BvS Skepticism Regarding the Film - Part 10

[Tra-El]

The standard for Batman and Superman and what level playing field they play on has been shown these past 3 years. The bar they set as hero's is crucial and the only skeptic part I have is that the fans are going to brutally pick this thing apart more than any other CBM created. The nitpicks are going to be a sight to see. That process has been in motion for a long time. That's my only worry. Not the film. The things shown are beautiful, but sadly, we live in an age where people are head over heals for a profanity driven Deadpool movie but aren't impressed with some hardcore battles between Superman and Batman. Fans have officially put Superman and Batman on an impossible level to be judged on.

Or so it feels.

 

[morningmimosa]

The standard for Batman and Superman and what level playing field they play on has been shown these past 3 years. The bar they set as hero's is crucial and the only skeptic part I have is that the fans are going to brutally pick this thing apart more than any other CBM created. The nitpicks are going to be a sight to see. That process has been in motion for a long time. That's my only worry. Not the film. The things shown are beautiful, but sadly, we live in an age where people are head over heals for a profanity driven Deadpool movie but aren't impressed with some hardcore battles between Superman and Batman. Fans have officially put Superman and Batman on an impossible level to be judged on.

Or so it feels.

Agreed on every level.

 

[Nemeres]

The assessment that BVS is subject to anti-DC/Snyder bias comes hand-in-hand with the belief that criticism of Man of Steel was somehow majorly unfair, which evidently makes context difficult to see. As if good movies of this much notoriety and easy appeal getting the shaft were a regular occurrence. I actually do believe BVS could, hypothetically, get raves, 80%-plus on RT, Marvel-level love, etc. Maybe not the film that's already in the can, but one still by the same director, if it actually were everything people don't expect it to be. Very few blockbusters of genuine quality need the safety net of "pre-existing bias" that fans are willing to give Snyder.

 

[Asharad]

But with an attitude that there's no chance the film will be anything but a steaming flop, why even bother posting here?

1. I never said this movie will flop. I believe it will be successful. But I think it will be divisive. There will be plenty of people who don't like it, and I'm getting the sinking feeling that I'm one of those.

2. I post here because I'm a fan of CB movies, and I loved DC before Valiant or Marvel. I want this movie to be everything that MoS was not. But it looks to be more of the same. I keep coming back every few months hoping that something Wil change.

See? It's divisive.

 

[Flint Marko]

Said it before and I'll say it again: the supposed bias against DC and/or Snyder amongst film critics doesn't exist on any significant level. I'd argue the same goes for the general audience as a whole. If BvS is a good movie it will be recognized as such. If it isn't there will be a large contingent of people here insisting that people didn't give it a fair shake.

 

[Boy Scout]

MoS had both boring and fun fight scenes.

For sure.

The Battle of Smallville is one of my favorite action scenes of all time (despite the fact that I have some major problems with it). The Battle of Metropolis, on the other hand, is such a chore to sit through.

Said it before and I'll say it again: the supposed bias against DC and/or Snyder amongst film critics doesn't exist on any significant level. I'd argue the same goes for the general audience as a whole. If BvS is a good movie it will be recognized as such. If it isn't there will be a large contingent of people here insisting that people didn't give it a fair shake.

As usual, we agree.

I'm not saying this film isn't going to be scrutinized more than others, but I think it has more to do with the fact that it's DC's first real attempt to kick of their shared universe. This film, for better or worse, is going to set the tone for pretty much every major film going forward. Of course it's going to be under a lot of scrutiny, especially since they're taking a different approach than Marvel., There will, of course, be people who be going in wanting to hate and criticize the movie, but I don't think there are enough of them to make a difference if the movie turns out to be genuinely good.

 

[Bane Cook]

Said it before and I'll say it again: the supposed bias against DC and/or Snyder amongst film critics doesn't exist on any significant level. I'd argue the same goes for the general audience as a whole. If BvS is a good movie it will be recognized as such. If it isn't there will be a large contingent of people here insisting that people didn't give it a fair shake.

Nah I don't believe that. There will be some people who say it didn't no matter what. But if it gets negative reviews I think more people will say it didn't get a fair shake on the basis of what the reviews say. That's what I'll judge on. For example how many MOS reviews were saying that that isn't the Superman they know and using it as a knock on the film? Superman should be hopeful and uplifting not dark blah blah. That's great and all if that's what they wanted, but now the film is being judged with preconceived notions being factored in instead of purely as its own thing. Is that the only reason people didn't like MOS? Absolutely not which is why I said those type of things are not the only reason it would get a low score but are definitely factors that contribute. In my opinion that is not a fair shake. And that's off the top of my head for MOS. I'm sure if someone is willing to elaborate more on it they could.

 

[Tra-El]

Said it before and I'll say it again: the supposed bias against DC and/or Snyder amongst film critics doesn't exist on any significant level. I'd argue the same goes for the general audience as a whole. If BvS is a good movie it will be recognized as such. If it isn't there will be a large contingent of people here insisting that people didn't give it a fair shake.

General audience? Absolutely. Internet communities? It exists. I use to believe it not to be the case, but the bigger the movie, the bigger widespread and the bigger the widespread, the bigger the communities that are willing to pounce. I judge from my own experiences and what my eyes tell me and the reception of BvS over these past 3 years compared to everything else that came out is jaw dropping with negativity. Both fair and unfair.

The good news is, the GA is a much, much bigger goal to win over because most of the hatred in the fanboy internet communities WILL go see the majority of the movies they lash out on anyhow.

The key is the general audience, but contrary to what I believe before, I now believe there's a huge bias and hate towards DC and it's more reactionary now because of the momentum that got us here. Most of it, IMO, is that DC has only ONE movie to go by and the buildup over these 3 years and the long wait compared to the competitor can sometimes bring out the worst in fans. Once DC starts spitting these out, hopefully they are great films and the DCEU wins people over. It's bound to happen.

 

[Tra-El]

In my opinion that is not a fair shake. And that's off the top of my head for MOS. I'm sure if someone is willing to elaborate more on it they could.

 

[Bane Cook]

Haha dude I'm on a phone and haven't slept yet. I'm tagging out

 

[TripleJ]

Yes, but I think you already understand:

We are on the opposite sides of the divide.

You know that feeling of anticipation you get after watching a great trailer? It's just not there for me. The casting for Lex is weak. The fight scenes look like an escalation of the boring fights from MoS. Overall I'm just not impressed.

Now that you've drawn me out, I'm preparing myself for the flames. I post here about once every 2 months, and each time I'm insulted and told to leave. I'll be back in three months to read up about the movie. Hopefully it gets better.

That's fine man. Not everything is for everyone, just like the comics. We have fans of different books and different variations/iterations of these characters, and that's what makes it all so great!

(sometimes unbearable too..with some fans claiming certain versions are "wrong"...whatever that means ).

I hope you watch the movie and find it enjoyable

 

[rogbngp]

DC's grittier, more realistic approach is going to sell. There's ample evidence for that already with the success of the Nolan trilogy, to some extent the darker and more serious themes of Winter Soldier (and Civil War), and Netflix' Daredevil TV series.

The approach just jarred a lot of traditional Superman fans that hold the Donner/Reeve conception of the character dear to their hearts--they were like WTF??!!!. With MoS they weren't expecting an approach to the character that is by comparison far closer to Watchmen, let's say, than Superman: The Movie.

But DC's superheroes are in a lot of ways more reminiscent of the pantheon of ancient Greek gods than Marvel's superheroes. (Which if you go to the ancient source material is hella dark!) So WB has a lead director, and chief architect for the DCEU master plan, that delves into that dimension by playing it up, giving us more intricate worldbuilding, and framing the tales as if they actually existed in our real world. These films will be action packed, a visual feast for the eyes, heart-pounding, thrilling, and 'majestic' or epic feeling--that goes without saying. But like Tolkien's Middle-Earth or Watchmen they're also going to have lots of layers to peel back about mythology and what these heroes mean to the collective cultural psyche, and so forth. That will subtly and skillfully be embedded for those who love to find such hidden treasures in this genre.

That is WB's big gamble. But I think the stylistic approach is going to ultimately sell. As much popcorn fun as the movies are surely going to be, they are at the same time going to take a serious dramatic approach to the superhero genre.

I watched an interview once with Snyder where he laughed that he made Watchmen because in his mind it's a serious source book, which he more or less faithfully translated as an art film, that 'legitimizes' his love of comic books. Zack is all into Joseph Campbell and whatnot and "the why of it" with respect to the films iconography. But he is amazingly subtle, actually, at weaving those more conceptual layers layers into the film, which first and foremost is an escapist entertainment product.

Anyway, WB decided that's where they are headed with the DCEU. There is a huge market for grittier, darker, and more realistic superhero films--that is already established. So they are following that direction. And again, admittedly, MoS launched that approach somewhat fitfully and shockingly. But as noted that was mainly because fans had so much cognitive dissonance with such an approach in relation to the Superman character specifically. With the Batman and Wonder Woman characters it will feel far more congruent. BvS will make it clear that the more mature approach will work fine for the JL (of which Superman is a part).

 

[Zarex]

DC's grittier, more realistic approach is going to sell. There's ample evidence for that already with the success of the Nolan trilogy, to some extent the darker and more serious themes of Winter Soldier, and Netflix' Daredevil TV series.
.

I get the gritty part - we've gotten a lot of rain, darkness and angry stares in the trailers. But realistic? The trailers have also shown us two actors in muscle suits with symbols on their chests and glorious capes. We've seen one of them defying gravity to rescue a doomed space flight and another one - the realistic human guy - beating up a dozen men in peak physical condition despite being well into his 40s. We've seen a lovely young lady in greek inspired armor showing off her crazy vertical and a CGI monster skating across a parking lot.

And that's one of the key reasons I am skeptical about BvS. The super self-serious tone is diametrically opposed to the absurdity of what is being presented. The self referential humor of the MCU gets criticized quite a bit, but it plays a key role in getting audiences to buy into all the goofiness.

 

[Hurm...]

I get the gritty part - we've gotten a lot of rain, darkness and angry stares in the trailers. But realistic? The trailers have also shown us two actors in muscle suits with symbols on their chests and glorious capes. We've seen one of them defying gravity to rescue a doomed space flight and another one - the realistic human guy - beating up a dozen men in peak physical condition despite being well into his 40s. We've seen a lovely young lady in greek inspired armor showing off her crazy vertical and a CGI monster skating across a parking lot.

And that's one of the key reasons I am skeptical about BvS. The super self-serious tone is diametrically opposed to the absurdity of what is being presented. The self referential humor of the MCU gets criticized quite a bit, but it plays a key role in getting audiences to buy into all the goofiness.

Nailed it.

 

[rogbngp]

@both Zarex and Hurm,

I totally agree that it is a huge challenge to give a more serious dramatic tone to a comic book superhero. Tastes on how to do that obviously vary. And perhaps as much as half of the the CBM fan base won't like it from the getgo.

But remember too that they're looking past us to the GA. So they have to include fun popcorn elements. People go see a CBM for fun escapism, first and foremost. The more conceptually mature and serious themes will have to be woven in symbolically. I cite A Thesis on Man of Steel as a really good example of how that sort of thing can be done. Even if the author goes a bit beyond what Snyder consciously intended, I think he is on target with the broadest strokes.

And again, studying MoS for what the author of A Thesis on Man of Steel conjectures is intentionally embedded visually in the film, is something that only hardcore CBM fans will do, and dissect and debate, etc. But I think it will be there.

Yes, there is a dichotomy between the pure escapism of CBMs, on the one hand, and what they might tell us about ourselves and the world we live in at a more serious level, on the other. It can be inspected or ignored. But arguably it is there. And a director like Snyder wants to use it.

Will it pay off? I hope so, but I admit that at the end of the day I really can't be sure yet. It might not. But personally I think it's a gamble worth taking.

 

[king666]

The "conspiracy against WB/DC" thing is non-sense.

For sure.

The Battle of Smallville is one of my favorite action scenes of all time (despite the fact that I have some major problems with it). The Battle of Metropolis, on the other hand, is such a chore to sit through.

I feel the same way.

 

[Hurm...]

It certainly can work, but like you've mentioned rogbngp, there's greater risk involved. And with greater risk, comes a greater chance at failure.

 

[Bane Cook]

And that's one of the key reasons I am skeptical about BvS. The super self-serious tone is diametrically opposed to the absurdity of what is being presented. The self referential humor of the MCU gets criticized quite a bit, but it plays a key role in getting audiences to buy into all the goofiness.

Yes, it's going to be tougher to pull off and as a result will have a greater chance of failure as some have said. Not that you're saying this, but I don't think DC should go the jokey route. My personal hell would be all studios producing Marvel style movies.

After X-Men but more so Nolan we are finally able to have CBMs that take themselves seriously after all the goofiness that came before it. I want the option to have serious movies with my favorite absurdly dressed characters. I like that DC is taking the serious tone because if MCU style goofiness becomes the norm and only accepted way to do CBM we're right back where we started. In my opinion it's a good thing DC is going for a serious approach over rapid-fire minigun jokes.

 

[TripleJ]

It certainly can work, but like you've mentioned rogbngp, there's greater risk involved. And with greater risk, comes a greater chance at failure.

Indeed...but life would be boring if we played it safe, right?



I would rather have Snyder and Co takes risks and fail, than play it safe (although I do understand that this would affect all the other characters and change WB's plans regarding a DC cinematic universe).

 

[rogbngp]

And great reward, Hurm!

I mean, I do think that if my formulation is mostly correct, there probably are some WB execs sweating bullets about it. God, yes.

But I also think that they have to have done their market research on this product. That is what those producers are paid for and do all day long. Guys like Roven. They feel sure by now that know what the have with BvS. There's no way they don't.

And they are already in production with Wonder Woman (buzz about which is that Gadot is crushing it), and Snyder at the helm for JL Part 1 April 11th, when BvS is still fresh in the theaters. This means their market research informs them that they have at least a solid product. It's only a question of how successful.

 

[Hurm...]

The Nolan example is a very weak one, considering the content in this picture is drastically different than that trilogy.

 

[Hurm...]

Indeed...but life would be boring if we played it safe, right?



I would rather have Snyder and Co takes risks and fail, than play it safe (although I do understand that this would affect all the other characters and change WB's plans regarding a DC cinematic universe).

I agree, that's why I'm looking forward to the film. There are a lot of interesting ideas at play, and I want to know how it all pays off.

 

[TripleJ]

I get the gritty part - we've gotten a lot of rain, darkness and angry stares in the trailers. But realistic? The trailers have also shown us two actors in muscle suits with symbols on their chests and glorious capes. We've seen one of them defying gravity to rescue a doomed space flight and another one - the realistic human guy - beating up a dozen men in peak physical condition despite being well into his 40s. We've seen a lovely young lady in greek inspired armor showing off her crazy vertical and a CGI monster skating across a parking lot.

And that's one of the key reasons I am skeptical about BvS. The super self-serious tone is diametrically opposed to the absurdity of what is being presented. The self referential humor of the MCU gets criticized quite a bit, but it plays a key role in getting audiences to buy into all the goofiness.

But, is all comic books/stories goofy? Sure, there are a lot of silly stuff..but isn't it a disservice to the genre to call all comic books (well Superhero material) goofy/silly?

Take Kingdom Come for instance. Or Red Son. They are all (relatively) dark and mature stories that readers enjoyed quite well.

It really depends on the execution of it all, and I hope Snyder does that well in BvS (I don't have any doubts about that...from what I have seen, Snyder's weakness is in story elements, which is more of a screenwriter's job than director's. And WB has got a great screenwriter for this project).

 

[Bane Cook]

The Nolan example is a very weak one, considering the content in this picture is drastically different than that trilogy.

Man of Steel was also a good example. Regardless of what you think of that movie's quality the serious/grounded approach did work. The script needed some major retooling but the seriousness was not the issue with that movie imo.

It's possible and Marvel's way is not the only way(not that you're saying that).

 

[rogbngp]

Production for a film of this magnitude takes years of planning. WB has already delayed the release by a year. I think they did so in order to maneuvering its release for Easter weekend this year, the subsequent films' release schedule, and to make tweaks to try to assure that everything has been done to tighten it up and polish it in every way they can think of. Not because they were worried about the product itself.

McWeeny's report may have a germ of truth that some WB execs that are hoping for the stratosphere in sales may not see that achieved, and/or may be getting clay feet about the darker approach they have gambled on. But this film will easily do $1B. Opening weekend will probably fall between $150M to in excess of $200M. I think the only real question is where total world-wide box office will fall between $1B and considerably upwards from there.