Hobbit. Finishing what Tolkien started, basically."

Fan: "Started, and chose not to finish."

Boyens: "Who can say?"

Fan: "It sounds to me that you're not so much interested in The Hobbit as you are in the overall Middle-earth mythos as they pertain to The Lord of the Rings."

Boyens: "The bigger picture is always better for three movies."

Fan: "Three movies?"

Boyens: "Well there is so much material with Inspector Gandalf and dwelf romances and Lake-town politics that we felt two films weren't sufficient. It's three films now."

Fan: "So why is this called The Hobbit exactly? It seems like nothing more than a footnote here. Everything happening as mere mechanisms moving the 'bigger picture.' It seems you are doing everything in your power to make it anything BUT The Hobbit."

Boyens: "It's in the spirit of Tolkien."

Fan: "Sounds like you guys weren't the best fit for this adaptation. You clearly have no faith in the story based on its own merits. In your minds, The Hobbit is only interesting if you stuff in all these Lord of the Rings tie-ins that do nothing but make Bilbo's story look inconsequential by comparison. How is it 'in the spirit of Tolkien' to break canon and willfully lose sight of the narrative being adapted?"

Boyens: "You'll find out in the extended edition."

 

[Marvolo]

It is excusing what he has done by giving him an out. I am sure in a year you will be here to tell us how he saved this film with the EE.

I haven't excused it or given him an out. Ive said I dont think hes made good decisions with the TC's of these films. I said it about DOS and and Ive said it about what Im hearing with BTFA. And yeah if the EE of this film fixes the problems I had with the film Im gonna say it fixed the problems I had with the film. I never hid the fact I didnt like DOS's TC, and Ive been straight forward about my thoughts on the EE of DOS. To this day I do not like the TC of DOS. If every dvd and blu-ray and digital copy of that cut vanished from existence tomorrow I wouldnt feel any regret. But I do enjoy the EE. It may be the same with this film. Idk yet.

And I've always tried to see things from the directors point of view if for no other reason than to break up the monotony that pervades a thread full of negativity. Just ranting against a director's decisions doesnt make for a very good discussion. I prefer to think about why he might have made this decision or that decision. Just because I understand Jackson's motivations or try to doesn't mean I approve of what he does. Understanding and approval are two very different things.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Not in the least bit.

Boyens: "Well in our movie, Azog is the principal villain. The only problem is, chronologically speaking, he is dead by the time the dwarves set out on their quest. How do we fix that? Throw canon out the window and just keep him alive."

Fan: "But isn't there already an Orc commander during the time of The Hobbit? Bolg? He's Azog's son isn't he?"

Boyens: "Well yes, but we need Bolg to take up the fruitless chase while Azog gathers Sauron's forces for battle."

Fan: "This is about the hobbit, right?"

Boyens: "Well, Tolkien had started a revised, better version of The Hobbit that brought it closer to Lord of the Rings, but he abandoned it for some reason."

Fan: "Because The Hobbit was losing its identity."

Boyens: "Who can remember? Anyway, we are more interested in exploring the bigger picture of what's happening in Middle-earth rather than simply adapting The Hobbit. Finishing what Tolkien started, basically."

Fan: "Started, and chose not to finish."

Boyens: "Who can say?"

Fan: "It sounds to me that you're not so much interested in The Hobbit as you are in the overall Middle-earth mythos as they pertain to The Lord of the Rings."

Boyens: "The bigger picture is always better for three movies."

Fan: "Three movies?"

Boyens: "Well there is so much material with Inspector Gandalf and dwelf romances and Lake-town politics that we felt two films weren't sufficient. It's three films now."

Fan: "So why is this called The Hobbit exactly? It seems like nothing more than a footnote here. Everything happening as mere mechanisms moving the 'bigger picture.' It seems you are doing everything in your power to make it anything BUT The Hobbit."

Boyens: "It's in the spirit of Tolkien."

 

[Marvolo]

Thorin kills Azog, Bolg swears his revenge and chases Thorin. How hard is that?

its the logical story arc and one me and you and a few others have suggested or assumed would take place since the AUJ days. I guess now we know Jackson didnt do it so he could have both Bolg and Azog play a part in BTFA. If it was between Bolg and Azog having a part in BTFA and Thorin not looking like a total ***** at the end of AUJ I choose Thorin not looking like a total *****.