Rogue One vs. The Force Awakens

Discussion in 'Rogue One: A Star Wars Story' started by Erzengel, Dec 27, 2016.

?

Which Star Wars movie did you like better?

  1. Rogue One

  2. The Force Awakens

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  1. Snow Queen

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    You seriously have problems figuring out who the protagonist of TFA is?
     
  2. DarthSkywalker

    DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    And I was told BvS was took complex for my wittle mind. Had do idea the movie that ends with Rey accepting the Force, defeating the villain in a lightsaber duel (with the Skywalker lightsaber no less), and finding Luke Skywalker to train her would be too complicated to figure out. :funny:
     
  3. Mr. Forest

    Mr. Forest Registered

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    Constable Zuvio?
     
  4. Snow Queen

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    It was very clearly Sidon Ithano, how could you be this blind? It's his story, start to finish.
     
  5. Grootster

    Grootster Dancing Tree

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    Luke Skywaker (original trilogy):

    (Conflicted farm boy > reluctant hero > wants to save the princess > saves the Rebellion)

    Finn:

    (Bad guy > cowardly runaway > expresses desire to help friends > fights alongside the Resistance)

    Rey:

    (Wants to be left alone > wants to go back home > refuses to take up weapon > is incapacitated for a while> escapes captivity for personal safety > takes up lightsaber for personal safety)

    Rey is a supporting character (and not even a great one like Han Solo was in ANH) who was bizarrely placed in the protagonist role. She makes no decisions that affect the story (at least not intentionally), and she has no growth or character arc. She's a tagalong, and not even a willing/eager one. Some people will point out that she willingly went off in search of Luke, but there was zero motivation for her to do so, it just happened for convenience sake despite that character trait never existing.

    I've heard people argue that Finn is the true protagonist, but even he isn't really the hero of the movie in he same since that Luke was (or Frodo was in Lord of the Rings).
     
  6. Mr. Forest

    Mr. Forest Registered

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    :hehe:

    But truly, we all know the protagonist is Rae.
     
  7. DarthSkywalker

    DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    I am being punk'd right? Even using your bizarre take on the plot, she has obvious growth and is clearly the protagonist. You have never heard of the reluctant hero? :doh:
     
  8. DarthSkywalker

    DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    Is that the porn version of Rey? :o
     
  9. Mr. Forest

    Mr. Forest Registered

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    No, Rae Sloane. Former Grand Admiral of the Empire and (possibly) a founder of the First Order.



    READ THE BOOKS

    :oldrazz:

    J/K, but she's an awesome character. I was just hoping someone would fall for my trap regarding the name. :woot:
     
  10. Grootster

    Grootster Dancing Tree

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    I mentioned "reluctant hero" when I described Luke's character arc, look at the first section of my above post. Rey isn't a reluctant hero because she's not a hero, she's more of a reluctant tagalong. Point out one time she does something that benefits the the greater good, or even benefits her friends. (If your answer is going in search of Luke, you may want to explain what her motivation was, because I still say convenience of plot.)

    If you're sure Rey was the main protagonist and that she has growth, try describing her growth in the same way I did above:

    (character at start > change of heart > maybe another significant scene or two > character at end)
     
  11. DarthSkywalker

    DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    Reasons why this clearly wrong:

    1. Rey is no more a tag along then Luke in Star Wars. In that film, Leia wasn't looking for the help of a farm boy. She was looking for the help of a a former Jedi Knight, Obi-Wan Kenobi. It is Kenobi that takes Luke along with him.

    In TFA it is Rey who gets Finn and BB-8 off Jakku, otherwise he and the BB-8 would be dead. Rey is far more active in that regard then Luke ever is.

    2. Moments Rey does something for the greater good or to save her friends:

    - When she saves BB-8 from the scavenger.

    - When she refuses to sell BB-8 to Unkar Plutt.

    - When she beats the crap out of those trying to steal BB-8.

    - Getting BB-8 and Finn off Jakku.

    - When she decides to take BB-8 and Finn to the Resistance base.

    - When she attempts but fails to close the doors on the Eravana.

    - When she saves Finn from the Rathtar by closing the doors.

    - When she stays back to allow BB-8 to escape on Takodana (this leads to her being captured).

    - When she takes up the lightsaber to protect Finn.

    - When she seeks out Luke Skywalker at the end of the film.

    3. Rey the character. She is a young and lonely woman who has been scarred by the disappearance of her parents. Because of this, she is reluctant to make relationships, and holds onto the faint hope they will return one day. Perhaps to make getting through each day bearable.

    Through the film she is forced to confront the idea of forming relationship, gaining responsibilities beyond taking care of herself. And while reluctant, she continues to proves herself willing to herself and her friends.

    The turning point for her character is the lightsaber vision and Maz talk. In that moment she is forced to confront the hard truth she never wanted to. The thing that kept her bound to Jakku. The fact that her parents are never coming back for her. That is terrifying for many reason, not least of which it means they are probably dead. It also means the the comforting narrative she lived by, the one that gave her purpose, the thing that kept her moving day after day, was gone. That that has an emotional toll on her, along with finding out you might be some mystical Force user, isn't odd. It makes perfect sense and has a profound effect on her.

    And when she could have ran, abandoned BB-8, she didn't. She fought to protect him and then was captured for her efforts. In her confrontation with Kylo, she realizes the Force is very real and it is something she is attached to.

    Her search for Luke at the end is as much about her as it is about the "greater good". The return of Luke gives the Resistance and the galaxy a chance. The return of the Jedi is what can save them. On the other hand, it also gives Rey a purpose. Purpose she lost when she accepted that her family wasn't coming back. But she can only accept this purpose by walking away from her new "family".

    It is telling that Rey continues to find herself family as she goes along. BB-8, Finn, Han, Chewie. It makes her arc crystal clear, while also making her having to leave Finn and BB-8 behind an obvious nod to her character progression. She finally has what she has truly always wanted. Friends and family, and yet she puts them aside to try and bring back the Jedi.

    She goes from a lonely girl stuck on Jakku afraid of the truth, to one who has make-shifted herself a family and given herself a purpose.
     
    #86 DarthSkywalker, Jun 22, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
  12. Grootster

    Grootster Dancing Tree

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    I'm spoiler tagging my response so it won't be too long.

    The difference is that Luke's change of heart happens early on in the film (when his uncle and aunt die). Rey is dragged across the galaxy on an adventure she doesn't want to be part of and complains about for large amount of the runtime.

    Yes, Rey preforms the physical action of piloting the ship, but it was Finn's decision to get off planet. Rey kept wanting to go back to the status quo while Finn wanted to push forward.

    -She saves a piece of hardware from a scavenger who should be just as entitled to the droid as she is to the scrap she finds. She then tells him to go to a town filled with scavengers.

    - Fair enough

    - Fair enough

    - I explained this above

    - 5 minutes after saying she wants to go back to Jakku (?????)

    - Fair enough

    - Fair enough

    - I didn't pick up on (or forget) any motivation during this scene. I just assumed she was trying to escape from the whole situation.

    - Or to defend herself, or for revenge (which could have been an interesting character flaw if it was shown to be the reason - but it's not.)

    - I didn't buy this very well.

    I will admit that there are moments she cares for friends, but it's all so inconsistently written that it loses meaning. It's not a natural progression, she flip-flops throughout the movie. "I want to go back to Jakku." [5 minutes later] "We have to take BB-8 to your base." [20 minutes later] "Finn, you can't leave us, you have to fight for what's right." [5 minutes later] "I don't want take that lightsaber."

    Finn had a natural progression. Not the greatest progression, but still more than Rey did.

    In theory this is a great idea, but because of JJ's whole mystery box thing, we're still very unclear as to her origins and everything is left so vague. Do we even know for sure if it's her parents she's waiting for? If they abandoned her on a harsh desert (in the process killing her trust for people as you say), why does she miss them and want them to return? Even if she does want them back, why doesn't she just get better work off-planet and leave a message on Jakku telling them where to find her?

    They tried to make her a sympathetic character, but in no way does she feel trapped. She's in this position because of herself. She had every option to leave and begin a better life, but she chooses to live in the past and pout. Contrast this to Luke, where his Aunt and Uncle guilted him into leaving, making Luke a truly sympathetic character. Even worse, because of the poorly-written BB-8 fiasco mentioned above, she comes across as sort of grumpy, hypocritical person who spends her time toying with fellow scavengers.

    If they were intentionally playing this up as a character flaw that she has to overcome it actually would of been great, but she was supposed to be a sympathetic character, and I just didn't buy it.

    Initially I thought this too, (and the scene was sort of played that way) but it couldn't have been. She refuses to take the lightsaber, and leaves acting like she doesn't want any part of it.

    Well, as I said above I thought she did run, but I may be mis-remembering the scene. If so, fair enough I suppose.

    On a side note, how can she go from thinking Luke and the Force are myths, but knowing Darth Vader by name?

    I feel like you're reading into stuff that may have not been there. And I don't consider Rey going after Luke to have much significance. No one was there to even witness her defeat of Kylo, so why did the Resistance trust her enough to go almost alone to find a guy who is supposedly the key to saving the galaxy. Shouldn't they have sent half the fleet and Leia? What I'm saying is that obviously anyone could have gone to find Luke, this wasn't anything Rey-specific. She never earned the right to be the one to do such an important task. If it were part of her arc, they should have included a scene where she asks to be the one to go. Instead we just awkwardly cut to her leaving the base without any explanation.

    So in short her arc is finding a family of friends and believing in the Jedi? Okay, I'll give you that she at least has an arc and some growth (although I still say some of that may be reading a little too hard), but that's more along the lines of an arc for a supporting character, not a protagonist. She may change, but she doesn't end the film as a hero in the same sense that Luke does.

    It's going to be a super controversial opinion, but I believe that Finn was intended to be the protagonist of the film, and at some point during production the focus was changed to Rey for some reason, but the story wasn't re-written enough to make her a solid main character. Finn has a much more traditional character progression (cowardly bad guy to heroic good guy), whereas Rey's is much more in line with a Han Solo-type supporting character (believing in the Force, finding a family). I also remember a lot more promotion around Boyega than Ridley back when the cast was first being announced. I was actually surprised when I saw the movie and Finn wasn't in the lead role.
     
  13. DarthSkywalker

    DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    I am not going to spoiler tag, because all you had to do was use the numbers I provided. :funny:

    1. Rey is not dragged across the galaxy. She goes willingly. She even gets upset with Finn when he decides he is done helping BB-8 get to the Resistance. Her intended plan is to return home, but she is also determined to deliver BB-8 and Finn to the Resistance base first. This is why she needs the info on the location of the Resistance base. This is never contradicted.

    Furthermore, her reason for going back is fairly obvious and goes to her character arc. She is a young woman waiting for her family.

    This is all stuff directly shown or stated in the movie. That you missed it or are simply conveniently forgetting that it happens to attempt to bolster your argument is an error on your part, not the films.

    2. Her origins being vague is irrelevant. It isn't a question of who her parents are, but the idea that she must let go of the false hope they will someday return to save her from her life. She is trapped by the idea. She needs to save herself.

    Also, since when is being left alone to a basic life of slavery from a young age in a harsh environment, and the accompanying issues that come with that, become a person's fault? :funny:

    And nope. The original leaks, which came like a year before the film even started filming, which labelled the villain the Solo son and a planet as a weapon, had the main character as a female. Every last bit of production art has backed this up, from that officially released, to the art that was leaked. The female character was always the Force Sensitive main character. And thankfully she ended up being a great one.
     
  14. Grootster

    Grootster Dancing Tree

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    I detect a lot of reading into stuff that may not even be there. Even if some of what you claim was there intentionally (and I do have my doubts), it was far too undefined to put her on par a character like Luke. I'm all for subtlety and not spoonfeeding everything to the audience, but Rey goes beyond even that. You can find meaning in anything if you look for it, what you're doing reminds me a lot of people who over-analyze the prequels and swear that characters like Darth Maul have deep motivation and personality.

    At best, Rey is an Indiana Jones-type character. A grumpy, jaded loner who doesn't have a character arc or much impact on the story, but still manages to be cool anyway. At worst she's slightly unlikable, and doesn't have a strongly developed personality, which is what saves Indy.

    Anakin in TPM was a slave, he was legitimately trapped into his situation by a literal slave owner. Rey wasn't a slave, 20 minutes into the movie she pilots herself off-planet. Presumably she could have even hitched a ride on another leaving ship. The movie made it entirely clear that she's there because she wanted to stay.

    Are you referring to the Making Star Wars leaks? The bulk of those came out only months before the film was released (May of 2015, I believe?) It could have been changed early in production, or even in pre-production (as early as 2014, or 2013). Even if my theory is false, I disagree that she's a great character. Like the entire movie she was serviceable (in that she arguably wasn't as bland as some of the prequel characters and she was decently acted), but she's not nearly on par with great characters like Luke or Frodo.
     
  15. DarthSkywalker

    DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    No, the only one reading anything into anything is you in an attempt to make your poorly constructed argument, based on stuff you made up, work. Everything I stated is shown or spoken about in the film. I can even point to the scenes and lines of dialogue, unlike you who just made things up like Rey wanting to go back to Jakku before dropping off Finn and BB-8. Probably because you maybe saw the movie once so you could complain about it.

    Rey in TFA is a better character then Luke in Star Wars. Now Luke, my favorite character of all time, ended up with two more films and arguably the best arc in film history. But it would be a little unfair to compare one movie to three, wouldn't it. :cwink:

    Yeah, Indy totally doesn't have an character arc. *pops in the Last Crusade*

    Welp, wrong again. Also since when was being Indy a bad thing. One of the most beloved characters in the history of fiction? :funny:

    Yes, at 10 years old she could totally leave on her own, especially as she expected her family to return. Did you read what you just wrote?

    Its a holding pattern, a psychological block. They make it so clear, they show it in her vision and Maz even tells her she has to let it go. And that block comes from the trauma of her youth.

    No. I am referring to the original leaks. MSW didn't have them, and they were very short. Obviously from an earlier version of the script.

    Considering the reaction to Rey, you are clearly in the minority on your thoughts on the character. The woman is already beloved by audiences.
     
    #90 DarthSkywalker, Jun 23, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  16. Snow Queen

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    Don't even need to take it from leaks. You can take it from the mouth of the original writer.
    http://ew.com/article/2015/12/20/jj-abrams-answers-burning-question-about-r2-d2-star-wars-force-awakens/

    http://www.starwarsunderworld.com/2016/01/michael-arndt-discusses-origins-of.html
     
    #91 Snow Queen, Jun 23, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2017
  17. DarthSkywalker

    DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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  18. Grootster

    Grootster Dancing Tree

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    I've seen the movie at least five times, and I enjoyed it immensely during all three theatrical viewings. And you don't remember Finn's famous "why does everyone want to go back to Jakku" line? He said that because Rey wanted to drop off Finn and BB-8?

    And General Grevious is a better character than Frodo Baggins.

    You do have a point about future movie, I'm hoping that there's still a chance to give Rey more development.

    I was referring to his character in Raiders, specifically.

    I'm not knocking Indy, he's one of my favorite characters. I'm saying that if you want to defend Rey as a good character, you'd have better luck comparing her to someone like Indy than Luke. Indy (in Raiders) wasn't intended to have complex character growth, he doesn't change throughout his adventure, but is likable and fun to watch all the same.

    She wasn't ten years old during the events of the movie.

    So let me get this straight: to understand Rey's character I have to be familiar with complex psychological issues and relate them to a vague backstory that we barely even see? Jyn Erso's parents were killed and kidnapped in front of her, and she grew into a jaded and world-weary adult. THAT'S how you do it in a high-concept adventure movie, not all this bizarre convoluted nonsense.

    The first legitimate plot leak I'm aware of came out around May 2015 from MSW, and even that was only semi-accurate. If anything came out before then I wasn't aware. Considering how much secrecy there was around TFA, I think there's a chance that any script leaks that came out earlier were probably fake.

    Oh, that's no surprise considering the popcorn-munching public still flips out over wonderfully in-depth characters like Darth Maul.
     
  19. DarthSkywalker

    DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    Yes. She specifically says, "I'll drop you two at the Ponemah Terminal." I think we can assume this will provide them passage to the Ileenium system, or might even be in the Ileenium system. Unless you think she is just randomly abandoning them.

    Further, Finn's use of those words are in a reference to Poe who was trying to get BB-8 back to get the plans to the base. Finn goes on questioning why'd she go back. Whether she has family or a boyfriend.

    It isn't, "why are you abandoning us". Its, "why would you go back to that awful place when you can fly and go anywhere". And as we know, she is waiting for her family. Finn isn't a Rebel, and doesn't want anything to do with this war. He clearly see Rey as a potential travelling companion.

    Oh, I am sure they plan to do nothing for her for two movies.

    Are you suggesting Luke has a complex character growth in Star Wars?

    You are changing your argument from, "she has no arc" to "its not that complex". While also complaining bout the complexity of her arc being too hard for you to understand. :funny:

    Yes, because as we all know, nothing that happens as a kid as an effect on you as adult....

    It isn't complex at all. She has abandonment issues. They make it clear she is waiting for her family, even if it is unlikely. She has convinced herself they are coming back. She tells BB-8, she has her vision and Maz tells her. You even have Kylo mentioning she sees Han as the father she never had. :funny:

    But I love this. It kills your argument that she has no arc, so just label it convoluted.

    Well no, it wasn't. Because you didn't follow the project like I did. But is irrelevant because as the wonderful Snow Queen showed, the original screenwriter Ardnt shows that the main character from the start was Rey. But I am sure you didn't miss that, did you? :yay:

    Ah, back to insulting. How sweet. A surefire way to prove your argument correct.
     
  20. Snow Queen

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    That's Finn to a T.
     
  21. DarthSkywalker

    DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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  22. Grootster

    Grootster Dancing Tree

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    If you feel like Rey is a well-written character with a strong arc and personality, than more power to you. I'm glad you can find enjoyment in a character, I by no means hate her, I just think she could have been written and developed a lot better. Preference of storytelling techniques are pretty subjective, so neither of us is going to be able to "prove" our position, so I'll quit trying. I still stand by my position that TFA has no clear protagonist.

    How in any way, shape, or form is this an insult? You are trying to use the fact that the public loves Rey as proof is that she's a good character, and I'm pointing out that the public loves pretty much anything Star Wars, no matter how underdeveloped. Characters like Darth Maul become pop culture icons simply because of a cool design, so I don't think the people's reception means much at all in terms of how well-executed a character is.
     
  23. DarthSkywalker

    DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    Why are you avoiding Snow Queen's post? :funny:
     
  24. Grootster

    Grootster Dancing Tree

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    The one where he made a joke about Finn?
     
  25. DarthSkywalker

    DarthSkywalker May the Force Be With You

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    The one where she proved the very words of the original script writer on how Rey was the hero from the start.
     

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