Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Zev]

Just to make things fair, I say that whenever a writer wants to retcon a rape into a female character's past, he also has to retcon sexual abuse into a male character's past. That oughta keep things even. Rape does not magically make a two-dimensional character complex, it just makes them a two-dimensional character that's been raped. And it often destroys (literally, in Sue Dibny's case) what made the character compelling in the first place by replacing it with teh angst

Black Cat works best as the Other Woman. She used to be an immature bubblehead, she grew up and realized her crush is never going to be in love with her and if she presses the point she'll lose Peter's friendship, so she's moved on. Which, of course, leads to lots of sexual tension which can be refreshing when your two romantic leads are characters who are married and thus usually have no "I WANT to... but I can't... but I want TO." But when written poorly, she's just the Biyatch. And she's been written poorly a lot.

Oh, here's another one for the list.

Rahne Wolfsbane - Sexually abused by priest/father, retcon.

 

[Zev]

I should also note that Kevin Smith intends for Francis (the man who was raped by his brother throughout his childhood and into adulthood) to become the new Mysterio, apparently to atone for killing off the original Mysterio in Daredevil: Guardian Devil (there's a bit of poetic irony in a Spider-Man villain being killed and resurrected well outside the Spider-Man core titles. It'd be kinda like if Superman accidentally killed Two-Face and one of Nightwing's cast members got splashed with acid to replace him). Two problems with this. One, the new Mysterio has a teleportation gimmick to go along with the "old" powers, thus diluting the classic simplicity of "Master of Illusion." Why does he need to teleport if he can just use holograms and smoke bombs to achieve pretty much the same thing?

Second, and this is the really big one from my point of view, WHO'S GOING TO CHEER SPIDER-MAN ON AS HE BEATS UP AN INCEST SURVIVOR? The original Mysterio was an egotistical blowhard with a silly hat. You could root for Spider-Man to humiliate him. Who's going to laugh if Spider-Man mocks the helmet of a man who's been anally raped repeatedly and later became a rapist himself? And just when I thought "Al" Kraven was the most boneheaded attempt to continue the legacy of a Dikto villain.

Like Dr. Light, a mostly harmless villain has been "upgraded" into yet another oh-so-scary human monster. And like Girly!Ock, Young!Vulture, Clone!Spider-Man, and all the other "upgrades," I doubt he's going to last long. Since Kevin Smith doesn't have the clout of JMS (who tried to force Gray Goblin down our throats twice, first with the no-winner Sins Past arc and again with the agony-inducing Sins Remember, which proved that France and teasings of pedophilia/infidelity do not make good bedfellows), Marvel doesn't have time to futz around with a new rogue. We've still got The Other aftermath to burn through (with the Other him/herself to be shoved down our throats, hopefully in a manner that won't prove as tiresome as a certain Lethal Protector), then the new suit and Civil War, plus the Spider-Man 3 tie-ins.

Looking back, I can't help but think that someday the Big Two will realize they've shot themselves in the foot by tearing through their B-list and comic relief characters for cheap shock value (I'm looking at you, DC. What did the JLI ever do to piss you off so much?). If we've learned nothing else from the nineties, it's that the soul-rending moorass of angst and despair quickly proves tiresome. We really DON'T wnt to see Buffy Summers get into an abusive relationship with Spike and suffer from depression. We really DON'T want to see Spider-Man knock around his pregnant wife because his entire existance is a lie. We want the triumphs along with the tragedies, the pratfalls as well as the pitfalls, the tears of laughter with the tears of sorrow... like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives...

Alright, so I'm pretentious. Doesn't mean I'm not right.

 

[Herr Logan]

I should also note that Kevin Smith intends for Francis (the man who was raped by his brother throughout his childhood and into adulthood) to become the new Mysterio, apparently to atone for killing off the original Mysterio in Daredevil: Guardian Devil (there's a bit of poetic irony in a Spider-Man villain being killed and resurrected well outside the Spider-Man core titles. It'd be kinda like if Superman accidentally killed Two-Face and one of Nightwing's cast members got splashed with acid to replace him). Two problems with this. One, the new Mysterio has a teleportation gimmick to go along with the "old" powers, thus diluting the classic simplicity of "Master of Illusion." Why does he need to teleport if he can just use holograms and smoke bombs to achieve pretty much the same thing?

Second, and this is the really big one from my point of view, WHO'S GOING TO CHEER SPIDER-MAN ON AS HE BEATS UP AN INCEST SURVIVOR? The original Mysterio was an egotistical blowhard with a silly hat. You could root for Spider-Man to humiliate him. Who's going to laugh if Spider-Man mocks the helmet of a man who's been anally raped repeatedly and later became a rapist himself? And just when I thought "Al" Kraven was the most boneheaded attempt to continue the legacy of a Dikto villain.

Like Dr. Light, a mostly harmless villain has been "upgraded" into yet another oh-so-scary human monster. And like Girly!Ock, Young!Vulture, Clone!Spider-Man, and all the other "upgrades," I doubt he's going to last long. Since Kevin Smith doesn't have the clout of JMS (who tried to force Gray Goblin down our throats twice, first with the no-winner Sins Past arc and again with the agony-inducing Sins Remember, which proved that France and teasings of pedophilia/infidelity do not make good bedfellows), Marvel doesn't have time to futz around with a new rogue. We've still got The Other aftermath to burn through (with the Other him/herself to be shoved down our throats, hopefully in a manner that won't prove as tiresome as a certain Lethal Protector), then the new suit and Civil War, plus the Spider-Man 3 tie-ins.

Looking back, I can't help but think that someday the Big Two will realize they've shot themselves in the foot by tearing through their B-list and comic relief characters for cheap shock value (I'm looking at you, DC. What did the JLI ever do to piss you off so much?). If we've learned nothing else from the nineties, it's that the soul-rending moorass of angst and despair quickly proves tiresome. We really DON'T wnt to see Buffy Summers get into an abusive relationship with Spike and suffer from depression. We really DON'T want to see Spider-Man knock around his pregnant wife because his entire existance is a lie. We want the triumphs along with the tragedies, the pratfalls as well as the pitfalls, the tears of laughter with the tears of sorrow... like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives...

Alright, so I'm pretentious. Doesn't mean I'm not right.

No, it certainly does not mean that.

A big "Yeah, that's right" to Zev and his colorful commentary on subjects I don't have the stomach to address right now. Seriously, my digestive system is giving me hell right now, or I'd write something substantial in response.

Thanks muchly for posting, Zev. That part about fans probably not wanting to cheer Spider-Man on for beating up an incest-rape victim should really have been considered by Smith before he went that far.

Perhaps my wish will still come true someday; the wish where the real Mysterio (who in no way conclusively died... you're going to trust a blind superhero-- with supersenses well studied by his enemies-- to tell us when an ingenious master of illusion has truly killed himself? I don't think so!) turns up alive and having been the mastermind behind his own fake death, the utter lie that was "Sins Past" and all related stories, Wolverine's apparent mimickry of the Multiple Man's powers, Disassembled, the House of M, everything else Bendis has ever done, and then he kills off the new Mysterio before he can get all the way through one arc. Oh yes, and I also wish for world peace and unlimited pie.

 

[The Lizard]

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7811626&postcount=270

Sic 'em, Herr Logan.

 

[Herr Logan]

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7811626&postcount=270

Sic 'em, Herr Logan.

Lizard, you trouble-maker, you.

Reggiebar is actually Doc Ock's responsibility for the time being. If Ock can't properly instruct and correct this insolent whelp to our satisfaction, further intervention may be necessary.

 

[Cullen]

Lizard, you trouble-maker, you.

Reggiebar is actually Doc Ock's responsibility for the time being. If Ock can't properly instruct and correct this insolent whelp to our satisfaction, further intervention may be necessary.

AND THE SKIES WILL BE RED AS BLOOD AND THE SEAS BOILING PITCH AS THE UNBELIEVERS PERISH BENEATH OUR RIGHTEOUS WRATH!!!!!!

And everybody gets cookies afterwards. That's the bestest part

 

[Herr Logan]

AND THE SKIES WILL BE RED AS BLOOD AND THE SEAS BOILING PITCH AS THE UNBELIEVERS PERISH BENEATH OUR RIGHTEOUS WRATH!!!!!!

And everybody gets cookies afterwards. That's the bestest part

"So say we all!!"

*Just watched the 'Battlestar Galactica' miniseries (the pilot for the current TV series) on DVD. Damn good stuff.

Cullen, when the cookies finish baking in the Oven of Heaven, you get first dibs for your heartwarming display of faithfulness and passion.

 

[The Joker]

Reggiebar is actually Doc Ock's responsibility for the time being. If Ock can't properly instruct and correct this insolent whelp to our satisfaction, further intervention may be necessary.

You doubt my capibilities at handling the ignorant??

I am constantly battling against that type of ignornace in the SM-3 forums,with little to no help from others.If words don't convince them,then whip out the scanner and provide comic scans.That usually works

reggiebar there,backed down with his tail between his legs,when I scanned some pics showing why MJ really turned down Peter's first marriage proposal,when he had been saying that she just wanted to be a free spirit to get it on with other guys,like the man hopping movie version of MJ does.

 

[Herr Logan]

You doubt my capibilities at handling the ignorant??

I am constantly battling against that type of ignornace in the SM-3 forums,with little to no help from others.If words don't convince them,then whip out the scanner and provide comic scans.That usually works

reggiebar there,backed down with his tail between his legs,when I scanned some pics showing why MJ really turned down Peter's first marriage proposal,when he had been saying that she just wanted to be a free spirit to get it on with other guys,like the man hopping movie version of MJ does.

Doubt your educating skills? Perish the thought!

It's just that Reggiebar kept spouting ignorance after that victory you described, thus leading our esteemed friend The Lizard to bring him to my attention. I assume, of course, that his new bout of blasphemy will be punished and corrected in short order, thus leaving me free to wallow in my own exhaustion. As I've told you, I'm tired of telling errant children and cognitive peasants that which should be obvious when they are so vehemently attached to their petty falsehoods and immoral beliefs. You, however, are still vibrant and ready for action in that regard. Keep up the good work, Ock.

 

[Herr Logan]

Here's another minor idea for my Batman video game concept:

I wrote that I want the Batman to carry and use both Batarangs and Bat-shuriken. Gravity has to play a part for this to be sufficiently complex and realistic, but for the most part, the shuriken would move straight forward and so would a lot of the Batarangs. But how about a secondary option to throw the Batarang in a wide arc that actually returns to the Batman, or at least comes back toward his direction? I think that would be cool, and another way to integrate the Batman's training from the comics into the game. He'd be either somewhere in Africa or Australia (I forget the continent in which he learned to throw a boomerang), and he'd throw boomerangs at targets until he mastered the trick.

I wrote before that when the Batman will throw a Batarang in the game, the player would switch on an ultra-slow-mo "Bat-sense" mode (just like the "Bond Sense" in '007: Everything or Nothing') and then choose a target (there should be an option to manually aim as well), just like every other hand-thrown projectile in the game. This may seem like a clumsy inconvenience, but a reasonably competent player would probably only take a second or two in this mode before making the throw. It's supposed to simulate the Batman's actual ability to think as quickly as necessary to throw a 'rang with pinpoint accuracy, among other things. Anyway, this "Bat-sense" mode would be a good way to allow a wide arc throw.

I don't remember what exactly 'The Official Batman Handbook' says about how to throw one of these things, but my vague impressions of a couple of options of how this would work in a video game are these:
1) The player aims a little to the right and just a tiny bit upwards of the target, in a vaguely visible target zone, and the console or computer helps make the Batarang hit as many targets in reasonable proximity to the curve of the throwing arc as possible.
2) The player aims in the same vicinity as in the above concept, but the curve of the arc is actually displayed in the "Bat-sense" with a visible curved line. It would be up to the player to adjust the arc to hit as many targets as needed and as possible.

What do you guys think?

 

[Zaphod]

Herr Logan, I am planning to type up my version of how a Spider-Man movie should be done, in my opinion and interpretation, it would be in replacement of the first SM movie, and will feature Doc Ock as the villain, Norman and Harry Osborn, Gwen Stacy as a budding love interest, MJ will of course be featured, shown to have a profound effect on Peter, and it will be an origin story for Peter Parker into the web-slinger we all know and love! Which means, the death of Uncle Ben, learning responsibility, etc.

Beleive it or not, I hadn't read your take on SM some ways back in this thread, although I knew it very much existed, but decided to go back and read it. I must say, fantastic work, really great stuff. The comments on Spidey's mask were funny, but so true. I'm going to post my very original ideas for my take on the movie, regardless of comparisons that may be drawn inadvertedly with your own. I hope you enjoy, but of course, be harsh with the criticism!

 

[Herr Logan]

Herr Logan, I am planning to type up my version of how a Spider-Man movie should be done, in my opinion and interpretation, it would be in replacement of the first SM movie, and will feature Doc Ock as the villain, Norman and Harry Osborn, Gwen Stacy as a budding love interest, MJ will of course be featured, shown to have a profound effect on Peter, and it will be an origin story for Peter Parker into the web-slinger we all know and love! Which means, the death of Uncle Ben, learning responsibility, etc.

Beleive it or not, I hadn't read your take on SM some ways back in this thread, although I knew it very much existed, but decided to go back and read it. I must say, fantastic work, really great stuff. The comments on Spidey's mask were funny, but so true. I'm going to post my very original ideas for my take on the movie, regardless of comparisons that may be drawn inadvertedly with your own. I hope you enjoy, but of course, be harsh with the criticism!

Thanks very much for the comments on my Spidey movie ideas. I look forward to reading yours, and I'll try my best to be brutally critical (that's not supposed to happen in this thread, but since you specifically asked for it... ).

 

[Herr Logan]

Herr Logan, I am planning to type up my version of how a Spider-Man movie should be done

I hope you enjoy, but of course, be harsh with the criticism!

How am I supposed to tear you a new one when you keep me waiting?

Only I'm allowed to go for days without following up on my proclaimations of forthcoming writings.


Okay, so does anyone have any thoughts on my minor but somewhat significant idea on the Batarang throw in my precious, hypothetical game, 'Batman: Dark Knight Detective'?

 

[Herr Logan]

Have any of you heard of "viral advertising"? At least I think that's what it's called. My friend, who goes to anime bulletin boards (full of fans just as rabid as we, I'm guessing) told me about this last night; apparently, at least some movie companies bribe some of their fans into unconditionally promoting their productions online by giving them free merchandise. I knew it! I knew I was right to say that certain people on these boards could well be studio plants and that using the words "corporate shill" applied in some cases!

Mmmm... vindication... *drools*

Yeah, this is probably old news, but I hadn't heard that term before, and it's good to hear it from a member of another type of fandom instead of hearing "I'm not a corporate lapdog," "The hell you aren't," "Sheep! you're all sheep," "stop whining, fanboy," etc.

This is the missing piece of the puzzle, or perhaps not. Humans are a petty, tribalistic group that often needs no external incentive to promote something they like to the point that people who dislike it or take issue with specific traits are villified in their eyes. Still, the fact that some companies have a way to "pay" these failure-apologists without putting them on the payroll makes it clear why so many people behave in this disgraceful fashion. I remember that back in ought-zero ('00), websites for the X-Men movie were sending out T-shirts, bumper stickers and buttons to anticipating fans that endorsed Senator Robert Kelly for president and warned the public about mutants. This is probably in the same vein.

Anyway, back to what the purpose of this thread actually is... you people commenting on ideas and posting your own! Like... as in now!

 

[Zev]

Viral advertising has always been around, in one way or another. Only it used to be called word of mouth. Mel Gibson used this to great effect with Passion of the Christ (and Joss Whedon to considerably less effect with Serenity). Gibson used churches to spread the word, Whedon gave screenings to bloggers who promoted his movie. Viral advertising is more dishonest and insidious, sure, but it's a lot less annoying than pop-up ads.

Hell, I'D take money to promote Spider-Man 3. I mean, c'mon, they've got Farmer Hoggett in the cast. Although no amount of money will convince me to shill for Ghost Rider. Hey, I have SOME principles.

 

[SoulManX]

You know I have been think about Time Warner lately.

The Wb HBO and Cartoon Network...

These 3 network should have given DC Comics it first shot to help bring comic back to the mainstream.

CN should have more DC animated program and less anime.

HBO should be for the Vertigo and Wildstorm think about Swamp Thing on HBO or Sandman.

And finally The WB now being called the CW it should have had DC Comic heroes not getting big screen treatment. Like a Black Lightning tv show or more intuned Birds of Prey.

Also DC Comic should have fought harder to get more done in house with those 3.

 

[Herr Logan]

Viral advertising has always been around, in one way or another. Only it used to be called word of mouth. Mel Gibson used this to great effect with Passion of the Christ (and Joss Whedon to considerably less effect with Serenity). Gibson used churches to spread the word, Whedon gave screenings to bloggers who promoted his movie. Viral advertising is more dishonest and insidious, sure, but it's a lot less annoying than pop-up ads.

Hell, I'D take money to promote Spider-Man 3. I mean, c'mon, they've got Farmer Hoggett in the cast. Although no amount of money will convince me to shill for Ghost Rider. Hey, I have SOME principles.

Oh, you would, would you?

The second I smell the stench of shillness comin' off o' you, you're gettin' tossed out on the sidewalk!

 

[Zev]

Oh, c'mon, you know I would never sell out... not even to promote X3: The Last Stand, starring Oscar winner Halle Berry and Sir Ian McKellan! Join the evolution, May 26!

 

[Herr Logan]

You know I have been think about Time Warner lately.

The Wb HBO and Cartoon Network...

These 3 network should have given DC Comics it first shot to help bring comic back to the mainstream.

CN should have more DC animated program and less anime.

HBO should be for the Vertigo and Wildstorm think about Swamp Thing on HBO or Sandman.

And finally The WB now being called the CW it should have had DC Comic heroes not getting big screen treatment. Like a Black Lightning tv show or more intuned Birds of Prey.

Also DC Comic should have fought harder to get more done in house with those 3.

I think they should be churching out animated movies for both DC and Marvel characters, on TV and/or in theaters. Or maybe even full CGI. Those kinds of movies tend to rely more heavily on script and less on whatever bull$hit the director adopts as his "vision." I have a feeling that if they made these serious projects, they'd be far better. Sure, it'd be great if they could finally put their egos and misinformed focus groups aside and actually make live action movies about these characters in their finest forms (or finest early forms, if there will be sequels that lead up to a later finest form) that not only wow the kiddies and shallow young adults, but also stimulate and reward the people who see true complexity and brilliant comedy in the source material, but since that isn't likely to happen any time soon (I'd make 'Batman Begins' a full exception if they'd bother to focus on the Batman in a serious fashion and didn't intend on putting Rachel Dawes in the sequel). I'd accept animated, if it was a full-length feature (and I'm talking two hours at least, not 90 minutes) and written and animated well.

 

[Herr Logan]

Oh, c'mon, you know I would never sell out... not even to promote X3: The Last Stand, starring Oscar winner Halle Berry and Sir Ian McKellan! Join the evolution, May 26!

You're baiting me, aren't you? You want me to say it, don't you? Don't you??


Okay, here it is: I was the one who received that T-shirt and those bumper stickers and those buttons! Me!! I even went to work and asked if I could put them somewhere people could take 'em off my hands, half-jokingly, and because the whole "Vote Kelly" motif didn't actually say anything about the X-Men, one of my managers, thinking it was a real person, asked me "Is he a Democrat or a Republican?" Zev, do not comment on the latter half of that sentence. Don't even think about it.

You don't have to say anything... I've already been hanging my head in shame for five years over this. I've punished myself enough.

 

[Zev]

There, there... now the healing can begin.

 

[Herr Logan]

There, there... now the healing can begin.

As long as healing involves eating, I'm there.

 

[Cullen]

You're baiting me, aren't you? You want me to say it, don't you? Don't you??


Okay, here it is: I was the one who received that T-shirt and those bumper stickers and those buttons! Me!! I even went to work and asked if I could put them somewhere people could take 'em off my hands, half-jokingly, and because the whole "Vote Kelly" motif didn't actually say anything about the X-Men, one of my managers, thinking it was a real person, asked me "Is he a Democrat or a Republican?" Zev, do not comment on the latter half of that sentence. Don't even think about it.

You don't have to say anything... I've already been hanging my head in shame for five years over this. I've punished myself enough.

This is a very sad story. It is. I'm not snickering. No. Not snickering at all. Must be someone else.

Yep.

Must be.

To be honest, I wish I had that sort of passion at any point in my life. I'll get excited about this movie or that show, but never to the point of handing out stuff. Closest thing I've come to that is raving about this great new author coming to my favorite comic. Told everyone I knew that JMS created one of the greatest Sci Fi series and how he'd write some killer Spider-man stories.

Between you and me, I think I might, might mind you, commited the worse sin.

Of course, no one I spoke to actually picked up a Spider-man comic, so that might not be entirely the same...

 

[Cullen]

Dear sweet God, when did I break a thousand posts? Should I celibrate or weep softly over a wasted life?

Heh heh. Like I'm not going to be doing the latter anyways...

 

[Herr Logan]

Dear sweet God, when did I break a thousand posts? Should I celibrate or weep softly over a wasted life?

Heh heh. Like I'm not going to be doing the latter anyways...

You've broken a thousand! Congrats!

Heh heh heh... your weeping always amuses me. I'd send you a box of tissues as a 1k-Post present if I knew where you lived. I'd also be able to do something about it the next time you infuriated me, if I knew where you lived.