The Flash Season 6, Episode 9: "Crisis on Infinite Earths, Part 3" (MAJOR SPOILERS)

[Dark Raven]

I never bought Brandon Routh as Reeve's Supes and never will. That was one of my problems with SR to begin with. Both him and Bosworth completely failed to capture the essence of their predecessors, which wouldn't be an issue if they weren't supposed to be those versions. The only way I can like him as Supes is if I think of him as a different incarnation, because I like Brandon, but he ain't Christopher Reeve. Not by a long shot. And when I try to see him as such, his performance goes from "likable" to "sad imitation." I don't even care for the Donner films, but Reeve was irreplaceable, which is why SR's biggest mistake was trying to sell me on Singer's world being that one, and Brandon being THAT Supes, because neither the world as Singer designed it, nor Brandon's performance, captured that at all for me.

So when you say "they killed Reeve's Supes," what I hear is, "they killed the pale imitation of Reeve's Supes," which actually makes me feel better about the whole thing, because that imitation never should've happened, lol. Part of the reason I was happy when they announced Brandon would be playing KC Superman was because my first thought was, "finally he gets to play a version of Supes that isn't a Reeve knock-off." So needless to say, it felt like a bit of a downgrade to me.

I agree on everything you said here.

I see Routh as an alternate earth version of Donner's Superman, while the true Reeve Superman existed elsewhere and went up to Quest for Peace. Routh's Superman diverged after Superman 2.

But maybe Superman 3 could've been a good splitting off point when Superman split into 2. Maybe that also split into a separate timeline and reality.

 

[vantheman77]

Here is something from reddit - all the Supermen throughout the Multiverse:

Earth-F - Fleischer Superman and Lois Lane

Earth-19 - Titans show. Superman with his clone Superboy

Earth-38 - Tyler Hoechlin Superman, who has a child with Lois Lane named Jon Kent.

Earth-75 - Killed by Lex Luthor during COIE

Earth-96 - Brandon Routh's KC Superman. Married to Lois Lane, who was killed by the Joker. Had
a son named Jason.

Earth-99 - Killed by older exo-skeletal Bruce Wayne

Earth-167 - Tom Welling's Clark Kent. Married to Lois Lane and gave up his powers to raise their
2 daughters.

Earth-N52 - New 52 Superman and the Justice League

I think Lex said he killed 10 Supermen by the time he got to KC Superman.

 

[Herolee10]

Here is something from reddit - all the Supermen throughout the Multiverse:

Earth-19 - Titans show. Superman with his clone Superboy

Earth-38 - Tyler Hoechlin Superman, who has a child with Lois Lane named Jon Kent.

Earth-75 - Killed by Lex Luthor during COIE

Earth-96 - Brandon Routh's KC Superman. Married to Lois Lane, who was killed by the Joker. Had
a son named Jason.

Earth-99 - Killed by older exo-skeletal Bruce Wayne

Earth-197 - Tom Welling's Clark Kent. Married to Lois Lane and gave up his powers to raise their
2 daughters.

I think Lex said he killed 10 Supermen by the time he got to KC Superman.

A part of me is still hoping that they will undo some of this damage by the time the crossover concludes. I mean both KC Superman and SV Clark are dead right now.

Then again, I cannot believe that BR would be okay with his Superman role ending on such an incomplete note...again.

 

[Dark Raven]

Here is something from reddit - all the Supermen throughout the Multiverse:

Earth-19 - Titans show. Superman with his clone Superboy

Earth-38 - Tyler Hoechlin Superman, who has a child with Lois Lane named Jon Kent.

Earth-75 - Killed by Lex Luthor during COIE

Earth-96 - Brandon Routh's KC Superman. Married to Lois Lane, who was killed by the Joker. Had
a son named Jason.

Earth-99 - Killed by older exo-skeletal Bruce Wayne

Earth-197 - Tom Welling's Clark Kent. Married to Lois Lane and gave up his powers to raise their
2 daughters.

I think Lex said he killed 10 Supermen by the time he got to KC Superman.

I guess MOS would be Earth-13, Lois and Clark would be Earth-93, the George Reeves Adventures of Superman would be Earth-52, and Kirk Alyn's Superman would be Earth-48.

 

[dhandler01]

KC Superman will be back...

The show has a way out...they gave it to us on Lian Yu. Oliver's new status quo will be what brings back any character they want to. They arent even hiding it...because the alternative is that the entire Multiverse is dead

My uneducated guess...the heroes will fight at the dawn of time and The Spectre (along with Harbinger perhaps) will bring back KC Superman and anyone else they feel should be there. (perhaps more cameos) Then because of the battle at the dawn of time the Earths of the heroes there will be saved. Oliver will give some throwaway line about "saving as many as they could" without any specifics so it becomes a Schrödinger's cat situation where we never quite know who lived or who died so the Earths can exist if you want them to or not.

Now what I would prefer (and this likely wont happen at all it is just my perfect outcome) is that OllieSpectre (as the Spirit of Vengeance) protected all of the heroes of the Multiverse and joins the fight at the Dawn of Time. Ollie will hold off the Antimonitor long enough for the dead heroes to make their return and win the final battle. All of the cameos (including The Red/Blue Blur) show up and fight lead by KC Superman. They win, but the death of the Antimonitor causes a new Big Bang and all of history is re-written. Ollie is able to protect the heroes of the main Arrowverse Earths and after a wave of energy hits they all end up on Post Crisis Earth 1. History is re-written but the heroes still remember. (and some are missing) They are confused and OllieSpectre returns for the needed exposition drop. The Future Kids are still around as well even though their future is now gone (which becomes the basis of their show) Ollie then allows certain heroes whose planets didnt make it into New Earth 1 to proceed to the Paradise dimension. (I would choose KC Superman and the Smallville Kents for the parallels to the comic) For the most part origins are unchanged now the main Earths all exist as one. OllieSpectre implies that some other parallel worlds may still exist but the Multiverse as they knew it before is gone. OllieSpectre then leaves.

Again I dont think that happens because it would be a logistical nightmare but I would geek out hardcore if something like that (better than I plotted it obviously since I am just some shlub on a message board) happened. Beyond that though I think it is safe to assume right now none of the deaths are permanent until the end of the series outside of Barry-90.

 

[vantheman77]

We need Supermen fighting together.

 

[Dark Raven]

A part of me is still hoping that they will undo some of this damage by the time the crossover concludes. I mean both KC Superman and SV Clark are dead right now.

Then again, I cannot believe that BR would be okay with his Superman role ending on such an incomplete note...again.

They could have Brandon Routh's Superman permanently hovering outside of Earth-38 Lois and Clark's window, stalking them like he did with Lois in Superman Returns.

 

[Prison Mike]

Here is something from reddit - all the Supermen throughout the Multiverse:

Earth-F - Fleischer Superman and Lois Lane

Earth-19 - Titans show. Superman with his clone Superboy

Earth-38 - Tyler Hoechlin Superman, who has a child with Lois Lane named Jon Kent.

Earth-75 - Killed by Lex Luthor during COIE

Earth-96 - Brandon Routh's KC Superman. Married to Lois Lane, who was killed by the Joker. Had
a son named Jason.

Earth-99 - Killed by older exo-skeletal Bruce Wayne

Earth-197 - Tom Welling's Clark Kent. Married to Lois Lane and gave up his powers to raise their
2 daughters.

Earth-N52 - New 52 Superman and the Justice League

I think Lex said he killed 10 Supermen by the time he got to KC Superman.

Smallville is actually Earth-167

 

[Herolee10]

I never bought Brandon Routh as Reeve's Supes and never will. That was one of my problems with SR to begin with. Both him and Bosworth completely failed to capture the essence of their predecessors, which wouldn't be an issue if they weren't supposed to be those versions. The only way I can like him as Supes is if I think of him as a different incarnation, because I like Brandon, but he ain't Christopher Reeve. Not by a long shot. And when I try to see him as such, his performance goes from "likable" to "sad imitation." I don't even care for the Donner films, but Reeve was irreplaceable, which is why SR's biggest mistake was trying to sell me on Singer's world being that one, and Brandon being THAT Supes, because neither the world as Singer designed it, nor Brandon's performance, captured that at all for me.

So when you say "they killed Reeve's Supes," what I hear is, "they killed the pale imitation of Reeve's Supes," which actually makes me feel better about the whole thing, because that imitation never should've happened, lol. Part of the reason I was happy when they announced Brandon would be playing KC Superman was because my first thought was, "finally he gets to play a version of Supes that isn't a Reeve knock-off." So needless to say, when Guggenheim later stated it was indeed the same version, it felt like a bit of a downgrade to me.

But given the fact that the events of S:TM and SII (to a lesser extent) are considered canon for SR's continuity, doesn't that make Reeve's and Routh's versions technically one in the same? I mean both portrayals used Marlon Brando as their Jor-el's as well.

 

[vantheman77]

I never bought Brandon Routh as Reeve's Supes and never will. That was one of my problems with SR to begin with. Both him and Bosworth completely failed to capture the essence of their predecessors, which wouldn't be an issue if they weren't supposed to be those versions. The only way I can like him as Supes is if I think of him as a different incarnation, because I like Brandon, but he ain't Christopher Reeve. Not by a long shot. And when I try to see him as such, his performance goes from "likable" to "sad imitation." I don't even care for the Donner films, but Reeve was irreplaceable, which is why SR's biggest mistake was trying to sell me on Singer's world being that one, and Brandon being THAT Supes, because neither the world as Singer designed it, nor Brandon's performance, captured that at all for me.

So when you say "they killed Reeve's Supes," what I hear is, "they killed the pale imitation of Reeve's Supes," which actually makes me feel better about the whole thing, because that imitation never should've happened, lol. Part of the reason I was happy when they announced Brandon would be playing KC Superman was because my first thought was, "finally he gets to play a version of Supes that isn't a Reeve knock-off." So needless to say, when Guggenheim later stated it was indeed the same version, it felt like a bit of a downgrade to me.

I also thought he'd be the KC Superman or Kevin Conroy being the KC Bruce Wayne or Batman Beyond Bruce Wayne. In recent interviews, Routh wasn't interested in playing another version of Superman.

Maybe they can have Bruce Campbell play KC Superman down the line for a KC movie for DCU?!

 

[flickchick85]

But given the fact that the events of S:TM and SII (to a lesser extent) are considered canon for SR's continuity, doesn't that make Reeve's and Routh's versions technically one in the same? I mean both portrayals used Marlon Brando as their Jor-el's as well.

Not to me, because I can’t see them as the same. Just can’t. When I try, Brandon just comes across as a lesser knock-off. But yes, I realize the intent was for them to be the same. But that attempt has simply never worked for me, continuity-wise (given the murkier connection to Reeve’s later sequels) or otherwise.

 

[Thome216]

I liked Superman Returns. Though, I think Routh wasn't given enough material to work with that wasn't a direct lift from the Superman I and II, but I thought it was a nice stepping off point to renew the franchise, that unfortunately never went any further.

 

[Herolee10]

 

[Herolee10]

KC Superman will be back...

Until a new BTS photo comes out featuring Brandon Routh's KC Superman in a scene that doesn't take place on the Waverider, Daily Planet, or the Dawn of Time then I think it'safe to bet that he's gone.

Plus, he was killed by the Book of Destiny. If you dig deeper into it, Lex pretty much wrote KC Superman out of existence as though he was never born.

 

[Dr.]

Not to me, because I can’t see them as the same. Just can’t. When I try, Brandon just comes across as a lesser knock-off. But yes, I realize the intent was for them to be the same. But that attempt has simply never worked for me, continuity-wise (given the murkier connection to Reeve’s later sequels) or otherwise.

The notion of a “vague sequel” means that the canonicity of STM/SII with respect to SR is also vague. IOW, it’s subjective and optional. Indeed, at a narrative level, SR works better if interpreted as a standalone. Also, there seems to be no way that the “backstory” of SR can make sense if the events of SIII and SIV - part of the “Christopher Reeve canon” - occurred. But by what standard of “internal logic” does one accept the first two movies of the Reeve canon and reject the last two? This would appear to be rather arbitrary. And if this exclusion is allowed, you can also arbitrarily ignore STM and SII as literal prequels.

 

[dhandler01]

You were supposed to ignore 3 and 4. That was the narrative we were given at the time. S:TM and S:II happened but the rest we were to ignore. Sort of like what Halloween did (twice!) only SR didnt do a good enough job dealing with it.

At the time I didnt mind...but in hindsight it was an awful decision.

 

[Milk Tray Guy]

You were supposed to ignore 3 and 4. That was the narrative we were given at the time. S:TM and S:II happened but the rest we were to ignore. Sort of like what Halloween did (twice!) only SR didnt do a good enough job dealing with it.

Yep, Halloween came to my mind too! (I'm rewatching them atm)

 

[Lencho01]

Jefferson and Diggle with the head nod, lol

Two black guys in a sea of white

 

[Herolee10]

We need Supermen fighting together.

Yeah, it's pretty baffling as to why we never got a scene featuring Tyler's and Brandon's versions working alongside each other. I would have gladly preferred a scene featuring them trying to save another dying Earth over seeing another bonding scene between Kara and Kate.

Also, in hindsight, I'm actually surprised that they chose to spend the money that they did in creating the KC Superman costume. Seeing as how he was only going to appear for two episodes (a few scenes really), they should have invested some of that money in better effects instead.

 

[vantheman77]

Yeah, it's pretty baffling as to why we never got a scene featuring Tyler's and Brandon's versions working alongside each other. I would have gladly preferred a scene featuring them trying to save another dying Earth over seeing another bonding scene between Kara and Kate.

Also, in hindsight, I'm actually surprised that they chose to spend the money that they did in creating the KC Superman costume. Seeing as how he was only going to appear for two episodes (a few scenes really), they should have invested some of that money in better effects instead.

Agree on that one. I want to see their frustrations when trying to save worlds from the antimatter wave.

 

[Flash525]

Until a new BTS photo comes out featuring Brandon Routh's KC Superman in a scene that doesn't take place on the Waverider, Daily Planet, or the Dawn of Time then I think it'safe to bet that he's gone.

Plus, he was killed by the Book of Destiny. If you dig deeper into it, Lex pretty much wrote KC Superman out of existence as though he was never born.

Well that’s speculation at best. Lex used the book to save his skin and replace KC Superman with himself. There’s literally nothing to imply that he used the book to actually kill him. Nothing.

 

[Dr.]

You were supposed to ignore 3 and 4. That was the narrative we were given at the time. S:TM and S:II happened but the rest we were to ignore.

It’s true that Superman Returns ignores SIII and SIV. And to the extent that SR appears to be part of the Crisis continuity (because KC Supes is also an older version of SR Supes?), Crisis should likewise ignore SIII and SIV.

Except… Crisis, itself, makes a direct allusion to “Lucy Warfield” - a character from SIV. Therefore, do we conclude that SIV (at least) is within the Crisis continuity? On the other hand, SR - a crucial link in the chain - doesn’t make sense if the events of SIV occurred. I’m so confused!

Of course, maybe - sometimes - an Easter egg is just an Easter egg.

 

[dhandler01]

That would be my guess. Most people wouldnt even notice it so it is there for the 5 people who would to go "HOLY COW SUPERMAN 4!!".

I mean we are dealing with lots of dopplegangers...it could be an alternate version of Lucy

 

[famicommander]

Superman Returns never made sense as a sequel to Superman II to begin with.

Superman II is set in 1979 and Lois is already clearly in her 30s. Superman Returns is set in 2006 according to a newspaper headline, and she appears to be in her mid 20s at the latest. Martha Kent would have to be 100 years old or more; she was already clearly pretty old when Clark landed on Earth in the freaking late 1940s.

Not to mention Lois remembers events that Clark roofie-kissed away in Superman II, but doesn't remember Clark is Superman.

They went out of their way to reference events from Superman I, III, IV, and Returns because they just don't care that the timeline makes no sense. As far as the Arrowverse is concerned, they're all Earth-96.

Just like how Earth-89 is now canon because of the cameo. But in the cameo, Knox is reading a newspaper that says Batman captured the Joker, but we all saw the Joker die at the end of Batman 1989.

 

[Random490]

I'm surprised no one has brought this up. While I'm not sure how the Vanishing Point was used before, when they ended up there I immediately thought of when Bruce was lost in Time, the last time period he visited before returning to the present. It would be pretty awesome if he showed up to give Kate a message about how to bring him back.