The Dark Knight Rises Should Batman be "the world's greatest detective"?

[Nave 'Torment']

Yeah, TDK is filled with Bruce finally being that 'great detective' we know him to be: the tagged cash, bullet-print, etc. But what goes unnoticed is that Bruce was a detective from way back in Begins. The Scarecrow subplot being a primary example. Of course, I have yet to see a complete detective Batman story and I really hope the next one is something like that. A real mystery. I hope it's Hush because I loved all of Loeb's Bat-mysteries.

 

[Polux]

Yeah, TDK is filled with Bruce finally being that 'great detective' we know him to be: the tagged cash, bullet-print, etc. But what goes unnoticed is that Bruce was a detective from way back in Begins. The Scarecrow subplot being a primary example. Of course, I have yet to see a complete detective Batman story and I really hope the next one is something like that. A real mystery. I hope it's Hush because I loved all of Loeb's Bat-mysteries.

QFT!!!

Polux

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Thanks

 

[TheWallCrawler]

they should really push the greatest detective stuff further with this movie

 

[GothamAlleys]

Yeah, TDK is filled with Bruce finally being that 'great detective' we know him to be: the tagged cash, bullet-print, etc.

He just put a brick into a machine. Its like finding a DVD and figuring out that you have a DVD player

But what goes unnoticed is that Bruce was a detective from way back in Begins.

Well then its lucky he appeared this way because I have quotes in which Jonah and Chris say they didnt touch upon on him being detective because it wouldve been too much.

My personal take is that it make the character more real and easier to be identified with - if hes like perfect in everything that doesnt make him much real. If he still has emotional problems and needs help of other specialist in certain areas, that makes him more real, more human

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Well then its lucky he appeared this way because I have quotes in which Jonah and Chris say they didnt touch upon on him being detective because it wouldve been too much.

Well, maybe you should post up the quotes, because he did do detective work in BB, he sat and researched all the cops, judges and folk from the DA's office, which led him to Gordon, which led him to the docks, and Flass, who he got the info from which led him to the narrows and the Scarecrow. After he was defeated by SC, he followed Rachel to AA, listened in on the conversation, which then led him to interrogate SC, who told him Ras Al Ghul was coming.
Detective work is sometiems as basic as that, follow leads, get the facts, interrogate suspects...he may not have been portrayed as the world's greatest there, but it was still detective work.
I am guessing Nolan and co said something along the lines of not focusing on him as being a detective, along the lines of a Sherlock holmes movie(an old one).

My personal take is that it make the character more real and easier to be identified with - if hes like perfect in everything that doesnt make him much real. If he still has emotional problems and needs help of other specialist in certain areas, that makes him more real, more human

The thing is, he needs to be v smart in order to survive on the streets, he has to think on his feet in dangerous situations all the time, you can put on the muscle and learn all the karate movies in the world, but if you are not smart enough, you will make the wrong move and it will all be over in a gunflash/jailcell.
So, it stands to reason that this same ability to weigh up the situation, on the streets, would also apply to weighing up the facts of the matter when it came to long term detective work, it is the same principles at work, instincts about people, noticing patterns and methods of operation, gut instinct, connecting the dots...and so on.
You can't have a Batman who is smart on the streets, but not as smart when playing Cluedo, if he can survive on the streets for years and years as a vigilante on his own, then those instincts will automatically be there for him when he sits down to the facts of a case.
Yeah, he should be the world's greatest detective, damn right, lol, for that reason, it's the same skillset he uses on the streets.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Well, maybe you should post up the quotes,

Ill save them for the article im writing

because he did do detective work in BB, he sat and researched all the cops, judges and folk from the DA's office, which led him to Gordon,

He tried to figure out who to trust and at the end trusted only Gordon and Rachel based on his personal feelings, not research. He didnt know which cops were corrupted, he knew about flass because he heard him in Falcones office and knew that Flass has info on the shipment from Gordon. Overhearing a conversation is not a deductive detective work

Detective work is sometiems as basic as that, follow leads, get the facts, interrogate suspects...he may not have been portrayed as the world's greatest there, but it was still detective work.

Of course, but a detective work that everyone could do. Following someone and listening to otehrs' conversation can be done by anyone and to an extent it is a detective work, but not detective skills

And again, Nolans confirmed that hes not any big detective. And I fail to see how someone can see it as a put down. Again, it makes the character more real

Real and professional detetcive skills is connecting the dots, coming up with solutions on your own based on the evidence you have or logical thinking alone. Example from Forever:Two Face's duality, second anniversary of his capture and the location and existence of second bank in Gotham - that is a quality, classic detective work - figuring out that TF will try to escape and on which day and which place he will target based on those facts and your special detective intellect to think of those facts and connecting the dots. A detective work much, much more impressive than spying on someone hearing "Scarecrow's gonna be at the docs" and saying "oh! I figured out Scarecrow is gonna be at the docs!" or placing a bullet in a computer that identifies suspects for you, sorts out the possibilities and gives you the addresses. Its about having an intellect that few have, not about anybody being able to do that with "search engine"

The thing is, he needs to be v smart in order to survive on the streets, he has to think on his feet in dangerous situations all the time, you can put on the muscle and learn all the karate movies in the world, but if you are not smart enough, you will make the wrong move and it will all be over in a gunflash/jailcell.

No ones saying hes not extremely smart, but if hes not a super detective that doesnt mean hes not intelligent. People forget that detective skills arent something youre born with but something you actually study, a learned skill. Batman spent a lot of his youth in the comics studying with the best detective in the world solving the biggest criminal mystery. Bale did not because - it wouldve been too much and the character was more complex than that, more real than just suddenly figuring out that he wants to be a crime fighter in mask and then studying around the world all his life. Its great for the comic books and older movies, but not for a real life character. Nolan went deeper than that with a different route

 

[Grayson]

I don't see how it's hard for people to realize that this trilogy is about the road to reaching his apex, and truly becoming The Batman.
That's like saying Superman hasn't earned his place as one of the DC Universe's strongest beings based off of Smallville.

 

[Gianakin_]

He's no super detective, or the world's smartest one- and that's how I like it.

 

[GothamAlleys]

He's no super detective, or the world's smartest one- and that's how I like it.

Right and it works very well in Nolan's world because like I said it makes him more real. The comic book version has too many skills for a real life portrayal. Not only would it make him less real but also less accesible and too far removed from the regular us

 

[Gianakin_]

Right and it works very well in Nolan's world because like I said it makes him more real. The comic book version has too many skills for a real life portrayal. Not only would it make him less real but also less accesible and too far removed from the regular us

I mean, I love the angle that he can hold the entire world and superheroes in the palm of his hand, but what I don't like is the very "child playing with his toys" approach, that he built everything by himself, relies on nobody etc etc. I used to do this with all the heroes I created while playing with my action figures when I was 5.

One of the reasons I love the new Batfilms is that he's surrounded by people who co-operate with and assist him. It's a great version/alternative of the Bat-family.

 

[Dark Raven]

Maybe TDKR needs to take a page from RDJ's Sherlock Holmes movie, and actually solve crimes, puzzles and riddles. I would've liked to have had the Riddler (as a master criminal in the vein of Sev7n or something similar) where Batman needs to use his intellect and detective skills to solve something for once. Even having Hugo Strange would've seemed more like Professor Moriarty. I don't know that Bane (even if he is meant to be cleverer than portrayed in B&R) would fit this image. Somehow the image of Hugo Strange or Riddler (with a minimal mask) looks more cunning than a character like Bane in a full head mask.

 

[Gianakin_]

The thing is, the amount of detective work in BB and especially TDKR is very good for a blockbuster summer movie, let's not forget what we're looking at here. He deducted identities in TDKR. Sure, Riddler would've been ideal for him to show his skills more, but we're looking for a universal image of Batman here, not only a detective movie.

 

[RustyCage]

Maybe TDKR needs to take a page from RDJ's Sherlock Holmes movie, and actually solve crimes, puzzles and riddles. I would've liked to have had the Riddler (as a master criminal in the vein of Sev7n or something similar) where Batman needs to use his intellect and detective skills to solve something for once. Even having Hugo Strange would've seemed more like Professor Moriarty. I don't know that Bane (even if he is meant to be cleverer than portrayed in B&R) would fit this image. Somehow the image of Hugo Strange or Riddler (with a minimal mask) looks more cunning than a character like Bane in a full head mask.

There's always next time. That gives me something to smile and look forward to instead of pout about.

... we're looking for a universal image of Batman here, not only a detective movie.

And this is a healthy attitude.

 

[Iceman]

It's a very important part of his abilities but as long as they touch on it in some way in each of the films (as they have an extent) I'll be happy. Like others have said there isn't a whole lot of time unlike with comics to establish exactly how skilled he is in this area (without sacrificing other aspects), but showing how noone else was even close to figuring things out whenever Batman draws his complex conclusions would be a quick way of achieving the level I'm looking for.

 

[RustyCage]

He just put a brick into a machine. Its like finding a DVD and figuring out that you have a DVD player

That's a gross disservice to what actually happened.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Ill save them for the article im writing

If they are in the public domain already, i don't know why you are safeguarding them for an exclusive article, if that's what you mean.

and yeah, you make good points about his detective work in Begins being more gruntwork, rather than anything special, but, y'know, as we know know, it's still technically detective work, more like the kind of work real detectives on the police force do, rather than the romantiscised ones of fiction, although of course, there are inspired detectives in real life too of course. who have to be inspired in certain cases.

No ones saying hes not extremely smart, but if hes not a super detective that doesnt mean hes not intelligent. People forget that detective skills arent something youre born with but something you actually study, a learned skill. Batman spent a lot of his youth in the comics studying with the best detective in the world solving the biggest criminal mystery. Bale did not because - it wouldve been too much and the character was more complex than that, more real than just suddenly figuring out that he wants to be a crime fighter in mask and then studying around the world all his life. Its great for the comic books and older movies, but not for a real life character. Nolan went deeper than that with a different route

Ok, yes detective skills can be taught, but I disagree, they can come out of people naturally without the type of educational training you are talking about. We use detective work in our everyday life, say for example, in a work place, to see who, if anyone, is plotting against you when a promotion is up, our natural instincts can focus on trying to figure out who people really are, beyond what they present themselves as, our natural instincts for the the truth picking up on little giveaways...that is all detective work, normal untrained people use these types of skills everyday. I hate this expression, but you get those skills from studying at the university of life, lol, it's true.
Batman's natural smarts, which allow him to survive moment to moment in the most dangerous situations, every night , would place him near the top of the heap, if not at the top with the best, when it came to applying these natural instincts to figuring people out, and what they are about to do next, and what they have done already, which is what detective work is all about.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

The thing is, the amount of detective work in BB and especially TDKR is very good for a blockbuster summer movie, let's not forget what we're looking at here. He deducted identities in TDKR. Sure, Riddler would've been ideal for him to show his skills more, but we're looking for a universal image of Batman here, not only a detective movie.

Yeah, that is exactly it, you are probably never going to come away from a Batman movie thinking 'that guy ios the world's greatest detective', you can't focus on his abilities for that length of time without it shortchnaging the other aspects, which are more cinematic, the action, the images...
You are only going to get that from a regular live action tv series, having the odd episode devoted mostly to detective work, like the comics do every once in a while, some action, but lots of detective work and cool thinking on BM's part. and it is always good for the 'world's greatest' rep if the writer can come up with a way to show how Batman's thinking was totally unique from the others working on the case, without making the other detectives incompetants.
There is a good one called 'Dead Letter Office' where BM works with a private detective, he goes on a hunch, and gets lucky, but it's a good hunch, and one of the great BM detective stories, issue 432 or 433, i lost that issue.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

The mistake people constantly make is mixing up detective work with deduction.

When they say "Batman didn't do any detective work" they actually mean he didn't magically deduce a killer's identity using only a piece of copper wire, a stain on a carpet, and his enormous brain. Batman does that often, but that's not just detective work. That's Holmesian deduction, and there's a difference.

Like you said, it's gruntwork on display in these movies, but it's still detective work. Recon, interrogation, sifting through files and information, computer research, ballistics, fingerprints - Batman does all of this, and it's all classic detective work.

If you want to say that's not enough for you, or it's not enough to be dubbed "the world's greatest," that's fine. But please, make the distinction for clarity's sake.

 

[RustyCage]

Well said, Pete. A point missed far too often.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

The mistake people constantly make is mixing up detective work with deduction.

When they say "Batman didn't do any detective work" they actually mean he didn't magically deduce a killer's identity using only a piece of copper wire, a stain on a carpet, and his enormous brain. Batman does that often, but that's not just detective work. That's Holmesian deduction, and there's a difference.

Like you said, it's gruntwork on display in these movies, but it's still detective work. Recon, interrogation, sifting through files and information, computer research, ballistics, fingerprints - Batman does all of this, and it's all classic detective work.

If you want to say that's not enough for you, or it's not enough to be dubbed "the world's greatest," that's fine. But please, make the distinction for clarity's sake.

The problem with grunt work is it doesn't show a brillaint detective mind which is needed to justify Batman's reputation. This reputation seperates Batman from most crime fighters and superheroes and puts him in a elusive category of the most formidable fictional minds. Anything less cheats the fans and the character.

 

[PreK]

A far easier distinction is to simply say Bale's Bruce Wayne is not of a brilliant mind, as his comic book counterpart. He may be smart and determined, but reaching the level of brilliance is entirely new territory. This isn't just relegated to the skills of deduction, but also general capacity of knowledge on any given topic.

 

[RustyCage]

I don't see why you guys are so bent toward thinking Bale's Wayne isn't intelligent. He continually surprises his peers with his knowledge and ideas, particularly in The Dark Knight - as early as when he's talking with Fox about Lau.