The Dark Knight Rises Should Batman be "the world's greatest detective"?

[MessiahDecoy123]

I don't think anyone can be Batman. I'd go even narrower and say any gifted human who has the requisite psychological scarring but the self-discipline to channel it into a productive force could be Batman. There's very few people throughout history who fit that profile and even fewer who channeled that towards a noble outcome.

I don't think Bruce Wayne is an alpha male at all. Alpha males are natural leaders. Bruce Wayne is not, he'd rather hide himself in the social fabric as a narcissistic playboy. He shuns social norms and engages in behavior (as Batman) that is socially unacceptable. In private, he's an introvert only trusting Alfred and a few select others. In public he's a foppish buffoon.

Bruce Wayne has more in common with a serial killer (obsessive loner) than an alpha male (natural leader).

Interesting.

I think Bruce is a natural athlete with genius intellect which would make him more of an alpha male. Even if you define an alpha male by hard work and ambition Bruce qualifies.

I don't think bruce is a mental case. He's a self-actualized alpha male whose concrete goal is to have a one-man war on crime. It's this goal that makes Bruce an obsessive loner, not a broken mind.

 

[namtaB]

Interesting.

I think Bruce is a natural athlete with genius intellect which would make him more of an alpha male. Even if you define an alpha male by hard work and ambition Bruce qualifies.

I don't think bruce is a mental case. He's a self-actualized alpha male whose concrete goal is to have a one-man war on crime. It's this goal that makes Bruce an obsessive loner, not a broken mind.

I agree, his mind is not broken. Its quite the opposite b/c his mental discipline forces him to keep training, exercise self control, etc.

However, I don't think self-actualization is indicative of an alpha male. Bruce Wayne's place in the social fabric is broken b/c of his experience that drives him to do what he does. His behavior as Batman has no place in society. In that respect he has more in common with a serial killer than an alpha male.

Alexander the Great was a leader of men. I don't think his Macedonian army would have intermarried with Persians, trekked the Sahara with Alexander into Northern India, etc. had it not been for Alexander's social skills, particularly his ability to lead.

I just don't see Bruce Wayne embodying those alpha male qualities.

 

[hatebox]

I tend to shy away from the Batman is a psycho reading - I think going too far in that direction negates the basic heroism that makes the character so attractive. But the notion that the tendencies for that mindset lie under the surface is clearly present, and also alluring.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

If you accept that we couldn't see Batman much later than the one hour mark in a massively expensive blockbuster film then I think Begins depicted Bruce's training about as effectively as one could reasonably hope. To simply get rid of Chill and his parents' murder just to make more space for 'different kinds of training' is a bit ludicrous, we have to see why Bruce became so messed up.

Some would say Bruce isn't as perfect as they'd like, others might that say Nolan went out of his way to convey a hero who's not infallible and, thus, relatable.

I think the Joe Chill murder plot detracts from the Batman character.

1) If Bruce is willing to use a gun this entire time why would he need to travel the world to master all forms of crimefighting?

Bruce should hate guns, which would explain why Batman has a strict refusal to touch a gun even though it endagers him as a crime fighter. Batman hates guns since his parents were killed by them. Great explanation for his training and methods.

2) Also Bruce knows his destiny shortly after his parents are killed. This explains his meticulous training with various masters in secret. Having him even consider killing Joe Chill defeats that purpose completely.

Bruce didn't train to be the punisher. He trained to am unarmed vigilante who respected life. Why? Because when his parents were killed he realized murder was wrong. Not after his global quest for training.

 

[Brother Jack]

He's going to be more intelligent and experienced, that is part of his character arc seen through the previous two films. Whether he'll become the world's greatest detective is pretty unlikely, because it doesn't fit tonally and narratively it paints him into a corner. It's hard to create conflict when Batman is so unbelievably good at what he does (Bat-god). He needs to be great, but not flawless. That actually defeats one of Batman's best aspects: his human fallibility.

 

[hatebox]

Bruce didn't train to be the punisher. He trained to am unarmed vigilante who respected life. Why? Because when his parents were killed he realized murder was wrong. Not after his global quest for training.

Well, we're meant to acknowledge that the young Bruce who's about to kill Chill was a hypocritical fool consumed by the need for superficial revenge, and that the training had a profound and positive effect on him.

It'd be impossible to convey that child Bruce decides once and for all not to kill since child Bruce wouldn't have been depicted as being 'for' killing prior to his parents' murder. As a kid there'd be no entry point to see that change in attitude.

I actually get your point, but I don't think it's fundamentally wrong that the film went in the direction it did. The younger, jerk-ier Bruce angle worked for me.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I agree, his mind is not broken. Its quite the opposite b/c his mental discipline forces him to keep training, exercise self control, etc.

However, I don't think self-actualization is indicative of an alpha male. Bruce Wayne's place in the social fabric is broken b/c of his experience that drives him to do what he does. His behavior as Batman has no place in society. In that respect he has more in common with a serial killer than an alpha male.

Alexander the Great was a leader of men. I don't think his Macedonian army would have intermarried with Persians, trekked the Sahara with Alexander into Northern India, etc. had it not been for Alexander's social skills, particularly his ability to lead.

I just don't see Bruce Wayne embodying those alpha male qualities.

If we use wikipedia's definition:

"The term "alpha male" is sometimes applied to humans to refer to a man who is powerful through his courage and a competitive, goal-driven, "take charge" attitude. With their bold approach and confidence "alpha males" are often described as charismatic. While "alpha males" are often overachievers and recognized for their leadership qualities, their aggressive tactics and competitiveness can also lead to resentment by others."

That is an accurate description of Batman. The only questionable details are leadership and charisma. But Batman shows leadership in his indirect leadership of Gotham police/sidekick/JLA and his charisma with his Bruce Wayne facade.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

He's going to be more intelligent and experienced, that is part of his character arc seen through the previous two films. Whether he'll become the world's greatest detective is pretty unlikely, because it doesn't fit tonally and narratively it paints him into a corner. It's hard to create conflict when Batman is so unbelievably good at what he does (Bat-god). He needs to be great, but not flawless. That actually defeats one of Batman's best aspects: his human fallibility.

I think Batman's flaws should be side effects of his near-perfect crime fighting.

Obsessive, cold, calculating, distant, loveless.

These are Batman's flaws, not a lack of foresight and direction. Those are his greatest strengths.

 

[ALP]

If you accept that we couldn't see Batman much later than the one hour mark in a massively expensive blockbuster film then I think Begins depicted Bruce's training about as effectively as one could reasonably hope. To simply get rid of Chill and his parents' murder just to make more space for 'different kinds of training' is a bit ludicrous, we have to see why Bruce became so messed up.

Some would say Bruce isn't as perfect as they'd like, others might that say Nolan went out of his way to convey a hero who's not infallible and, thus, relatable.

It's a completely different sort of topic but I have honestly never liked Joe Chill. It's not as bad as Joker as his parents killer but I just prefer the original text. The first ten years of Batman comics always portrayed his parents killer as a mysterious stranger/mugger. And it presents the view that not a named person with a face was responsible but it was the culmination of society's corruption that killed his parents. I just love that metaphor.

I don't think anyone can be Batman. I'd go even narrower and say any gifted human who has the requisite psychological scarring but the self-discipline to channel it into a productive force could be Batman. There's very few people throughout history who fit that profile and even fewer who channeled that towards a noble outcome.

I don't think Bruce Wayne is an alpha male at all. Alpha males are natural leaders. Bruce Wayne is not, he'd rather hide himself in the social fabric as a narcissistic playboy. He shuns social norms and engages in behavior (as Batman) that is socially unacceptable. In private, he's an introvert only trusting Alfred and a few select others. In public he's a foppish buffoon.

Bruce Wayne has more in common with a serial killer (obsessive loner) than an alpha male (natural leader).

Cannot agree on Bale's Wayne. He always jokes around with Alfred, is not manically depressed, and also feels for other characters such as Rachel, Lucius, Gordon, and Harvey. Obviously he is compelled to be Batman but Bale's Batman/Wayne has always seemed like he was in control as well, he is calm and only losing his temper in extreme circumstances like when Rachel and Harv's lives are at stake. And the fact that he is even willing to put on a playboy persona shows that he is still on planet earth. Obviously there is psychological trauma but he is still a hero with the correct mindset.

The Wayne you are describing goes far more with Keaton, who was an isolated hermit, hiding in Wayne Manor away from reality, and hanging upside down b/c he's not quite there. Keaton is the one who fits the psycho, over the edge type depiction. Hell in BR he even tells Selina he's afraid she'll think of him as the "norman bates, ted bundy type."

 

[PreK]

While agree with you for the most part I don't think "anybody can become Batman" is truer to mantra. I think the mantra is any gifted human with enough motivation, training, and resources could become a legendary superhero. You have to be naturally gifted to have any chance at reaching Batman's level. Mentally, Clark Kent is the everyman. Bruce Wayne is a born alpha male genius who took his natural gifts and honed them through the best training available to become something legendary.

Bruce Wayne is closer to Alexander the Great than he is to the average joe.

I don't think anyone can be Batman. I'd go even narrower and say any gifted human who has the requisite psychological scarring but the self-discipline to channel it into a productive force could be Batman. There's very few people throughout history who fit that profile and even fewer who channeled that towards a noble outcome.

You guys aren't wrong, though I think we're splitting hairs on the everyman concept. It's a given that not literally everyone could achieve what Bruce did. It just adds to the allure if that possibility (however far) exists for the viewer. At the end of the day it's still a remarkable feat for an individual to accomplish, no matter the fortunate circumstances that allowed him to do so.

I think Batman's flaws should be side effects of his near-perfect crime fighting.

Obsessive, cold, calculating, distant, loveless.

These are Batman's flaws, not a lack of foresight and direction. Those are his greatest strengths.

Yes, yes, yes. His combative ability and vast intellect tip the scales so far to one side, it comes at the cost of even the most simplest abilities that we take for granted as 'normal' people. To borrow from the great recent Sherlock series, I'd prefer to think of Bruce as a high-functioning sociopath.

I believe most people are aware of House played by Hugh Laurie? Basically Sherlock Holmes set in the medical field. It's several seasons in, he still carries the show, and is by far still one of the most interesting figures on television. We should be careful not to mistake super-smart as boring and boxed-in. When approached by a competent writer, said individual provides a plethora of intriguing material to work with.

 

[hatebox]

Yes, yes, yes. His combative ability and vast intellect tip the scales so far to one side, it comes at the cost of even the most simplest abilities that we take for granted as 'normal' people. To borrow from the great recent Sherlock series, I'd prefer to think of Bruce as a high-functioning sociopath.

In fairness the TDK scene of Batman setting up the surveillance system strongly alluded to that 'brilliant but socially questionable' characteristic.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

As long as he does some form of detective work, I'll be happy. And if he doesn't, well, that's not gonna break the movie for me.

 

[PreK]

In fairness the TDK scene of Batman setting up the surveillance system strongly alluded to that 'brilliant but socially questionable' characteristic.

I'd agree. Those moments were few and far between though. I myself quickly forgot its significance (among other small moments in TDK) with regards to the character's isolation, because they were so fleeting. My overall impression is still that Bale's Bruce is of a very stable mindset, in spite of his unruly behavior as Batman. I don't think he's necessarily awkward due to being so gifted, but more of how inexperienced he is with others. It's a slight distinction, but an important one at that.

Again, I will reiterate that this interpretation isn't invalid in any way to the character. It's just not my preferred route. I gravitate more towards the Bruce Wayne who's right at the edge of sanity, but one who is fully aware he's treading dangerous territory. It's very much why I'm completely in love with Sherlock Holmes and House.

 

[namtaB]

If we use wikipedia's definition:

"The term "alpha male" is sometimes applied to humans to refer to a man who is powerful through his courage and a competitive, goal-driven, "take charge" attitude. With their bold approach and confidence "alpha males" are often described as charismatic. While "alpha males" are often overachievers and recognized for their leadership qualities, their aggressive tactics and competitiveness can also lead to resentment by others."

You can't really define an alpha male in a vacuum. Courage, confidence, goal driven, etc. aren't what makes an alpha male. An alpha male is one who is the leader of the pack.

That's the key issue. He is at the forefront of the pack, what we know as society in our highly evolved species. He's one of the pillars of society.

Batman is not that at all. He operates outside of social norms and engages in behavior, costumed vigilantism, that is unacceptable.

The only questionable details are leadership and charisma.

Those are pretty key areas that Batman does not fulfill as they are the things that separate an alpha male from someone who has ambition and determination.

 

[redhawk23]

Great point.

This is one of the biggest problems I had with Batman Begins. It down played the amount of diverse, expert training Bruce had leading up to becoming Batman. Instead Ras Al Ghul gets the bulk of the creadit for teaching Bruce some mystical ninija stuff after Bruce is an adult and this somehow explains how Bruce has the skillset to be Batman.

Unacceptable. I hope they fix the origin after Nolan's gone.

well Bruce does make a reference to having prior training while sword fighting with Ras

 

[metalhead_dave]

well Bruce does make a reference to having prior training while sword fighting with Ras

Not to mention, he brutally owned 6(or7) inmates of an Asian prison, and tried a bunch of different fighting styles on Ras when Ras owned him in the beginning.

Why do people keep forgetting that? He was trained to fight by the time he met Ras, Ras just refined it.

 

[hatebox]

I'd agree. Those moments were few and far between though. I myself quickly forgot its significance (among other small moments in TDK) with regards to the character's isolation, because they were so fleeting.

That the surveillance scene was near the very end of TDK should bode well if you like that angle of Batman - it felt like he had finally crossed some kind of line and I'd guess that side of his personality will only become more overt in TDKR.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Not to mention, he brutally owned 6(or7) inmates of an Asian prison, and tried a bunch of different fighting styles on Ras when Ras owned him in the beginning.

Why do people keep forgetting that? He was trained to fight by the time he met Ras, Ras just refined it.

Earlier I posted this:

Showing that Bruce knows different fighting styles is not enough. You need to show the diversity of training it would require to be the worlds greatest crime fighter (master at escape, disguise, forensics, spying, tracking, etc). You could cut out 100% of the Joe Chill murder plot and 50% of the Ras Al Ghul training and have plenty of time to show Bruce world travel for diverse crime fighting methods. Better yet everytime Batman is challenged show a breif flash back of a foreign master drilling him on a technique in some exotic location. This is one way to give an overview necessary to show why Batman is such a prolific crime fighter.

 

[metalhead_dave]

Earlier I posted this:

So what's your point? If anything, Nolan left it open for flashbacks later down the line. Gotham Knight embelleshed on it with "Working Through Pain," showing Bruce training with that lady who's name escapes me.

Jeez, the first Batman story ever didn't show his origin or how he got to be so good. It got fleshed out in 70 years. Begins showed the training that was needed to be shown for the story told. Nolan left it open for more training flashbacks if future directors or even Nolan himself wants to explore that avenue.

 

[wootbaby]

Interesting.

I think Bruce is a natural athlete with genius intellect which would make him more of an alpha male. Even if you define an alpha male by hard work and ambition Bruce qualifies.

I don't think bruce is a mental case. He's a self-actualized alpha male whose concrete goal is to have a one-man war on crime. It's this goal that makes Bruce an obsessive loner, not a broken mind.

Traditionally Bruce's defining characteristic isn't about being alpha male but the opposite, a rejection of society. Being an alpha male is about having power and control over other men, if that was his defining characteristic, there's better ways to do that like using Wayne Enterprises to take over the world.

To Bruce, the world killed his parents and the world is wrong. The traditional trappings of order like the Law and Society are shams. All that matters is the individual to do what's right. Even with the trappings of power, it's the individual that matters (like Gordan, who as a man is righteous unrelated to his position as a lawman) . Bruce doesn't define himself or his role in relation to society but outside it.

The entire thing with the theatricality of the bat etc goes to the primal and supernatural. Not something of man or society (like alpha male) but something beyond or separate from it, judging it and enacting retribution from somewhere else.

Nolan's Batman is a little different. He still abhors Law and Society but he believes in individuals. So to him it's not about individual righteousness or power but the power of an individual to inspire and appeal to other individuals outside the power structure (which is inherently corrupt).

Nolan's innovation to the Batman mythos is that he's made Batman a believer. In the end it's not him that's going to change society but the people he inspires to stand up and take back their city and civilization. Like Thoreau or other philosophers Batman isn't crazy, he is just able to take a step back unlike others in the rat race and take an objective look at society and its shortcomings, without any of the investments or attachments that corrupt people delude themselves with.

The thing that makes Batman dangerous is that he's entirely uninterested in the collateral cost of his absolute righteousness. Everything is black and white and there's no quarter for black. For example in today's society he'd be fighting our government for a withdrawl of forces from Afghanistan, looking at the corruption there by the Afghani officials, the crimes and atrocities committed in the Middle East by our soldiers and human cost it's had to the innocent... regardless of the geopolitical considerations of such a withdrawl. Batman isn't crazy exactly but he isn't exactly stable, politically or socially speaking either as all idealistic and radical activists are.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Not to mention, he brutally owned 6(or7) inmates of an Asian prison, and tried a bunch of different fighting styles on Ras when Ras owned him in the beginning.

Why do people keep forgetting that? He was trained to fight by the time he met Ras, Ras just refined it.

Also important to add that the guy climbed up a freakin mountain when he fought Ra's and could barely stand. So it wasn't like he was completely owned on fair terms.

I thought they did a good job of showing that Bruce didn't learn all his combative training in one place, I just wished they had shown him studying the sciences, criminology and that sort of thing more.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Traditionally Bruce's defining characteristic isn't about being alpha male but the opposite, a rejection of society. Being an alpha male is about having power and control over other men, if that was his defining characteristic, there's better ways to do that like using Wayne Enterprises to take over the world.

To Bruce, the world killed his parents and the world is wrong. The traditional trappings of order like the Law and Society are shams. All that matters is the individual to do what's right. Even with the trappings of power, it's the individual that matters (like Gordan, who as a man is righteous unrelated to his position as a lawman) . Bruce doesn't define himself or his role in relation to society but outside it.

The entire thing with the theatricality of the bat etc goes to the primal and supernatural. Not something of man or society (like alpha male) but something beyond or separate from it, judging it and enacting retribution from somewhere else.

Nolan's Batman is a little different. He still abhors Law and Society but he believes in individuals. So to him it's not about individual righteousness or power but the power of an individual to inspire and appeal to other individuals outside the power structure (which is inherently corrupt).

Nolan's innovation to the Batman mythos is that he's made Batman a believer. In the end it's not him that's going to change society but the people he inspires to stand up and take back their city and civilization. Like Thoreau or other philosophers Batman isn't crazy, he is just able to take a step back unlike others in the rat race and take an objective look at society and its shortcomings, without any of the investments or attachments that corrupt people delude themselves with.

The thing that makes Batman dangerous is that he's entirely uninterested in the collateral cost of his absolute righteousness. Everything is black and white and there's no quarter for black. For example in today's society he'd be fighting our government for a withdrawl of forces from Afghanistan, looking at the corruption there by the Afghani officials, the crimes and atrocities committed in the Middle East by our soldiers and human cost it's had to the innocent... regardless of the geopolitical considerations of such a withdrawl. Batman isn't crazy exactly but he isn't exactly stable, politically or socially speaking either as all idealistic and radical activists are.

I don't think a real Batman would have any place in todays society.

He would try to change the system and the system would end up changing him. This happens to many idealist who set out to change the world.

but you're spot on with your description of Batman as someone who exist outside of society's rules. He basically swoops in and does things based on his own rules. He is barely noticed except by those he targets.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

So what's your point? If anything, Nolan left it open for flashbacks later down the line. Gotham Knight embelleshed on it with "Working Through Pain," showing Bruce training with that lady who's name escapes me.

Jeez, the first Batman story ever didn't show his origin or how he got to be so good. It got fleshed out in 70 years. Begins showed the training that was needed to be shown for the story told. Nolan left it open for more training flashbacks if future directors or even Nolan himself wants to explore that avenue.

I don't expect Batman's first appearance in comics to give a thorough overview of Batman's past. We're talking about a 2 hour movie made well after the details of Batman's training has been established.

There's no excuse. The audience should know Bruce trained in all areas of crime fighting, with masters from all over the world, since he was a child. That explains why he's such a complete and masterful crime fighter.

Him simply knowing different fighting styles and then mystical ninjitsu doesn't cut it.

 

[Doc Samson]

I thought they did a good job of showing that Bruce didn't learn all his combative training in one place, I just wished they had shown him studying the sciences, criminology and that sort of thing more.

True, but I also think we need to remember it's a movie, and certain elements just work for entertainment purposes. Opening the film with our "hero" in a jail cell in some foreign region with no prior knowledge of how he got there is just a dramatic way to introduce Bruce Wayne. With all the other flashbacks fleshing out his story, I'm just not certain how much time they really had to show everything, plus return him to Gotham and finish the rest of the story.

A quick flashback may have served it justice, maybe not, but at what point do we expect the audience to accept and know certain things of a character with such a rich and long history? I'm also not so sure just how much Nolan's Bruce Wayne actually knows about science & criminology. He's obviously very bright but this is a very different interpretation, and he leans on Fox much more than he ever did in the comics. Perhaps this Batman isn't quite the detective we think he should be because he doesn't have to be, just as Harvey Dent wasn't quite the gimmicky Two-Face he's been portrayed as previously.

 

[ALP]

I actually like Fox's role in this series. Remember Bruce did create many things himself. He put the suit together as a whole in Begins, created the cowl, forged the bat-stars, etc. Seriously, what else did you guys want him to do? Personally mold the tumbler and create its engine? LOL it makes perfect sense that Batman would get the tumbler and all the high tech gadgets from Fox.

But a cool little moment in Returns was when Keaton was in a mechanics outfit fixing the batmobile. Something along those lines is just a simple little indication that Bruce knows a lot as well, so a scene similar to that would be cool in DKR. Note there is a big difference between fixing a car and creating one from scrap lol