Official The Ultimates Thread

[i'm Spider-Man]

I just can't believe that some of you were pulling for the enemy.

... you assume that everybody's on America's side.

 

[Trask]

Sorry that didn't happen for you! Cap gave that punk more than he could handle...experience or otherwise!!

Capt. Jihad had to call in his boys to help him?? WoW!! What a wuss!! Then he was gonna cut off Cap's head while they held him down?? What an honorable man. And some of you were roooting for this guy?? LOL

Cap was at least willing to go down to the end...man to man!! The assist Cap got he didn't ask for...but he deserved it!! Especially after that punk move by ol' Abdul.

Not to put a lot of holes in your statment but we have seen Cap do similar things when the battle does not go his way. Have you forgotten the number of times he has used force of number on enemies when he was unable to beat the opponent on his own, or used weapons other than his shield in order to gain the upper hand. For you to now condemn another person for doing the same thing simply because Cap is on the reciving end is a bit hipocritical.

Personally I dont mind a person using any means available to him/her to defeat the enemy, because this is after all for all intents and purposes a war, and for a person to loose a fight due to some misplaced idea of honor or chivelry is just plain stupid. Cap would be the first to find and use any and all advantages available to him, weather it is overwhelming numbers or superior weapons. The only reason Cap fought one to one in that fight was because he had no choice, not because he wanted to.

 

[The Question]

Well, Cap does have a sense of honor when fighting. But not to the point of stupidity.

 

[celldog]

You know, I think I'd have prefered to see Abdul live. Simply because, in the wake of the invasion, SHEILD and The Ultimates may become truely international instead of representing the Western nations, and Adbul and the Liberators would be forced to join to keep the poloticians on both sides happy.

What a shame that would be. t:

 

[celldog]

Not to put a lot of holes in your statment but we have seen Cap do similar things when the battle does not go his way. Have you forgotten the number of times he has used force of number on enemies when he was unable to beat the opponent on his own, or used weapons other than his shield in order to gain the upper hand. For you to now condemn another person for doing the same thing simply because Cap is on the reciving end is a bit hipocritical.


[B]PuhhhleeeeeeZZZ!!! LOL! Tell me you're kiddin'!! This battle between between Capt. Jihad and Rogers was suppose to be man-to-man. Jihad was like "no one interfere". Ulti-Cap was down , for that. And he stuck to the plan!! That was a punk's way out for Abdul!! If no rules were laid down, then your argument would be valid. It's like me and you agreeing on no weapons. But as soon as you realize you can't beat me fair and square, you pull out a blade. [/B]

No honor in that.

And when has Cap ever pulled a punk move like that?


Personally I dont mind a person using any means available to him/her to defeat the enemy, because this is after all for all intents and purposes a war, and for a person to loose a fight due to some misplaced idea of honor or chivelry is just plain stupid.

When honor is stupid, we are in a bad place.


Cap would be the first to find and use any and all advantages available to him, weather it is overwhelming numbers or superior weapons. The only reason Cap fought one to one in that fight was because he had no choice, not because he wanted to.

Not because he wanted to?? Are you nuts? He was loving it!! He gets up and asks the guy for his name!!! He want know the name of the guy he's about to bury. It was so "Eastwood-esque"!! t: He was so up for this fight he could taste it!! These guys invaded his country?? He was set up as a traitor? And he not ready to make somebody pay??? You kiddin' me???

Forgive me. But I gotta post this again!!!

 

[The Question]

What a shame that would be. t:

It would actually have been very interesting story wise. Two men who previously tried to kill each other being forced to be partners.

 

[Kahoot]

Has anyone seen the cover for this weeks Empire mag? It's by Mr Ultimates him self Bryan Hitch. It's really cool, Ultimate Cap, Ultimate Thor, 616 Iorn Man, Movie black Spider-man and movie Wolverine

 

[Trask]

[B]PuhhhleeeeeeZZZ!!! LOL! Tell me you're kiddin'!! This battle between between Capt. Jihad and Rogers was suppose to be man-to-man. Jihad was like "no one interfere". Ulti-Cap was down , for that. And he stuck to the plan!! That was a punk's way out for Abdul!! If no rules were laid down, then your argument would be valid. It's like me and you agreeing on no weapons. But as soon as you realize you can't beat me fair and square, you pull out a blade. [/b]

Where you reading the same comic. Cap was on the floor on his face and beaten, he was surrounded by enemy forces and on his own, so of course he would be up for a one on one instead, he is not stupid. Also do you think he would have had any problem with it if Hawkeye had actually managed to kill Abdul from the back while he was distracted by Cap.

No honor in that.

And when has Cap ever pulled a punk move like that?

Have you forgotten the time he pulled a mashine gun on Wolverine while using knowledge about his past to distract him, because he knew he could not defeat him in a one on one fight. I could name a number of situations where Ultimate Cap has used such a tactic or used number where he knew he could not defeat a foe on a one to one fight. He only really fights one on one when it is to his advantage, and if it looks like he is loosing he would have a problem with doing anything to win.

Not because he wanted to?? Are you nuts? He was loving it!! He gets up and asks the guy for his name!!! He want know the name of the guy he's about to bury. It was so "Eastwood-esque"!! t: He was so up for this fight he could taste it!! These guys invaded his country?? He was set up as a traitor? And he not ready to make somebody pay??? You kiddin' me???

What has that got to do with honor, that is just plain vengence. I mean look at how he executed Abdul after the guy was defenceless (Hulk had severed his hands for gods sake). Oh yea I can see how honorable that was, killing a defencless and defeated foe. How is killing him once the hulk had sliced his hands off any different than Abdul tring to kill Cap while his people held him down.


Dont confuse Ultimate Cap with 616 Cap. 616 Cap would not do half the stuff Ultimate Cap does because he has more of a sence of personal honor while Ultimate Cap is always a soldier first.

 

[celldog]

Where you reading the same comic. Cap was on the floor on his face and beaten, he was surrounded by enemy forces and on his own, so of course he would be up for a one on one instead, he is not stupid. Also do you think he would have had any problem with it if Hawkeye had actually managed to kill Abdul from the back while he was distracted by Cap.

Cap's been surrounded like that before. He took out a whole room of those guys by himself. You think he couldn't do it again??


Have you forgotten the time he pulled a mashine gun on Wolverine while using knowledge about his past to distract him, because he knew he could not defeat him in a one on one fight. I could name a number of situations where Ultimate Cap has used such a tactic or used number where he knew he could not defeat a foe on a one to one fight. He only really fights one on one when it is to his advantage, and if it looks like he is loosing he would have a problem with doing anything to win.


But in none of those scenarios did he say that wouldn't use what ever weapons were necessary. Nor did he set a guideline for the fights (i.e "no one interfere") . He's a soldier!! So yeah...he uses a gun on Wolvie. If he said he "wouldn't use one, that would be a problem.





What has that got to do with honor, that is just plain vengence. I mean look at how he executed Abdul after the guy was defenceless (Hulk had severed his hands for gods sake). Oh yea I can see how honorable that was, killing a defencless and defeated foe. How is killing him once the hulk had sliced his hands off any different than Abdul tring to kill Cap while his people held him down.

Ohhhhhhh....well well well.... So when Cap was defenseless and being held down by Abdul's men, about to be beheaded, that was okay??? This was war!! In war, you take your enemy out. It's not a game.



Dont confuse Ultimate Cap with 616 Cap. 616 Cap would not do half the stuff Ultimate Cap does because he has more of a sence of personal honor while Ultimate Cap is always a soldier first.

I've no problem with either Cap. I like both.

 

[Brian Braddock]

Has anyone seen the cover for this weeks Empire mag? It's by Mr Ultimates him self Bryan Hitch. It's really cool, Ultimate Cap, Ultimate Thor, 616 Iorn Man, Movie black Spider-man and movie Wolverine

Yeah, just bought it - was going to post a comment on it myself; considering Hitch is slow with the art for the Ultimates, where does he find the time to do work for Empire as well as the stuff he did for Superman Returns?

 

[Trask]

Cap's been surrounded like that before. He took out a whole room of those guys by himself. You think he couldn't do it again??

The fact that he would have died if hulk had not helped him there proves that he would have lost if Abdul had not challenged him to a one on one fight, especially since at that time there were even more enemies surrounding him (remeber all those huge robots with those big mashine guns). So saying he would have won under those conditions is a bit of wishful thinking, and he knew it at the time. Sure he would have given them a hell of a fight and taken a whole lot of them with him, but he would have lost that fight.

But in none of those scenarios did he say that wouldn't use what ever weapons were necessary. Nor did he set a guideline for the fights (i.e "no one interfere") . He's a soldier!! So yeah...he uses a gun on Wolvie. If he said he "wouldn't use one, that would be a problem.

Ok a couple of points

1) Abdul never actually asked for help from his soldiers when he was loosing the fight, in fact he expected Cap to kill him. Those soldiers attacked on thier own, just like any shield agent would have come to Caps help if they saw him loosing weather he told them to interfere or not. After that what did you expect him to do, tell his soldiers to let Cap go and let Cap kill him for the sake of some sence of honor, do you think Cap would do that if the sides were reversed. You can only take honor so far before it becomes just plain stupid.

2) As for Cap going back on his word, when Abdul lost the fight and said "Why should I give up? So you can humiliate and execute me before your fellow officers?" Cap says "Dont be ridiculous.Thats not the way we do things in this country." Then a few minutes later what does Cap do.... he executes Abdul with his own weapon.... Well I dont know what you would call that but it certinly was in no way honorable.

3) Also have you forgotten the fight between Cap and Kleiser in Ultimates v1 12? That was meant to be a one on one fight by Caps choice and when he lost the first round and was almost killed, Fury jumped in and helped him, did he not. In that fight by your thinking it was Kleiser that was honorable and Cap the wuss and dishonorable.

"Only the winning side can afford honor."

Ohhhhhhh....well well well.... So when Cap was defenseless and being held down by Abdul's men, about to be beheaded, that was okay??? This was war!! In war, you take your enemy out. It's not a game.

Hmmm... hold on a sec, I never said in any of my post that I had any problem with what Cap did, I just pointed out to you that for you to have a go at Abdul for what he did in the fight while ignoring the questionable things that Cap did was unfair and bias. You called Abdul a wuss and questioned his honor, all I pointed out was that Cap has done similar things before. I never excused or denied what Abdul did.

I've no problem with either Cap. I like both.

Hmmm I dont read a lot of 616 Cap but I get the filling that Ultimate Cap has killed more people in this one issue that 616 Cap has in the last 10 years.

 

[celldog]

The fact that he would have died if hulk had not helped him there proves that he would have lost if Abdul had not challenged him to a one on one fight, especially since at that time there were even more enemies surrounding him (remeber all those huge robots with those big mashine guns). So saying he would have won under those conditions is a bit of wishful thinking, and he knew it at the time. Sure he would have given them a hell of a fight and taken a whole lot of them with him, but he would have lost that fight.

I'm not saying that he can whip everybody. That's pretty clear. But numbers have never scared this guy. Even size nevr made him back off. He brought the Hulk down in volume one, for a moment and he kicked Giant Man's butt while he was "giant-sized".


Ok a couple of points

1) Abdul never actually asked for help from his soldiers when he was loosing the fight, in fact he expected Cap to kill him. Those soldiers attacked on thier own, just like any shield agent would have come to Caps help if they saw him loosing weather he told them to interfere or not. After that what did you expect him to do, tell his soldiers to let Cap go and let Cap kill him for the sake of some sence of honor, do you think Cap would do that if the sides were reversed. You can only take honor so far before it becomes just plain stupid.


Don't be ridiculous! Capt. Jihad was happy to get the help. And even he said, "I wanted a fair fight. I really did." So he knew he was cheating!! As leader of his invasion force, he could have told them to back off and they would have. He punked out when he saw that he was out-classed.

2) As for Cap going back on his word, when Abdul lost the fight and said "Why should I give up? So you can humiliate and execute me before your fellow officers?" Cap says "Dont be ridiculous.Thats not the way we do things in this country." Then a few minutes later what does Cap do.... he executes Abdul with his own weapon.... Well I dont know what you would call that but it certinly was in no way honorable.


All bets were off after Capt. Jihad pull that lame stunt with his cronies!! Cap would have let him live if he had just surrendered then. But nooooooooo...he had to try and cut Cap's head off while he was being held down??? He pissed Cap off after that!! No way Cap let's this scumbag live!! Jiihad lost his chance.




3) Also have you forgotten the fight between Cap and Kleiser in Ultimates v1 12? That was meant to be a one on one fight by Caps choice and when he lost the first round and was almost killed, Fury jumped in and helped him, did he not. In that fight by your thinking it was Kleiser that was honorable and Cap the wuss and dishonorable.

"Only the winning side can afford honor."

I gotta dig that story out and look at it. But even in that, Klesiser wasn't human by any stretch. Jihad and Cap were at least even.


Hmmm... hold on a sec, I never said in any of my post that I had any problem with what Cap did, I just pointed out to you that for you to have a go at Abdul for what he did in the fight while ignoring the questionable things that Cap did was unfair and bias. You called Abdul a wuss and questioned his honor, all I pointed out was that Cap has done similar things before. I never excused or denied what Abdul did.

Cap's actions were not questionable. Jihad set the rules for the fight and he broke them when he got his butt beat. t:




Hmmm I dont read a lot of 616 Cap but I get the filling that Ultimate Cap has killed more people in this one issue that 616 Cap has in the last 10 years.

616 killed people in WWII. Now adays he tries not to.

 

[The Question]

616 killed people in WWII. Now adays he tries not to.

He always tried not to. But he's not so against killing that he won't do it when it's necessairy.

 

[LouFerignoDemon]

616 killed people in WWII. Now adays he tries not to.

Unquestionable and immoral? Aside from kicking a beat and bruised Bruce Banner in the face under the guise of being a friend?

And let us not forget that when Hank and Janet were enjoying a simple conversation at the Triskelion, he just strongarmed and humiliated Hank needlessly when Janet said it was fine, basically undermining her.

 

[celldog]

Unquestionable and immoral? Aside from kicking a beat and bruised Bruce Banner in the face under the guise of being a friend?

Yep....this is after Banner had killed a whole lot of people in New York as the Hulk. I't's the least he deserved. That kick was a sedative.


And let us not forget that when Hank and Janet were enjoying a simple conversation at the Triskelion, he just strongarmed and humiliated Hank needlessly when Janet said it was fine, basically undermining her.

You mean the Hank Pym that hit beat Jan, sprayed her with Raid and then sent him attack ants after her naked body almost killing her?? THAT Hank Pym??? Okay.

 

[celldog]

Unquestionable and immoral? Aside from kicking a beat and bruised Bruce Banner in the face under the guise of being a friend?

Yep....this is after Banner had killed a whole lot of people in New York as the Hulk. I't's the least he deserved. That kick was a sedative.


And let us not forget that when Hank and Janet were enjoying a simple conversation at the Triskelion, he just strongarmed and humiliated Hank needlessly when Janet said it was fine, basically undermining her.

You mean the Hank Pym that hit beat Jan, sprayed her with Raid and then sent him attack ants after her naked body almost killing her?? THAT Hank Pym??? Okay.

 

[celldog]

Unquestionable and immoral? Aside from kicking a beat and bruised Bruce Banner in the face under the guise of being a friend?

Yep....this is after Banner had killed a whole lot of people in New York as the Hulk. I't's the least he deserved. That kick was a sedative.


And let us not forget that when Hank and Janet were enjoying a simple conversation at the Triskelion, he just strongarmed and humiliated Hank needlessly when Janet said it was fine, basically undermining her.

You mean the Hank Pym that hit beat Jan, sprayed her with Raid and then sent him attack ants after her naked body almost killing her?? THAT Hank Pym??? Okay.

 

[celldog]

Unquestionable and immoral? Aside from kicking a beat and bruised Bruce Banner in the face under the guise of being a friend?

Yep....this is after Banner had killed a whole lot of people in New York as the Hulk. I't's the least he deserved. That kick was a sedative.


And let us not forget that when Hank and Janet were enjoying a simple conversation at the Triskelion, he just strongarmed and humiliated Hank needlessly when Janet said it was fine, basically undermining her.

You mean the Hank Pym that beat Jan within an inch of her life, sprayed her with Raid and then sent his attack ants after her naked body almost killing her?? THAT Hank Pym??? Okay.

 

[celldog]

Unquestionable and immoral? Aside from kicking a beat and bruised Bruce Banner in the face under the guise of being a friend?

Yep....this is after Banner had killed a whole lot of people in New York as the Hulk. I't's the least he deserved. That kick was a sedative.


And let us not forget that when Hank and Janet were enjoying a simple conversation at the Triskelion, he just strongarmed and humiliated Hank needlessly when Janet said it was fine, basically undermining her.

You mean the Hank Pym that beat Jan within an inch of her life, sprayed her with Raid and then sent his attack ants after her naked body almost killing her?? THAT Hank Pym??? Okay.

 

[celldog]

oops......sorry about the multiples...

 

[Trask]

I'm not saying that he can whip everybody. That's pretty clear. But numbers have never scared this guy. Even size nevr made him back off. He brought the Hulk down in volume one, for a moment and he kicked Giant Man's butt while he was "giant-sized".

I never implied that he would back out of a fight just because the odds were against him, what I said was that one of the reason he took on the one on one fight was because it was to his advantage. And he never brought down the Hulk in volume one, it was in fact Thor/Ironman that were doing the main attack and it was Janet that finally brought him down (if memory serves me right). All Cap did was kick Banner in the face once he was not the hulk anymore and down on the ground (are you noticing a pattern here?).

Don't be ridiculous! Capt. Jihad was happy to get the help. And even he said, "I wanted a fair fight. I really did." So he knew he was cheating!! As leader of his invasion force, he could have told them to back off and they would have. He punked out when he saw that he was out-classed.

Getting help and asking for it are two different things. If he had cried out for help then it would be something, but we know that he expected to be killed by Cap anytime and he never cried out for help, and once he got the help it would be stupid to just refuse it for some sence of honor. He admited to Cap that he won that battle, but that is no reason to throw away the whole war.

All bets were off after Capt. Jihad pull that lame stunt with his cronies!! Cap would have let him live if he had just surrendered then. But nooooooooo...he had to try and cut Cap's head off while he was being held down??? He pissed Cap off after that!! No way Cap let's this scumbag live!! Jiihad lost his chance.

That makes no sence at all. That is just refusing to take responsibilty for what Cap did. By that kind of reasoning Cap should kill all his enemies, because lets face it they all try to kill him. Besides a person honor is not determined by the actions of his enemies but by his own action. At the end of the day, what he did was kill a beaten and defencless person, heck they dont even allow that in warzones.

I gotta dig that story out and look at it. But even in that, Klesiser wasn't human by any stretch. Jihad and Cap were at least even.

Stop making excuses. You keep judging Caps actions by one set of rules and everyone else by another set of rules. At the end of the day Ultimate Cap is a soldier and as such he has gotten his hands dirty and covered in blood numerous times, so stop tring to paint him as some rightous person full of nothing but virtues.

616 killed people in WWII. Now adays he tries not to.

I dont remeber him killing a lot of people in WWII, but still his bodycount is nowhere near Ult Cap, especially considering the huge duration differences of both characters in comics.

 

[celldog]

I never implied that he would back out of a fight just because the odds were against him, what I said was that one of the reason he took on the one on one fight was because it was to his advantage. And he never brought down the Hulk in volume one, it was in fact Thor/Ironman that were doing the main attack and it was Janet that finally brought him down (if memory serves me right). All Cap did was kick Banner in the face once he was not the hulk anymore and down on the ground (are you noticing a pattern here?).


He did indeed bring the Hulk down. It was only for a moment. He tried to inject him with a trank. What book were you reading?? Even Nick Fury couldn't believe it.


Getting help and asking for it are two different things. If he had cried out for help then it would be something, but we know that he expected to be killed by Cap anytime and he never cried out for help, and once he got the help it would be stupid to just refuse it for some sence of honor. He admited to Cap that he won that battle, but that is no reason to throw away the whole war.


And I"M making up excuses?? LOL Boy that's really lame!! t: Neither of these guys would have called out for help. Not even Jihad. But he broke his own rule of engagement. Cap was playing by the rules Abdul set down. Since he was one in control...or so he thought. Cap was so cooool . He expected Cap to be trembling. HA! All Cap said was, "Name", as he slowly took his shield out and commensed to whuppin' Abdul's backside!!



That makes no sence at all. That is just refusing to take responsibilty for what Cap did. By that kind of reasoning Cap should kill all his enemies, because lets face it they all try to kill him. Besides a person honor is not determined by the actions of his enemies but by his own action. At the end of the day, what he did was kill a beaten and defencless person, heck they dont even allow that in warzones.


Kleiser is a super-strong alien shape-shifter. Abdul is not. Again...I don't have that issue available. I have to fish it out of my boxes. But even if he did get an assist, there is no comparison between the two battles. Cap just probably got in over his head with an alien lifeform he underestimated. He wasn't running into that a lot in the 40's.

Stop making excuses. You keep judging Caps actions by one set of rules and everyone else by another set of rules. At the end of the day Ultimate Cap is a soldier and as such he has gotten his hands dirty and covered in blood numerous times, so stop tring to paint him as some rightous person full of nothing but virtues.

Is that the picture I painted??? Naaah.....he's very Eastwood!! And I like that!! He's got code...he's a true soldier....and there is honor in that. Push him too far and he will take you out.


I dont remeber him killing a lot of people in WWII, but still his bodycount is nowhere near Ult Cap, especially considering the huge duration differences of both characters in comics.

Kirby had Cap killing a lot of Germans in WWII. It was war after all.

 

[November Rain]

so what is actually happening in this book now, have they finished this arc yet, it seems to be taking forever...

 

[celldog]

so what is actually happening in this book now, have they finished this arc yet, it seems to be taking forever...

I guess Thor and Loki throw down.

 

[November Rain]

anything out on graphic novel yet?

is ultimates 2 completely done yet

when is ultimates 3 coming out?