Prometheus - Part 9

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I think it is a very profound notion that something we saw of for years as profoundly non-human in Giger's Jockey from Alien turns out to be "human".

Maybe i wouldnt have gone that route either, but it contains some thought provoking science fiction conceptually so I do respect the plot twist.

That doesn't need an excuse though...there was always going to be a difference since this was a much newer movie, unless you wanted the ship's interfaces to run MS-DOS.

Here's a better excuse;

Alien was made in 1979, and Prometheus was made in 2012.

And you'd have to be a total moron as a director to put in tech from 1979 in a modern movie for the sake of in-film accuracy.


Right..agreed..but the difference is still there like it or not. The viewer still has to accept that for whatever reason it's different.

Really the "Space Jockey" scene from Alien has been largely forgotten by most viewers through the course of the franchise...maybe until they announced this direction..and still some probably didnt remember it.
 
I accept it's different because I know they are films made decades apart. I'm not being funny when I say that. My suspension of disbelief isn't so fragile.
 
I agree. I was disappointed when the "true" face of the jokey was revealed. The engineers created both humans and the xenomorph so looking like one's creation isn't a pre-req to creation. I guess when they decided that the Engineers would be humanity's creators they decided to give them a more humanoid appearance so they can keep the "made us in his own image" motif.

They explain why they made them humanoid in the documentary. They didnt think people would care or relate to gigantic elephantine creatures so they made the decision to make them look more humanoid and then based their look on the greek and roman statues that represented human physical perfection. There is a lot of concept art on the 3d bluray showing that the engineers werent originally so humanoid. All this was an outcrop of ridley deciding that the space jokey that we see in Alien was a space suit instead of a skeleton. According to the writers and crew it wasnt a popular decision but eventually they came around to ridleys side. This isnt to say that us being made in their image didnt factor but it wasnt the soul reason for designing them that way.
 
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Well for one if they had visited Earth several times over the years, why do we have no carvings or sculptures of the elephant men? We do have carvings of those type of Engineers we saw in the movie. It's all humanoid faces.

If humans evolved from that first Engineer's sacrifice, it would make sense that we would also look like them once fully evolved. We don't look like Elephant men.
 
Really the "Space Jockey" scene from Alien has been largely forgotten by most viewers through the course of the franchise...maybe until they announced this direction..and still some probably didnt remember it.
No, it hasn't. If you love that film at all, then the Jockey must impress itself on your conscience almost as much as the Xenomorph itself. They represent the two potentialities we see in alien lifeforms: the mysterious, enigmatic and technologically superior god-alien; and the oozing, spine-covered "star beast" that just wants to consume us. The former is perhaps more fascinating, because the Star Beast plays out its gruesome life before our eyes, while the life and mind of the Jockey are never revealed.

They didnt think people would care or relate to gigantic elephantine creatures so they made the decision to make them look more humanoid and then based their look on the greek and roman statues that represented human physical perfection.
They were wrong. People readily personify talking animals and cute robots. I don't believe that they would withdraw their interest from a different form of alien.

Well for one if they had visited Earth several times over the years, why do we have no carvings or sculptures of the elephant men
What about Ganesh?

If humans evolved from that first Engineer's sacrifice, it would make sense that we would also look like them once fully evolved. We don't look like Elephant men.
It doesn't make any sense at all. If the Engineer had merely cloned us from his cells, and our species had become corrupt, then that would be explicable. But he shreds himself into component DNA, which kick-starts terrestrial life at its primordial phase, which evolves over millions of years to looks a bit like him with a genetic code that is identical. That makes no sense whatsoever. It would be more believable if we looked like anything but the engineer.

The elephantine Jockey's could have made us in a testube, using cells from primate-like beings from their home planet. That would have been just as sci-fi-ish, but less stupid.
 
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No, it hasn't. If you love that film at all, then the Jockey must impress itself on your conscience almost as much as the Xenomorph itself. They represent the two potentialities we see in alien lifeforms: the mysterious, enigmatic and technologically superior god-alien; and the oozing, spine-covered "star beast" that just wants to consume us. The former is perhaps more fascinating, because the Star Best plays out its gruesome life before our eyes, while the life and mind of the Jockey are never revealed.


They were wrong. People readily personify talking animals and cute robots. I don't believe that they would withdraw their interest from a different form of alien.


What about Ganesh?


It doesn't make any sense at all. If the Engineer had merely cloned us from his cells, and our species had become corrupt, then that would be explicable. But he shreds himself into component DNA, which kick-starts terrestrial life at its primordial phase, which evolves over millions of years to looks a bit like him with a genetic code that is identical. That makes no sense whatsoever. It would be more believable if we looked like anything but the engineer.

The elephantine Jockey's could have mad us in a testube, using cells from primate-like beings from their home planet. That would have been just as sci-fi-ish, but less stupid.

Just brainstorming here. There is a scientific theory that humanoid forms could be the most optimal lifeform for intelligence. Our looking like this could just be a result of evolution always leading to humanoId intelligent beings. And we dont exactly understand the black goo and the engineer looked pretty surprised to see the humans so it is also a possibility that we are a fluke or that god played a hand in our evolution. Based on what is said in the doc and some of the script pages in the doc and the religious iconography in the ampuel chamber the engineers are religious. According to some info in the doc, the engineers are a race that have evolved to an almost perfect species. They see in wavelengths we cant and their designs and black dark ships do not look that way to them. They can also experience nature on a level humans cant. Their religion is based around evolving to a higher state of being allowing their soul to reach the 10th space demension and spread throughout all demensions. Their was a line the old engineer said to the sacrificial engineer in the prologue but it was cut and not inclided in the deleted scene on the bluray. The elder engineer says, " Let your body become the dirt. Your blood become the waters. And may your soul become their way back to us." They are a spiritual race and do believe in a god or higher being. It may be that the sacrificial engineer wasnt seeding planets but was instead sacrificing himself for his faith but do to an unknown factor life continued to evolve in a way they didnt anticipate. Maybe their higher being that they believe in which resides in the deminsions they hope to reach helped us evolve. Its also of note that scott and the writers said that the the Deacon is an ultramorph. It is the true form of the xenomorphs. The engineers used the black goo to create them and then unleashed them on planets to wipe out the life on the planet so they could then go in to terraform. The xenomorphs from the previous films are bastardizations of the ultramorph/Deacon. Now whether they willstick with this idk. The mural in the ampuel room shows a xenomorph lifecycle so they already know of the xenomorphs and have encountered them and by the mural appear to revere them. Damn this **** fascinates me. So much about these engineers and their society is guess work but i love it cause all the clues are there. We the audience get to interpret it.
 
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Well for one if they had visited Earth several times over the years, why do we have no carvings or sculptures of the elephant men? We do have carvings of those type of Engineers we saw in the movie. It's all humanoid faces.

If humans evolved from that first Engineer's sacrifice, it would make sense that we would also look like them once fully evolved. We don't look like Elephant men.
In the context of what the movie presented, they could have just as easily been more alien in the carvings but Ridley Scott decided against it. The audience not being able to care or relate to them is a paper thin argument.

Look at the various depictions of Egyptian Gods in real life as an example. Dog, Feline, and Bird anthropomorphic beings that they worshiped. They had no problem with "relating" to them in ancient times.
 
Finally got to watch this. I liked it. Some of the characters have major WTF moments, but I still found the movie enjoyable. Hope we can get a proper sequel to it.
 
I only bought the 2 disc. Hopefully my questions will still be answered.

The 2 disc set doesnt include the special features disc with the 4 hour documentary on the making of the movie and doesnt include the weyland archive files. That is where the information is. Basically you got a barebones set with the commentaries and deleted scenes only. If you want all the special features you need to buy the 4 disc 3d bluray set.
 
The 2 disc set doesnt include the special features disc with the 4 hour documentary on the making of the movie and doesnt include the weyland archive files. That is where the information is. Basically you got a barebones set with the commentaries and deleted scenes only. If you want all the special features you need to buy the 4 disc 3d bluray set.


:cmad: You've got to be kidding me. I don't even have the desire to own a 3D player.


There's also a feature on the 2D called the Peter Weyland files which is basically the virals and a young Weyland doing a press conference.
 
:cmad: You've got to be kidding me. I don't even have the desire to own a 3D player.


There's also a feature on the 2D called the Peter Weyland files which is basically the virals and a young Weyland doing a press conference.

You dont need a 3d player. The special features disc is on a normal 2d disc and its only $5 more for the 3d set. If you havent opened your set return it and get the 3d set. Also, the weyland corp archives on the special features disc in the 3D set aren't the same as the weyland files included in the 2 disc set. The 3D set has the weyland archive and the weyland files.

Here is a list of what you get extra in the 3D set:

Exclusive Bonus Features Disc

The Furious Gods: Making Prometheus (1080p, 3:40:56): Here's where it really gets good. Directed by renowned behind-the-scenes documentarian Charles de Lauzirika, this nearly four-hour making-of feature is a comprehensive journey through the film's creation—from early script ideas to the pre-release hype train—with all-access on-set footage and interviews with nearly everyone involved. Read below to see what's covered in each of these nine sections.

Conquest of Paradise: Renewing the Story: Ridley Scott and the film's writers discuss the process of revamping the series, drafting up the initial scripts and moving into pre-production design.
Under the Pyramid: LV-223: Here, we go inside the art room in Los Angeles where the film's visual ideas were hashed out, see a meeting with H.R. Giger, hear about the designing of the "space jockey's" chair, and even hear how the artists were initially opposed to the humanoid look of the Engineers. We also get into the evolution of the monster design, which will be fleshed out in it's own section later in the documentary.
Reverse Engineering: USCSS Prometheus: A look at the designing of the Prometheus ship—from the functional aspects of spaceflight to the technology of the interiors—along with the rovers and ATVs.
The Human Manifest: Casting and Costumes: An overview of—and interviews with—all of the main actors, discussing their characters and how they got involved with the film. Best bit? An outtake with Michael Fassbender, as David, referring to his android penis as "sixteen inches long when erect; it varies when relaxed." Mixed in are interviews and behind-the-scenes footage with costume designer Janty Yates, explaining the rationale behind the characters' outfits.
A World without Green: Pinewood Studios, 2011: Ridley's decision to create as much practically as possible—as opposed to automatically defaulting to greenscreen and CGI—resulted in some huge and remarkably detailed sets at England's Pinewood Studios, specifically the famed 007 lot. We also get a look at the process of shooting in 3D, from the intricate wiring and more complicated workflow to the temperamental camera rigs.
Demons in the Dark: Creature Design: In the second section we see the pre-production design of the monsters; here, we get to see the on-set, practical aspects of bringing the monsters to life using "cable technology"—that is, animatronics—and "good old fashioned movie tricks." For example, you'd never know the amniotic sac of the alien inside Shaw is just a condom.
Hazard Pay: Stunts and Action: Lots of juicy behind-the-scenes footage of the film's intense stunt sequences, especially the lengthy fire burns, the engineer fight scene, and the climax.
Fire from the Sky: Visual Effects: Not everything was done practically of course, and this section explores the digital effect work from Weta Workshop and others, from the decomposition of the engineer at the beginning to the creation of the alien landscapes, the creatures, the med-pod scene, and the birth of the "deacon."
Prometheus Unbound: Post-Production and Release: The first part of this section is all about the polish. The editing process with Pietro Scalia. The decision to go for the R rating. The scoring at Abbey Road. The sound design. Then we go to the internet hype machine and the fans. In a particularly revealing moment, Lindelof admits,"Will it be frustrating at the end? Absolutely. Be we all agreed that that was a good thing for it to be."

Enhancement Pods (1080p, 1:10:54): If a nearly four-hour documentary weren't enough, there are twenty-three "enhancement pods," which go in-depth into subjects that aren't fully covered in the documentary proper, including the titling of the film, the role of sex, the set decorating, the evolution of the Weyland logo, the creation of the "ampules," Giger's influence, the construction of the engineer language, shooting on location in Iceland, and more. You can trigger these from within The Furious Gods—an icon appears onscreen at key junctures—or select them from the main menu.

Weyland Corp Archive: Everything else goes here, in the Weyland Corp Archive, where you'll find image galleries, pre-vis animatics, screen tests, promo featurettes, and marketing materials, with sections for pre-production, production, and release.
The Art of Prometheus (1080p): A series of galleries, with sections for Ridleygrams, Giger & Gutalin, Conceptual Art, Costume Design, Creatures, Vehicles, Props, Logos & Patches.
Pre-Vis (1080p, 25:47): Pre-vis animatics for several key sections through the film.
Screen Tests (1080p): Here you'll find Noomi Rapace's initial test as Shaw (9:55) and a Costume/Make-Up/Hair test with optional cast commentary (11:28).
Time-Lapse Sequence: Juggernaut (1080p,1:51): A time-lapse of the construction of the "pilot's chamber," with optional commentary by production designer Arthur Max.
Unit Photography (1080p): Galleries of on-set/on-location images, with sections for Prometheus, Pyramid, Juggernaut, Creature Shop, and Iceland.
Marketing Gallery (1080p): With sections for Poster Exploration and Key Art.
Trailers and TV Spots (1080p): Here, you'll find two US trailers, an international teaser, and a whopping twenty-eight TV spots.
Promotional Featurettes (1080p, 18:43): Nine hype-building promos, featuring on-set footage, brief clips from the film, and the cast and crew talking up the movie, discussing the characters and the story's themes.

HBO First Look: Prometheus (1080p, 12:03): A short HBO special that's basically an extended version of the previous featurettes, introducing the film's key concepts and featuring interviews with Ridley Scott and members of the cast.

Here are detailed reviews of the sets where you can find special feature lists and the differences. Scroll down to the special features review.

2D set

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Prometheus-Blu-ray/39475/#Review

3D set

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Prometheus-3D-Blu-ray/39474/#Review
 
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It's a shame becuase they gave me a dvd/digial copty I'll never use. I'll get the 3D set eventually.
 
It's a shame becuase they gave me a dvd/digial copty I'll never use. I'll get the 3D set eventually.

Maybe you can find the special features disc on ebay or find the documentary online.
 
No, it hasn't. If you love that film at all, then the Jockey must impress itself on your conscience almost as much as the Xenomorph itself. They represent the two potentialities we see in alien lifeforms: the mysterious, enigmatic and technologically superior god-alien; and the oozing, spine-covered "star beast" that just wants to consume us. The former is perhaps more fascinating, because the Star Beast plays out its gruesome life before our eyes, while the life and mind of the Jockey are never revealed.

Disagree. I love the films and did not remember it in a fundamental way. People love the series for different reasons and jumped on at different points. A small percentage will likely agree with you, but i would saw it's minor.

Giger was chosen for a number of reasons..but many would argue the human componant of Giger's work and the fusion of human characteristics with animal/machine/insect/etc..are the fundamental themes in his art/design.

Therfore it's ironic that such an alien lifeform turns out to be human (ish). And the human aspect in his work is fundamental in creating the Alien feel of his work, IMO.

Like I said..not saying I agree with the direction, but i do respect it as profound.
 
Well for one if they had visited Earth several times over the years, why do we have no carvings or sculptures of the elephant men? We do have carvings of those type of Engineers we saw in the movie. It's all humanoid faces.

If humans evolved from that first Engineer's sacrifice, it would make sense that we would also look like them once fully evolved. We don't look like Elephant men.

If they chose to go with the "elephant men" look, the story could have been different...Humans could have been created through biological experiments in their laboratories. The carvings were humanoid because that's what the writers wrote...etc
 
I don't see why the notion..that the Engineers have an "incredibly" complex method for engineering life/technology that is, essentially beyond our comprehension is such a hard pill to swallow...and clearly there are significant events that were not explained..doesnt mean they don't have explanations.

So far the only thing i feel is a true goof is the size and "minor" suit difference between the Alien Jockey and the one in Prometheus...and really there are several easy explanations to this Scott could generate.

Really if Scott had wasted time explaining stuff ad nauseum the film would have likely suffered. So yes, the film answers questions but creates new ones. It's not a documentary..its a work of fiction and some of the best film/tv has thrived off this notion.
 
I just watched this movie, and here is my short review from the "What's The Last Movie You Watched?" thread:

Prometheus is a movie filled with adults, professionals (scientists even!) that just run around the whole time behaving like teenagers in a slasher flick. It was boring, formulaic, and filled with uninteresting characters that I couldn't have cared less about. My biggest problem with the movie though, is that like Predators from a couple of years ago, I feel as though Prometheus is ultimately just doing a very poor impersonation of a much, much better movie.

Having said that... maybe it was the handful of decent scenes in the movie, maybe it was the interesting concepts they were playing with, or maybe it's just that it has ties (tenuous as they may be) to other movies that I really love and care about, but I did enjoy the movie to a certain degree.

Played out as the "ancient aliens" idea is, I'm a sucker for it, and I like that's the direction they went with the Engineers. I loved the mystique of the Engineers, and I hope they get explored further if any sequels are made. The pregnancy scene was great. It was the one genuinely tense part of the movie. Though the squid baby looked fake (and stupid) as hell. So yeah, it wasn't a total stinker and while I understand people (myself included) were disappointed with it, I really don't see a reason for it to receive the kind of it has.

Overall, I found Prometheus to be an exceedingly dull and oftentimes sloppy movie that I somehow managed to enjoy despite itself. I have the suspicion that a stronger movie (even if only slightly) exists somewhere on the cutting room floor, so I look forward to checking out a potential extended cut.

3/5

As for where I would rank it in the franchise...

Alien
Aliens
Predator
Alien 3
Predator 2
Prometheus
Predators
Aliens VS. Predator
Alien: Resurrection
Aliens VS. Predator 2
 
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Goodness me, you do have a high opinion of Predator 2.
 
If they chose to go with the "elephant men" look, the story could have been different...Humans could have been created through biological experiments in their laboratories. The carvings were humanoid because that's what the writers wrote...etc

The carvings on our planet are humanoid. It could have been snake men or gigantic birds that talk...but they chose to be a little more realistic and make them humanoid...and it makes more sense because of that. It makes sense that we resemble our creators.

I really can't believe that people are in a hubbub over the Engineers not being giant elephant men. Who cares? How would that have made the movie better for the people complaining about it? It wouldn't...soooooo. The movie is titled after a Greek diety story. The Engineers resemble Greek gods. There is nothing more to it. It makes no sense that our creators were elephant men. Anyone can come up with a way to say it would work this way or if they did this but it boils down to a god resembling his creation. There is no connection otherwise. It is a deeper story with Prometheus giving his life to create life than an elephant man creating humans in a laboratory.
 
I just watched this movie, and here is my short review from the "What's The Last Movie You Watched?" thread:

Prometheus is a movie filled with adults, professionals (scientists even!) that just run around the whole time behaving like teenagers in a slasher flick. It was boring, formulaic, and filled with uninteresting characters that I couldn't have cared less about. My biggest problem with the movie though, is that like Predators from a couple of years ago, I feel as though Prometheus is ultimately just doing a very poor impersonation of a much, much better movie.

Having said that... maybe it was the handful of decent scenes in the movie, maybe it was the interesting concepts they were playing with, or maybe it's just that it has ties (tenuous as they may be) to other movies that I really love and care about, but I did enjoy the movie to a certain degree.

Played out as the "ancient aliens" idea is, I'm a sucker for it, and I like that's the direction they went with the Engineers. I loved the mystique of the Engineers, and I hope they get explored further if any sequels are made. The pregnancy scene was great. It was the one genuinely tense part of the movie. Though the squid baby looked fake (and stupid) as hell. So yeah, it wasn't a total stinker and while I understand people (myself included) were disappointed with it, I really don't see a reason for it to receive the kind of it has.

Overall, I found Prometheus to be an exceedingly dull and oftentimes sloppy movie that I somehow managed to enjoy despite itself. I have the suspicion that a stronger movie (even if only slightly) exists somewhere on the cutting room floor, so I look forward to checking out a potential extended cut.

3/5

As for where I would rank it in the franchise...

Alien
Aliens
Predator
Alien 3
Predator 2
Prometheus
Predators
Aliens VS. Predator
Alien: Resurrection
Aliens VS. Predator 2

I generally agree with you..although I'm a bit less intense on your negative assessments of the movie.

I liked Shaw in the movie..especially after the surgery where it was like a switch was flipped and she became interesting and Ripley-esque.

The captain was good as well..although i thought the death sequence was handled poorly.

Vickers was just seeming to possibly become interesting..then she dies (i guess)

SO yes..i was also struck with many cases of "that could have been done a bit better.." (there were so many) but overrall there was enjoyment.

At the end of the day..i think the main reason the film suffers is the general mess with the "antagonist" concept in the film. Aside from fan appeasement..it probably would have made for a better flick to have more cohesion in what the threat was..and what I mean is a Xenomorph threat. It didnt need to be the Xenomorphs, but it just needed have more of an identity.

This had that effect on the bumbling around like teenagers aspect you mention. It also seemed to effect the horror factor in the film.
 
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