Discussion in 'Rogue One: A Star Wars Story' started by Erzengel, Dec 27, 2016.
K2, definitely. He was great.
I liked both films about the same.
What do you mean by this? JJ pretty much made a SW film as well.
Casting women and minorities as the leads? Except, you know, Rogue One, so that makes no sense.
The Force Awakens
I know this is an old thread but just joined the board. Rogue One was significantly better for me. I felt it fit in perfectly as part of the OT. TFA was ok but it was all style with no substance for me. I need to watch it again and I am sure I will appreciate it a little more, but I liked Rogue One immediately and saw it a second time and felt it was even better upon the second viewing. A lot of people complain that it was slow to start but I felt it was paced just fine with a good story and build up with the 3rd act really delivering.
RO is much, much better than TFA - I would have put it almost on par with OT. It is really SW movie - the second half of the movie is simply incredibly good. It has logical and cohesive plot (great achievement when comparing to TFA), fantastic "addons" logically explaining issues from ANH plus fantastic cameos from Saga. The final battle in space and in the atmosphere - it has Death Star battle vibe. Red Five dying in the battle. Red Leader, Gold Leader etc. When it comes to ending I find it fine - it is an adult war movie. They could spared e.g. Cassian and/or Jyn and put them into further work for Rebel secret services (which would have opened possibility for sequel ;-)) but it is still fine.
PS. Darth Vader is fantastic. The "big bad wolf" from TFA looks pathetic event more.
I give it to TFA, though I do think both movies are genuinely good. I suppose the tipping point for me is that I felt the leads in TFA had better character arcs and that TFA's "gold," so to speak, is spread throughout the entire film instead of focused in the ending. While I kind of liked Jyn and Cassian, I felt Rogue One's emotional character set-piece didn't feature them; it was Baze holding Chirrut as he dies and reciting their religious creed that got to me. Cassian and Jyn's death simply wasn't as engrossing as the two Guardians and K-2's exits, and even Bodhi, a criminally under-explored character, probably got a bigger reaction out of me just because he had more vulnerable moments than the leads.
Finn, Rey, and Kylo all had more impressive character journeys to me, and I feel more emotion watching Finn apologize to Rey for misleading her than I do for any Cassian and Jyn interaction. Rogue One's biggest advantage was the approach to the final battle in space; I actually like the lightsaber battle in TFA more than most of the ground fight in RO, but seeing them realize that ROTJ should be your inspiration for space battles instead of ANH was very good. I hope to see that kind of chaos and choreography in space in TLJ.
Watched them back to back this weekend. It is TFA, no contest imo. The characters are so much stronger in TFA, and because of that the big and small moments are just superior. One major problem for RO is that the story itself doesn't lend itself to getting to know the characters, and yet the final act kind of hinges on caring for them. It is a far cry from the work done with Rey, Kylo, Han and Finn, who are the core of TFA finale. I still quite like RO though, the space battle is probably the best in SW history and the Vader scene will always be glorious.
I probably like RO less now than when I first saw it. I think it's a good movie that does some interesting things, but over time its lack of strong character arc and dimension has stood out more. It's a very important, fundamental thing that TFA does much better in comparison.
I need to watch TFA again but I have watched RO about 5 times now and appreciate it more each time. The script is very well done and I think the characters are great. I feel Jyn and Cassian both develop in the short time they have. This movie covers a brief period of a few missions and then the final battle. They both grow into characters that are willing to risk their lives to defeat the Empire. That was good enough for me for character development. Also, throw in that the technology and look of the movie match the OT perfectly then that was a major plus. I got the same feel for this movie that I did when I was much younger seeing each OT movie. When ESB came out we noticed new characters and vehicles. This movie was the same - it introduced new types of stormtroopers, new slightly modded ships. I felt like a kid again. Not so with TFA but I will give it a second viewing.
It's not really fair, because I liked TFA just fine, but I loved RO.
TFA felt just a bit synthetic, as if there was a very clinical analysis of the appeal of the OT, where the prequels may have erred, and then a story was constructed from the resulting data.
RO felt organic. And while both exploited nostalgia, the result in TFA was feelings of warmth and some pleasant surprises, while in RO there was an urgency, shock and heightened emotion to the point that I was both thrilled and in tears at the end. And it does something incredible, which is make the experience of another film, ANH, that much richer.
I liked The Force Awakens.
I passionately love Rogue One.
Finally voted TFA, as others have said I cared for the characters more, the new Ines introduced I loved, and it gave us a great re-introduction to the existing ones. RO is very good. TFA is excellent for me.
I recently re-watched all the Star Wars movies, and when I got to TFA I felt like it was jokes a minute, and nonstop running here and there just so it would feel fast paced. Half the time characters make irrational decisions, or seem very overpowered; and it feels like it's more concerned with setting up a bunch of mysteries than it is providing a satisfying piece of storytelling. I could criticize the story direction, art/design direction, and endless fanservice; but I hate to rant too much. Kylo Ren was intriguing, but I can't say anything else in this movie makes me excited for Ep. VIII.
Rogue One on the other hand, I thought was great. It has well-placed humor, but also has very serious and gritty undertones - just like A New Hope did. People say the characters are underdeveloped, which I disagree with. Sure it's an ensemble film so everyone gets less screen time, but I felt like the characters were likable and very cool, and I left wanting to see more of them. I don't get the complaint that Rogue One has too much fanservice. Because it has has X-wings and Tie Fighters? That's like complaining that a WW1 movie has Mark IV tanks, it's just tech that existed at the time period...and it has new ships. I also don't get why people say the first half of Rogue One is boring. Because it's not nonstop action and running around? Because characters have interaction? The first half sets up the plot and lets us breathe and take in the characters, stakes, and situations, which is why the end battle feels so satisfying - it's the payoff to everything the first half set up.
Overall, Rogue One feels like it has a certain dignity to it - a certain dignity Star Wars has had since the beginning, and for me The Force Awakens just lacks that dignity.
That's surprisingly spot-on last time I watched TFA.
The first half of Rogue One is boring (I couldn't finish) because the interactions and exposition were awkwardly directed. I understood what's happening in front of me, but there's no emotional pull towards any of it. For whatever reason, the Droid (as much as it was poorly injected into this) seemed like an actual attempt at getting the audience to care. The first action scene with the team fighting the troopers really made me realize how unusual this all felt.
For all the people that like TFA better because it was 'nostalgic', there's a better way to get your nostalgia fix. Watch the originals. They are wall to wall nostalgia. I'd rather get an original story (even one ripped off from the EU, that we haven't seen in film). One that gives us a new chapter in the star wars universe, not simply a rehash of an old one.
Its harder to get into Rogue One bc its a one and done tale who's characters are rather insignificant in the overall saga. I didnt find myself caring about the characters or plot bc overall it wouldnt matter. TFA carries more weight in terms of the characters and pushing the franchise forward. To me, thats why I found it more enjoyable.
It seems like a lot of people think Jyn is a poor character, but am I the only one who likes her a lot better than Rey?
I thought Jyn's struggle was more pronounced and l felt for her more. She was jaded and world-weary, but it felt earned. She had a hard life, heck, she watched her mom get murdered in front of her and her dad kidnapped by the Empire.
The filmmakers tried to make Rey sympathetic, but her world-weariness felt forced. Couldn't she just leave Jakku and get better work off planet? Unlike Luke there was nothing pressuring her into staying. She was the one hurting herself, she could have left a hologram or something for her family letting them know where to find her (if that was even why she wanted to say, it was all so vague).
In terms of personality, I thought Jyn felt more well-rounded. She was jaded and tough, but I thought she also seemed nice and caring. The more I watch TFA, the more I realize that Rey is actually kind of cold and even a bit grumpy towards everyone. Her first interaction with a character was snapping at BB-8 for no particular reason. What makes it worse is that none of it felt earned. I get the feeling the filmmakers were more focused on making her tough and self-reliant, but forgot to make her likable.
I'm inclined to agree. I actually loved TFA when it first came out, but the more I watch it, the less I enjoy it. I notice more and more similarities between it and A New Hope (as well as other OT movies), but since motivations are lacking and characters are underdeveloped, I'd rather just watch ANH.
Rogue One by a wide-margin. I've given The Force Awakens plenty of opportunities to impress me, but I find it to be dull and uninspired. I've never been more bored watching a Star Wars movie than I did watching The Force Awakens for the first time, whereas once Rogue One started I was hooked.
1. The Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Rogue One
4. Revenge of the Sith
5. The Phantom Menace
6. Return of the Jedi
7. Attack of the Clone
8. The Force Awakens
Recently I rewatched all the Star Wars movies in chronological order, and I also felt slightly bored during the Force Awakens. I found it exciting when I first watched it in theaters, but I get the feeling that as the years go on I'll return to TFA less than most of the others. It just seems more mindless, and lacks much real substance. I don't like the prequels much, but I at least admire some of their ambition, and it's clear that Lucas had a good story in his head, it just wasn't presented that well. TFA just seems like JJ Abrams had some fun nostalgic scenes in his head, and he found a way to string them together into something resembling a story.
TFA still holds up plenty for me, still one of the best movies in franchise. Rogue One was great, but I rank it slightly below TFA.
I love the prequels, but I do admit they have their flaws and could have been executed better. I pretty much love all the films except for TFA, which like you I felt lacked substance. I also lack the desire to really watch it again until the release of TLJ. In fact, I have to say I've only watched TFA about seven times in it's entirety and haven't touched it since May 2016. On the other hand, I've watched RO about twenty times and I'm always itching to watch it again in just the span of around six months.
Glad to see you, like most others, find far more enjoyment out of TFA than I do. I may not like it much, but I'm still glad it exists.
I just watched Rogue One last week, and I already could watch it again! Every time I watch it I notice new details, but every time I watch TFA I just notice more errors.
Honestly even as someone who does consider the prequels to be very flawed films I just get the feeling people committed to the idea of TFA being a classic film well before release. It just seemed like the poster child of endless net/youtube videos bashing the prequels and singing the praises of simple blockbuster formulas. Personally I think it ended up exposing a lot of such analysis as quiet frankly rather simplistic, basically pandering to a audience rather than looking to inform them.
Personally for me even after a year and a half its aged really badly as the nostalgia/hype has worn off. Actually moreso even than ABrams Trek films that did at least have more charisma in the cast, I think he ends up trapped between going for the larger than life style Marvel do so well and something more naturalistic and ends up doing neither well. Under all of that as well I think Abrams is just not a very good writer, his films end up being incredibly plot driven throwing the characters from scene after scene of action/nostalgia/humour rather than focusing on them.
Rogue One in comparison felt much more like a film from someone with respect for the originals. For all the talk of it being darker/grittier I feel it actually gets very close to Empire in tone, what people are IMHO reacting to is that it feels rather out of phase with the modern blockbuster style that the original films are erroneously linked to. Beyond the "nerfherder" like quotes that's really a film sold with more subtle writing/acting, plus the humour is much drier and wittier as with K2 rather than goofball meta comedy.
It could have ended up as a very plot driven film as well but as with Empire I think what we get is a strong character focus which the more detailed plot is in service of. Something like the section on Eadu for example really doesn't advance the cause of getting the Deathstar plans much but does obviously advance the characters significantly.
So Rogue One by a country mile.
I think you're hitting the nail right on the head. I frequently refer to TFA as "the anti-prequel" because it was specifically tailored to pander to the prequel-hating crowd, but it has a lot of problems that people were blinded to because they were so busy noticing how "it wasn't like the prequels".
What's funny is that it actually shares a lot in common with the prequels. No, it doesn't have Jar Jar stepping in poodoo, but it does have underdeveloped characters, a convoluted storyline, vague motivations, and lack of a clear protagonist. It's funny that the movie was so intent on not being like the prequels, but all they avoided were superficial details, not actual story problems
I also agree with your stance on Rogue One's humor. It feels more dignified and Star Wars-y. TFA kind of feels like a sitcom at times.