The Dark Knight Rises Should Batman be "the world's greatest detective"?

[KalMart]

I'm just saying, it couldn't hurt to delve into it a bit more. I'm not convinced it's somehow detrimental in any way shape or form, since it's -- well, part of the character.

Well, i don't really feel it WAS hurt by NOT delving into it more than they did. But if one were really expecting more than that...I could kinda' see how it felt that way.

I'm actually not referring to anything in particular. Just speaking concept-wise; if you can't universally apply an aspect of a character's function, evidently it isn't so essential.

It was essential enough to include the amount that they did...which in any movie is/should be a sign of its importance.

It doesn't need to get into such a limited subsection of the population. You just need a bar of comparison to gauge performance.

In a room full of 7 footers, the word 'tall' doesn't exist.

He seemed considerably more capable in investigative skills than anyone else in the movie. Granted, you didn't really see anyone else dusting for prints or comparing shatter patterns...but mostly because they were too busy trying to keep from getting killed, or keeping others from getting killed, etc..

Basically, I understand how you feel, but I still feel it's more subjective than concrete in this case.

 

[ALP]

You may have missed the point.

 

[The Caped Knight]

The "damn he's good" reputation of Batman is one of the reasons the character is so popular.

Him doing crime fighting things isn't enough. He needs to be among the best in order to deserve his top place among legendary superheroes.

Word

 

[KalMart]

Who, among movie superheroes these days, has proven to be 'better'?

 

[hatebox]

It's a wrong mindset to get into for this series of Bat films anyway, because in Nolan's universe there are no other superheroes. At least, there's no reason to believe there are.

 

[batman11]

It's a wrong mindset to get into anyway, because in Nolan's universe there are no other superheroes. At least, there's no reason to believe there are.

Thus, by process of elimination (i.e. Batman is the only one), Batman is the smartest superhero. Incidentally, this statement would also be true, even if he was dumb as a doornail. t: (Just a joke...don't kill me...)

 

[ALP]

Who, among movie superheroes these days, has proven to be 'better'?

Nazi Sam Jackson

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

Well, he certainly is depicted as a man unrivaled in his effectiveness (well, aside form Dent maybe). That's why the city has come to rely on him so heavily, because he can do what no one else can.

 

[RustyCage]

I never saw Riddler as a deadly enough adversary to close out the trilogy without revamping the character drastically as a John Doe type killer, which is one of the worst ideas ever.

I don't see why that's necessary, especially the killer part.

Could be as simple as a Moriarty VS Holmes thing, Batman style. All Nolan would have to do is up Riddler's scale.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

I don't see why that's necessary, especially the killer part.

Could be as simple as a Moriarty VS Holmes thing, Batman style. All Nolan would have to do is up Riddler's scale.

Could you be more specific? How do you scale it up? He's still just a thief. Even a brilliant thief is a major step down from bloodthirsty terrorists like Joker and Ra's.

 

[RustyCage]

Could you be more specific? How do you scale it up? He's still just a thief. Even a brilliant thief is a major step down from bloodthirsty terrorists like Joker and Ra's.

Again, Moriarty. It's not just about thievery, it's about the challenge. Batman is the ideal test, and he's fascinated by him. If you recall Riddler's bigger moments, they tend to identify his obsession with Batman's intellect and his overall disregard for mere loot, his true prize being outwitting and challenging people - again, especially Batman. He relishes the dilemma, the drama of whether or not they'll figure out the puzzle at hand. This angle was talked about very often when the forum was buzzing about wanting him in the next film, so I'm surprised you're not aware of it.

But anyway, saying he's 'just a thief' is quite off the mark.

 

[ALP]

Could you be more specific? How do you scale it up? He's still just a thief. Even a brilliant thief is a major step down from bloodthirsty terrorists like Joker and Ra's.

If anything Riddles should be the similar type.

Imagine him holding a large number of people hostage, and they will all be gassed or something like that unless Batman can solve his riddles which lead to their location. It also ups the ante because if the people aren't saved in time and die, Batman will feel like it's his fault as opposed to Joker's ferry scheme which had absolutely nothing to do with Batman. Whereas Riddler literally puts the power into Batman's hands.

Not being precise, just an example. But between BB and TDK, we've now had people gassed and held hostage.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

Again, Moriarty. It's not just about thievery, it's about the challenge. Batman is the ideal test, and he's fascinated by him. If you recall Riddler's bigger moments, they tend to identify his obsession with Batman's intellect and his overall disregard for mere loot, his true prize being outwitting and challenging people - again, especially Batman. He relishes the dilemma, the drama of whether or not they'll figure out the puzzle at hand. This angle was talked about very often when the forum was buzzing about wanting him in the next film, so I'm surprised you're not aware of it.

But anyway, saying he's 'just a thief' is quite off the mark.

I'm well aware of the Riddler's MO, and I've always loved the dynamic between him and Batman.

I get Riddler's motivation. I get the challenge. But what I don't get, and what you still haven't illustrated to me, is where is the threat? Challenge does not equal threat. What is at stake if Batman loses? In the comics, it's usually a contest over some sort of material possession, like a rare artifact, or at best some sort of death trap that involves Batman and Batman alone. That, to me, is not a worthy followup to the city-wide threats of the previous films.

 

[RustyCage]

I'm well aware of the Riddler's MO, and I've always loved the dynamic between him and Batman.

I get Riddler's motivation. I get the challenge. But what I don't get, and what you still haven't illustrated to me, is where is the threat? Challenge does not equal threat. What is at stake if Batman loses? In the comics, it's usually a contest over some sort of material possession, like a rare artifact, or at best some sort of death trap that involves Batman and Batman alone. That, to me, is not a worthy followup to the city-wide threats of the previous films.

It could be literally anything and there would even be several of these scenarios, probably growing in threat level and difficulty as the film progresses. Maybe the material possession is the Tumbler blueprints that Reese got his hands on. Or it could start small time with him using the guise of a theft to lure Batman into a puzzle to learn about him before making a more serious move later. A death trap, since you also brought that up, could also involve Catwoman or Gordon, etc, not just Batman like you were saying.

Just keep your mind open about it. Basically, it would have to be plot related. I mean, you're essentially asking me to whip up a Nolan-quality Batscript here in a forum post, I can't really do that. But I do see the potential for them to craft something compelling. He's way more than a thief - even in terms of just his crimes he's committed.

 

[GregComicFan]

Who, among movie superheroes these days, has proven to be 'better'?

Even though Batman is my favorite, and always has been, I think both Iron Man movies have done a better job at making Tony Stark seem like a genius level intellect than either of Nolan's Batman flicks.

In my opinion, Nolan's films have made Bruce seem like a typical Harvard graduate type... someone who is definitely intelligent, scored perfect SAT scores, and was at the top of his class...

Tony Stark has been written to come across as someone who should rewrite the SATs and is too good for Harvard.

So...

yeah I too hope Nolan writes Bruce in such a way that he seems on-par with Stark. He should be.

 

[Gianakin_]

I think Batman's genius is more implied, as opposed to Stark's (always comparing the movies here).

 

[KalMart]

Even though Batman is my favorite, and always has been, I think both Iron Man movies have done a better job at making Tony Stark seem like a genius level intellect than either of Nolan's Batman flicks.

In my opinion, Nolan's films have made Bruce seem like a typical Harvard graduate type... someone who is definitely intelligent, scored perfect SAT scores, and was at the top of his class...

Tony Stark has been written to come across as someone who should rewrite the SATs and is too good for Harvard.

So...

yeah I too hope Nolan writes Bruce in such a way that he seems on-par with Stark. He should be.

Yeah, but Stark is supposed to be a genius designer/inventor/etc. to begin with no? Sort a different skill-set altogether than the investigative/detective side of Batman.

 

[ray243]

Has anyone really discussed how exactly are you going to depict Batman as the world greatest detective? In a movie, you can't simply tell people that he's the greatest detective, you need to show him doing something that would make people agree with the notion.

Does defeating the Riddle makes him the world greatest detective? Does solving the mysteries behind the crime makes him the best detective in the world?

I think one way to depict the dark knight as a superhuman in terms of his deductive abilities is to depict him like Sherlock Holmes in the new BBC series.


Take a look at how Sherlock manage to identify the background of a totally stranger by looking at clues people would not even think of. Watch from the 2 minute mark.

[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbyoPQsFRyM&feature=related[/YT]

 

[RustyCage]

Yeah, I suggested BBC's Sherlock as a reference as well. For that reason among others.

 

[Captain Useless]

As long as he smokes a pipe in TDKR I seriously don't give a ****.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

I remember Babs and Dick once discussing that angle and about the Bruce/Batman persona:

Babs: Well that's debatable, I mean besides, Sherlock Holmes is a character, Bruce Wayne is REAL.

Dick: You sure about that?

 

[RustyCage]

I remember Babs and Dick once discussing that angle and about the Bruce/Batman persona:

Babs: Well that's debatable, I mean besides, Sherlock Holmes is a character, Bruce Wayne is REAL.

Dick: You sure about that?

I love that.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I think what the "greatest detective" people are saying is that we want Batman to have a legendary reputation for detective work that proceeds him.

For this to happen he needs to display detective logic outside of forensic tech.

 

[hatebox]

The problem is that Batman is now a fugitive, he's as outside of the law as one can can get - it's hard to imagine a way in which his detective reputation can precede him when he has the criminal reputations to go with it. The latter is all that the police and Gotham citizens will be concerned about.

TDK depicted, without question, that Batman was a far better investigator than the Gotham police. That's enough for me, to be frank. I want a character-driven action spectacle from a Batman blockbuster, not a mystery thriller, which I think it would have to be to convey how good a detective some want Batman to be depicted as.

 

[RustyCage]

The problem is that Batman is now a fugitive, he's as outside of the law as one can can get - it's hard to imagine a way in which his detective reputation can precede him when he has the criminal reputations to go with it. The latter is all that the police and Gotham citizens will be concerned about.

TDK depicted, without question, that Batman was a far better investigator than the Gotham police. That's enough for me, to be frank. I want a character-driven action spectacle from a Batman blockbuster, not a mystery thriller, which I think it would have to be to convey how good a detective some want Batman to be depicted as.

I'm happy with what we got in TDK too, but I also think we can have both of those things in a Batfilm easily.

For this to happen he needs to display detective logic outside of forensic tech.

I still don't understand why the tech is getting so much credit for an idea he came up with.