Part VI (Spoiler Thread)

[Ninjablade]

Not sure how Padme turned around and saw this like "gotta get me some of that."

Well, you see he was spitting mad game like this

 

[Snow Queen]

Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't want Luke to kill Vader.

Here's a guy named George Lucas to clarify it for the people here:



I'm surprised people actually thought Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi MASTER, wanted Luke Skywalker to kill his own Father.

What is Obi-Wan trying to say then, in your view, if the options are "kill your dad" or "the Emperor wins"?

 

[Snow Queen]

Well, you see he was spitting mad game like this

Owen and him really are family, judging from where his mind went this week.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Ok watched that part again. Yes Vader shouldn't have feelings for kenobi. I don't think this is part of his redemption though, just part of him dealing with Kenobi again. The redemption to me is only from knowing about his kid. Kenobi isn't what makes him think about turning in the slightest at least not in A New Hope. This show does a poor job of that and yes I can see your point of view that the writers are trying to hint at redemption already. I still don't believe any redemption should cross his mind until he finds out about Luke.

The implication is he can't beat him, because he cares about him. Just like how Luke stomps him in RotJ, because Vader's heart isn't in it anymore. He can't kill his son. He was never able to kill his son. Which is why he's on a slow death march the moment Luke is revealed to him. His big gamble is that maybe Luke will join him, but his kid rejects that.

Vader is suppose to be the coldest, baddest man in all the galaxy. He's suppose to be anger incarnate. They try to build that up with moments like him going through the town destroying people, only to chip away at it with stuff like that.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't want Luke to kill Vader.

Here's a guy named George Lucas to clarify it for the people here:



I'm surprised people actually thought Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi MASTER, wanted Luke Skywalker to kill his own Father.

When did Yoda become a plural, for Obi-Wan and Yoda? Also, love George. The dude has a history of double speak and ignoring what he put on screen. Just ask Han and his poor neck.

Also using your logic, how does a Jedi ever kill a Sith? Was Anakin being a bad Jedi when he tossed Sheev down the hole? How about Luke on the barage?

 

[misjuevos]

Why does Kenobi even fight Vader if he has a hyperdrive on the shuttle? The star destroyer couldn't hit the ship, and I guess they were out of tie fighters. Kenobi could've just had Vader chase him till the rebels got away, then hit the hyperdrive and get away. They can't seem to find Kenobi either. So he really could've just led Vader away then escaped.

 

[Ninjablade]

Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't want Luke to kill Vader.

Here's a guy named George Lucas to clarify it for the people here:



I'm surprised people actually thought Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi MASTER, wanted Luke Skywalker to kill his own Father.

I don't need George to explain to me the nuance of Luke and Yoda's final conversation. Yoda is pretty explicit in what he wants. "You need to confront Vader, but remember to not let your anger consume you". Yoda leaves it up to Luke to decide how he wants to deal with Vader, which is what George is saying.

Obi Wan on the other hand is pretty damn clear telling Luke he has to kill Vader. I don't get how you can even try and argue against literal dialogue and events in the movie. I get you love the show, but come on.

 

[Johnny Richards]

What is Obi-Wan trying to say then, in your view, if the options are "kill your dad" or "the Emperor wins"?

It's simple. To finish turning Vader, Luke must face him again. Obi-Wan and Yoda know Vader's compassion for Luke will turn him. Luke tells Leia the same thing on Endor "I can bring him back."

The only person who could bring down Palpatine was Vader. Not Luke. Luke never stood a chance against Palpatine yet Palpatine feared him. Vader knew this. The only way the Emperor DOESN'T win is if Luke turns Vader.

 

[Ninjablade]

Owen and him really are family, judging from where his mind went this week.

It's a good thing most of this family is dead by the time Boba gets out of the Sarlacc

 

[DarthSkywalker]

It's simple. To finish turning Vader, Luke must face him again. Obi-Wan and Yoda know Vader's compassion for Luke will turn him. Luke tells Leia the same thing on Endor "I can bring him back."

The only person who could bring down Palpatine was Vader. Not Luke. Luke never stood a chance against Palpatine yet Palpatine feared him. Vader knew this. The only way the Emperor DOESN'T win is if Luke turns Vader.

You are confusing Luke's intentions with Obi-Wan's. Again, why does Obi-Wan say if Luke isn't willing to kill his father, they've already lost?

Also, if you aren't allowed to "kill" as a Jedi, why does Yoda say they have to "destroy" the Sith? Then Obi-Wan tells Yoda, he can't kill Anakin, confirming destroy means kill? This is Yoda, Jedi Grand Master and Obi-Wan, Jedi Master and JC member.



What Yoda does in that scene is exactly what Obi-Wan does later with Luke. He dehumanizes Anakin. Saying he no longer exist, only Vader. So Obi-Wan will kill him.

 

[Ninjablade]

It's simple. To finish turning Vader, Luke must face him again. Obi-Wan and Yoda know Vader's compassion for Luke will turn him. Luke tells Leia the same thing on Endor "I can bring him back."

The only person who could bring down Palpatine was Vader. Not Luke. Luke never stood a chance against Palpatine yet Palpatine feared him. Vader knew this. The only way the Emperor DOESN'T win is if Luke turns Vader.

Can you show me a single instance in any of the OT, where Obi Wan expresses any semblance of a belief that Darth Vader can be turned to the light side?

 

[P Supreme]

I always took the line Obi Wan says to Luke "he's more machine than man"

That he needs to be stopped at all cost he has no human emotions anymore

 

[Johnny Richards]

I don't need George to explain to me the nuance of Luke and Yoda's final conversation. Yoda is pretty explicit in what he wants. "You need to confront Vader, but remember to not let your anger consume you". Yoda leaves it up to Luke to decide how he wants to deal with Vader, which is what George is saying.

Obi Wan on the other hand is pretty damn clear telling Luke he has to kill Vader. I don't get how you can even try and argue against literal dialogue and events in the movie. I get you love the show, but come on.

"The mission isn't for Luke to go out and kill his father."

-George Lucas, CREATOR OF STAR WARS

 

[Snow Queen]

It's simple. To finish turning Vader, Luke must face him again. Obi-Wan and Yoda know Vader's compassion for Luke will turn him. Luke tells Leia the same thing on Endor "I can bring him back."

The only person who could bring down Palpatine was Vader. Not Luke. Luke never stood a chance against Palpatine yet Palpatine feared him. Vader knew this. The only way the Emperor DOESN'T win is if Luke turns Vader.

If that were the case, then why state the certainty of defeat if Luke refuses to kill him? Why not "well you don't have to kill him, just talk to him a bit and see if he'll help us out?"

 

[Ninjablade]

Also, if you aren't allowed to "kill" as a Jedi, why does Yoda say they have to "destroy" the Sith? Then Obi-Wan tells Yoda, he can't kill Anakin, confirming destroy means kill? This is Yoda, Jedi Grand Master and Obi-Wan, Jedi Master and JC member.

Those damn Jedi and their no kill rule

 

[Marvolo]

What bothered me most was the explanation. Between this and Ahsoka on Rebels, they are devaluing what Luke means to Anakin and his redemption.

Luke's value is that he is Anakin's son and believed in his goodness. Ahsoka and Obi aren't family and both believed Anakin was dead and only Vader remained. As long as Disney doesn't reveal a third sibling or remake the OT they cant take away what makes Luke special.

 

[Johnny Richards]

If that were the case, then why state the certainty of defeat if Luke refuses to kill him? Why not "well you don't have to kill him, just talk to him a bit and see if he'll help us out?"

Yoda & Obi-Wan are preparing Luke for the confrontation without being too on the nose about what needs to happen. Yoda makes sure Luke understands Palpatine is powerful. Obi-Wan reminds Luke that Vader is "twisted and evil." It won't be easy turning him. Specially with Palpatine in the same room. Luke tries on Endor and sees firsthand how strong Palpatine's grip over Vader is.

But in the end, Luke pulls it off beautifully by almost dying. And The Emperor loses.

George Lucas is a master storyteller and Marquand shot those scenes wonderfully.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

"The mission isn't for Luke to go out and kill his father."

-George Lucas, CREATOR OF STAR WARS

As given to him by Yoda, not Obi-Wan.

Your refusal to acknowledge anything in the actual films, including engaging in the lines and scenes presented to you, is disingenuous at best.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Luke's value is that he is Anakin's son and believed in his goodness. Ahsoka and Obi aren't family and both believed Anakin was dead and only Vader remained. As long as Disney doesn't reveal a third sibling or remake the OT they cant take away what makes Luke special.

Uh...

Ahsoka: "I won't leave you again."

Obi-Wan: Leaves Anakin alive a second time because he can't bear to kill Anakin.

I mean... yeah.

 

[Ninjablade]

You can't take it away, but you can certainly diminish the meaning of Luke's feat as well as the menace of Vader. If Vader is unable to kill several people because of his established relationships with them, then he's not the cold hearted man that only cracked because his son showed love. Especially with Kenobi who he should hate more than anyone.

 

[Johnny Richards]

As given to him by Yoda, not Obi-Wan.

Your refusal to acknowledge anything in the actual films, including engaging in the lines and scenes presented to you, is disingenuous at best and certain something else at worst.

You're arguing with George Lucas. Stop.

It's not "Yoda's mission." It's THE mission. The fact that you're trying to make it out to be solely Yoda's mission is HILARIOUS. Yoda and Obi-Wan were OBVIOUSLY on the same page.

You think you know everything. You don't. A quick Google search got me to that quote.

 

[Ninjablade]

Yoda and Obi-Wan were OBVIOUSLY on the same page.

Except they weren't. If they are, please show me one single line or instance of Obi Wan expressing to Luke he doesn't want him to kill Vader in the entire OT. It shouldn't be hard for you and google.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You can't take it away, but you can certainly diminish the meaning of Luke's feat as well as the menace of Vader. If Vader is unable to kill several people because of his established relationships with them, then he's not the cold hearted man that only cracked because his son showed love. Especially with Kenobi who he should hate more than anyone.

Except for himself.

Luke reaches his father, because he believes in him. He's the only one who senses the good. It's why he doesn't dehumanize him the way Obi-Wan does. There is exactly zero reason for Obi-Wan to tell Luke his father is gone, if the idea is to "save him". Obi-Wan doesn't think there is anything to save in the OT. It's all over his dialogue, including his words to Luke. Who he sets up from day one to kill him, by telling him Vader killed his daddy, who was a awesome guy.

Even once the truth is know to Luke, Obi-Wan continues to press it.

 

[Johnny Richards]

Except they weren't.

You know how ridiculous this sounds?

Force Ghost Obi-Wan SENDS Luke to train under Yoda in Dagobah.

So he sends him to train under Yoda to kill Vader when Yoda doesn't share this desire for Luke to kill his own Father?

Nonsense. Utter nonsense.

There was ONE plan as Lucas states above. ONE plan shared by Obi-Wan and Yoda. A plan to TURN Vader via Luke.

 

[Ninjablade]

Except for himself.

Luke reaches his father, because he believes in him. He's the only one who senses the good. It's why he doesn't dehumanize him the way Obi-Wan does. There is exactly zero reason for Obi-Wan to tell Luke his father is gone, if the idea is to "save him". Obi-Wan doesn't think there is anything to save in the OT. It's all over his dialogue, including his words to Luke. Who he sets up from day one to kill him, by telling him Vader killed his daddy, who was a awesome guy.

Even once the truth is know to Luke, Obi-Wan continues to press it.

It's such an interesting dynamic between the three characters, and for me makes the confrontation in this episode all the more frustrating. They want to write the show about Obi Wan discovering Anakin is alive and losing all hope in him, but you also want them to fight with Kenobi still besting Vader. Those two things are had to pull off together unless you really contrive something to prevent Obi Wan from killing Vader. Walking away might've been the worst possible option.