State your unpopular film related opinion - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 32

[Awest66]

[

I just watched the bomb clip on YouTube.

We very clearly see Batman in the cockpit as the Bat clears the skyscrapers and approaches the bridge.

The bat then clears the shoreline and heads out to sea, the shot then cuts to Batman in the cockpit.

We have a shot of him in the cockpit which then cuts to the ocean for about five seconds, and then to the bomb, which has 5 seconds left on the timer. Cut back to Blake on the bridge for about 2 seconds and then boom.

There are plenty of ways to shoot that - including not cutting to Batman 5 seconds before the bomb explodes, or otherwise misdirecting the audience that make it plausible that he escaped. Instead showing him in the cockpit establishes that he's in the Bat without sufficient time to escape, unless he can outrun a nuclear blast ( although I'm assuming the detonation was below the water's surface )- Claiming it's some sort of "editing trick " is not a particularly convincing explanation. I submit that this is more than a nitpick.

The more plausible explanation is that Nolan got this one wrong. I love his films but he's not perfect. TDKR had a bunch of big and interesting ideas, but for whatever reason this time his reach exceeded his grasp ( as Tesla says in the Prestige).

And for good villain portrayals - well okay at least better than Bane there's Cate Blanchett as Hela, Josh Brolin as Thanos, Heath Ledger and Joaquin Phoenix as the Joker, Ian McKellen and Michael Fassbender as Magneto, Tom Hiddleston as Loki,
Michael Keaton as Vulture, Jake Gyllenhaal as Mysterio, Jude Law as Yon Rogg, Kevin Bacon as Sebastian Shaw, Daniel Bruhl as Zemo......I could keep going. Admittedly, there have been some cbm villains worse than Bane, like Malekith, Steppenwolf, Lex Luthor and Ronan the Accuser, but at least I could understand what they were saying when I was in the cinema - I won tickets to the premiere of TDKR, and down here it opened a full day and a half before anywhere else, and all through it I kept thinking " I bet that would sound really badass if it wasn't so muffled" the Blackgate speech, especially where his voice breaks is almost unintentionally hilarious.

I respect your opinion about Bane and I will admit that his beatdown of Batman was pretty chilling, despite the " phantom punch" and that Hardy had terrific physical presence as Bane - but utterly failed with the vocalization.

I found this explanation on TDKR FAQ page on IMDB that I think explains it better I ever could.

He ejected from the Bat before it flew out over the Bay. Immediately before he boarded the Bat, Selina Kyle suggested that he would eject, but Batman said he could not because the plane had "no autopilot." It turned out, however, that the plane did have autopilot—Bruce Wayne had fixed the autopilot through a software patch, as revealed in Lucius's Fox later scene where he is studying the autopilot software on the silver-colored development prototype Bat. Batman evidently ejected from the plane sometime between boarding it and when the bomb detonated. We actually see him push a lever while in flight, but the scene cuts away before revealing this lever's effect. John Blake and the orphans then view an explosion near a building, followed by the Bat flying over the bay. This explosion would hide Batman's ejection from the public's view. We do not see Batman in the Bat between the explosion and the bomb's detonation. We do see one shot of him, but it is a close-up that does not show the larger Bat. This closeup shows him turning another lever, as though piloting an aircraft, though the Bat traveled a straight path at this point. This shot therefore depicted the ejected cockpit rather than the entire Bat aircraft. Similarly, in The Dark Knight, the Batmobile ejected a self-contained vehicle (the Batpod). Also, in listening carefully, it is clear that the sound of the engine of the Bat in the scene which was previously mentioned doesn't sound mechanical at all (we just hear an electric buzz); although in the following exterior shots, the propellers of the Bat are clearly heard which might indicates that Batman boards a different vehicle with electric engines—different than the propeller-powered Bat—thus proving that he had indeed ejected.


As for Villain portrayals, I'll concede that you may have a point with a couple of them like the Joker's, The Magneto's, Thanos and Loki but Bane easily blows the rest of them out of the water especially Zemo (who has exactly the same motivation as Talia and a much more complicated and convoluted plan), Evil Galadriel, The Iron Man, oh wait I mean Spidey villains and Kevin Bacon as Kevin Bacon. You seriously think Jude Laws generic soldier is better than Bane? That's just silly.

 

[Batmannerism]

[


I found this explanation on TDKR FAQ page on IMDB that I think explains it better I ever could.

He ejected from the Bat before it flew out over the Bay. Immediately before he boarded the Bat, Selina Kyle suggested that he would eject, but Batman said he could not because the plane had "no autopilot." It turned out, however, that the plane did have autopilot—Bruce Wayne had fixed the autopilot through a software patch, as revealed in Lucius's Fox later scene where he is studying the autopilot software on the silver-colored development prototype Bat. Batman evidently ejected from the plane sometime between boarding it and when the bomb detonated. We actually see him push a lever while in flight, but the scene cuts away before revealing this lever's effect. John Blake and the orphans then view an explosion near a building, followed by the Bat flying over the bay. This explosion would hide Batman's ejection from the public's view. We do not see Batman in the Bat between the explosion 2and the bomb's detonation. We do see one shot of him, but it is a close-up that does not show the larger Bat. This closeup shows him turning another lever, as though piloting an aircraft, though the Bat traveled a straight path at this point. This shot therefore depicted the ejected cockpit rather than the entire Bat aircraft. Similarly, in The Dark Knight, the Batmobile ejected a self-contained vehicle (the Batpod). Also, in listening carefully, it is clear that the sound of the engine of the Bat in the scene which was previously mentioned doesn't sound mechanical at all (we just hear an electric buzz); although in the following exterior shots, the propellers of the Bat are clearly heard which might indicates that Batman boards a different vehicle with electric engines—different than the propeller-powered Bat—thus proving that he had indeed ejected.


As for Villain portrayals, I'll concede that you may have a point with a couple of them like the Joker's, The Magneto's, Thanos and Loki but Bane easily blows the rest of them out of the water especially Zemo (who has exactly the same motivation as Talia and a much more complicated and convoluted plan), Evil Galadriel, The Iron Man, oh wait I mean Spidey villains and Kevin Bacon as Kevin Bacon. You seriously think Jude Laws generic soldier is better than Bane? That's just silly.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mKruTde5LdE&ved=2ahUKEwjC3qm2_proAhWNbisKHUZ9AfcQwqsBMAF6BAgEEAg&usg=AOvVaw0R1V14QtEJTcA1PXx3I2yT

I don't think its disputable that Batman ejected at some point, my issue is that the way the scene is presented to the audience is implausible and shatters the suspension of disbelief.

With regards to IMDB's explanation, it's not bad but, watch the scene, because the explanation doesn't match what actually happens in the film.

At 2:37 Batman fires his rockets, creating the explosion which draws Blake's attention. He is clearly in the Bat's cockpit at this point.

At 2:45 The Bat clears the skyscrapers in full view of Blake, from the bridge.

At 2:48 we see Batman in the cockpit of the Bat, with buildings visible, side on in the background. The most reasonable assumption is that he is still in the Bat. This is inconsistent with IMDB's explanation. He's clearly still in the Bat here, so no ejection yet, that's very hard to dispute.

At 2:52 the Bat clears the bridge and heads out to sea.

From this point it is possible that Batman ejected - although TBH that the Bat has another entirely self contained flying vehicle built into it is an assumption - just because the Tumbler did, doesn't mean the Bat did, and given that aircraft ejectors are usually seats, because there simply isn't space to build a separate aircraft inside another aircraft ( where weight and space are serious issues - unlike in a ground vehicle) I'm not going to say it's a reasonable assumption.

Also, we dont see another vehicle detach itself - so it's just an assumption that Batman ejected yet, once the Bat is in the distance that's more plausible.

What would have made sense is for Batman to eject out and either parachute or glide back to the city ( although that ignores the penetrating chest wound he received from Talia's knife, but that' s a whole other discussion).

At 3:13 we see Batman in a cockpit - I grant you that it is not conclusively shown to be the Bat, although it looks like it, but other than facial expressions we don't see much else, we certainly dont see him use any controls ( again inconsistent with the IMDB explanation). If he has ejected since the Bat moved out of sight range of the city this doesn't give him much time to clear the blast radius - and he'd need to be flying at faster than Mach 1 to clear six miles in 10-17 seconds (feel free to check my math).

Again, there was no reason to show this, except for dramatic effect to misdirect the audience and sell the idea that he's about to commit a very noble sacrifice, although his facial expressions are very open to interpretation ( I believe that he planned to give the impression of a noble sacrifice from the moment he got back to Gotham, as his " You've given these people everything......No, not yet." conversation with Selina implies. I get what Nolan's trying to do, but he's creating a problem for himself at the same time.

Back to clip.He is visible in shot until- 3:19.

At 3:26 the shot cuts to the bomb with 5 seconds before detonation.

The bomb cleared the shoreline at about 3:05, which gives about 30 seconds before detonation.

At 3:30 the bomb detonates.

With a six mile blast radius this means the Bat had to get at least 6 miles away to prevent the destruction of Gotham's shoreline, maybe a bit less as the weapon is a neutron bomb which is more about releasing deadly radiation rather than sheer explosive might AND ditching the bomb in the water would probably help shield the city ( and Batman) from its effects to some degree. Still he has to be flying pretty fast, over twice as fast as the worlds fastest helicopter ( the Bat is essentially a helicopter) probably faster than the speed of sound ( we wont go into the problems of sonic booms or pressure waves from a low level supersonic flight)

I don't struggle with the speed issue because Batman having tech that cann do nearly impossible stuff is a convention, and doesn't disturb the suspension of disbelief.

The explanation you've quoted has one of its key assumptions wrong ( that Batman leaves the Bat after he fires rockets at the skyscrapers), but I concede that if the Bat did have another vehicle built into the Bat, then the cockpit view we see of him about 10 seconds before detonation makes more sense. The problem is that Nolan does nothing to set that up, other than the earlier obvious misdirection about the autopilot.

I have read an explanation on quora that when Batman says " No autopilot." It could be read with a comma I.e. " No, autopilot." Which changes the meaning of that line completely. That's a bit of a stretch but I like the use of grammar.


So back to the main issue, did Batman eject ? Unless Alfred's hallucinating at the end, then clearly yes, it just isn't done in a way that's consistent with the suspension of disbelief.

Sometimes a director sets up something that looks impossible, using misdirection and it really works - Nolan himself does this very skillfully at the end of the Prestige. I don't feel that Nolan accomplished this as well in TDKR, and I'm hardly alone in that regard.



And yes I do think Jude Law was a better villain than Bane, he was kind of like Captain Marvel's evil life coach, and more importantly I understood every word that he said and didn't want to laugh every time he spoke. If you find that silly, you're entitled to your opinion.

 

[Awest66]

At 2:48 we see Batman in the cockpit of the Bat, with buildings visible, side on in the background. The most reasonable assumption is that he is still in the Bat. This is inconsistent with IMDB's explanation. He's clearly still in the Bat here, so no ejection yet, that's very hard to dispute.

I didn't catch that originally so Hat's off to you I guess. It stand still stands to reason that Batman did eject at some point after the explosion and that when we see him in the last close-up before it cut's to the timer counting to zero, He's ejected in a separate vehicle and was far away from the blast radius. I mean the Bat is roughly the size of the tumbler, is it really that much of a stretch to assume he had a similar size vehicle to the bat pod inside of it?.

I don't know, It still sounds very nitpicky to me, especially since that shot at 2:48 could very well be him steering away in the ejected cockpit as the Bat is not shown flying to the front except for that brief shot before.

And yes I do think Jude Law was a better villain than Bane, he was kind of like Captain Marvel's evil life coach, and more importantly I understood every word that he said and didn't want to laugh every time he spoke. If you find that silly, you're entitled to your opinion.

That's pretty weak reasoning considering "Yon-Rogg" is the textbook definition of bland MCU villain. Say what you will about Bane but at least he's memorable. Honestly, Bane is more memorable than the entire Captain Marvel Movie.

 

[Batmannerism]

I didn't catch that originally so Hat's off to you I guess. It stand still stands to reason that Batman did eject at some point after the explosion and that when we see him in the last close-up before it cut's to the timer counting to zero, He's ejected in a separate vehicle and was far away from the blast radius.

I mean the Bat is roughly the size of the tumbler, is it really that much of a stretch to assume he had a similar size vehicle to the bat pod inside of it?.

Yes it is a stretch, because the Tumbler contained a stripped down motorcycle, a vehicle which drives on the ground. That's not a big deal.

The Bat might contain another vehicle, but whatever it is, it has to fly - which means it needs an engine that can generate a lot of thrust and most likely wings to create lift - and it has to eject and fly on it's own while the Bat is travelling at great speed - possibly supersonic speed.It wouldn't have needed wings if it was a helicopter but I don't think a helicopter that small would work ( I'm not an aeronautics engineer, so feel free to check that out).

A simple ejection chair or even a jetpack ( or Batman's glider cape ) might work but Batman appears to be inside an enclosed canopy ( as there isn't a raging wind) in his final cockpit shot.

With regards to Bane, it's an opinion, there's no reasoning involved - you see a thing, you like it or you don't. I didn't like the voice, if you did more power to you or as Bane said in TDKR....

SF Captain " I'll die before I talk"

Bane: "Mumble, mumble, mumble, mumble."

 

[Batmannerism]

Okay, now that we've bashed TDKR to death for thr Nth + 1 time, let's change it up.

IMUO Thor the Dark World is not a bad film, and better than the first Thor movie. Its entertaining, and while Christopher Eccleston is disappointing as Malekith, the Dark Elves are quite creepy and their tech has a neat design aesthetic. Also Hemsworth and Hiddleston have great chemistry, and their scenes together are a treat. I liked the Star Wars kind of feel to Adgard and the spaceships ( complete with cloaking and devices).

There's enough good to well outweigh the bad - dont know why this film gets so much hate, it's way better than Iron Man 2 !

 

[Captain Tired]

Oh that last point fits me in nicely: I like Iron Man 2 a great deal and have always preferred it to the first.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Yeah I have some issues with Iron Man 2 but I still liked it a lot. Now, Iron Man 3 is bland and forgettable. It’s tied with TIH for my least favorite Marvel movie.

Thor: TDW was mediocre, though the banter between Loki and Thor was good. Portman and Eccleston totally phoned it in though.

 

[DyeLorean]

Okay, now that we've bashed TDKR to death for thr Nth + 1 time, let's change it up.

IMUO Thor the Dark World is not a bad film, and better than the first Thor movie. Its entertaining, and while Christopher Eccleston is disappointing as Malekith, the Dark Elves are quite creepy and their tech has a neat design aesthetic. Also Hemsworth and Hiddleston have great chemistry, and their scenes together are a treat. I liked the Star Wars kind of feel to Adgard and the spaceships ( complete with cloaking and devices).

There's enough good to well outweigh the bad - dont know why this film gets so much hate, it's way better than Iron Man 2 !

And the final action sequence with all the realms on top of each other made for some really inventive stuff. They should've gone even crazier, but that wasn't the Marvel Studios we know today.

 

[Web-Head]

Okay, now that we've bashed TDKR to death for thr Nth + 1 time, let's change it up.

IMUO Thor the Dark World is not a bad film, and better than the first Thor movie. Its entertaining, and while Christopher Eccleston is disappointing as Malekith, the Dark Elves are quite creepy and their tech has a neat design aesthetic. Also Hemsworth and Hiddleston have great chemistry, and their scenes together are a treat. I liked the Star Wars kind of feel to Adgard and the spaceships ( complete with cloaking and devices).

There's enough good to well outweigh the bad - dont know why this film gets so much hate, it's way better than Iron Man 2 !

It used to be on the bottom of my MCU ranking, but after I did my most recent MCU marathon, it's still in the bottom 3, but ahead of Iron Man 2 and Incredible Hulk. Iron Man 2 feels like it was rushed and is quite the mess.

 

[Web-Head]

Rise of the Planet of the Apes is the best of the new trilogy.

 

[CJ]

Rise of the Planet of the Apes is the best of the new trilogy.

I agree. The other two were kinda boring.

 

[Flint Marko]

On that note I found the third Reeves Ape movie to be pretty overrated. For me it’d go

1. Dawn (awesome)
2. Rise (also awesome)
3. War (fine)

 

[Captain Tired]

I'm so glad to find others who thought Rise was the best. I watched Dawn on a plane (so it's probably not the best or most fair first impression of a movie, I grant you) and it just put me to sleep. I was so incredibly unenthused by that movie. And it's a shame because I really loved Rise.

 

[-JKR-]

I think Superman Lives would have been a true gem of a movie and Nic Cage would have been good in the role.

 

[Captain Tired]

I think Superman Lives would have been a true gem of a movie and Nic Cage would have been good in the role.

Agreed. No arguments from me. Would love to have seen his take on Superman.

 

[Batmannerism]

I think Superman Lives would have been a true gem of a movie and Nic Cage would have been good in the role.

Agreed. No arguments from me. Would love to have seen his take on Superman.

Not sure if I agree- but I think the best role for Cage in a cbm would have been as the Joker - he's perfect for it ! Nobody gets crazy like Cage.

 

[Captain Tired]

Manhunter is honestly the only Hannibal film I actually like.

Also I much prefer Cox's take on the role to Hopkins' and Mikkelsen's.

 

[Holiday]

Manhunter is honestly the only Hannibal film I actually like.

Also I much prefer Cox's take on the role to Hopkins' and Mikkelsen's.

I watch this one a lot. I think William Peterson is excellent and I enjoy the ending when he pieces the case together. Lots of good supporting performances too.

 

[DyeLorean]

I like Beverly Hills Cop III a lot. Granted, I haven't seen it in years, but I saw it multiple times when I was younger.

 

[Guts]

I don't know if this is unpopular, but I'm doing a marathon of the Star Trek movies and I feel like James Horner was definitely had the best music in the series. Also in terms of quality TOS era movies> Kelvin timeline> TNG era movies.

 

[Deck Rickard]

I never saw any of the TNG movies except Generations and that one sucked. I started to watch the one with Tom Hardy once but got bored. I’ve heard First Contact is great and I’ve always meant to check it out but (unpopular opinion) I always found the TNG cast dull. Patrick Stewart is a much better actor (and probably a better person) than William Shatner, but I dunno... Kirk is just cool, man. And comparing Spock and Riker (or maybe Spock and Data would be a better comparison) is like comparing filet mignon from Morton’s with that value meal from McDonalds with the two s***ty little cheeseburgers.

 

[Batmannerism]

I never saw any of the TNG movies except Generations and that one sucked. I started to watch the one with Tom Hardy once but got bored. I’ve heard First Contact is great and I’ve always meant to check it out but (unpopular opinion) I always found the TNG cast dull. Patrick Stewart is a much better actor (and probably a better person) than William Shatner, but I dunno... Kirk is just cool, man. And comparing Spock and Riker (or maybe Spock and Data would be a better comparison) is like comparing filet mignon from Morton’s with that value meal from McDonalds with the two s***ty little cheeseburgers.

Totally disagree but love the McDonalds metaphor.

Personally, TNG took a while to grow on me , the first 2 seasons have a lot of crappy episodes but it really gets going in season 3 ( probably because Gene Rodenberry had a lot less to do with it).

I never knew why they kept Riker around, he's kind of the crew member who is redundant, because everyone else's specialties make up for him. He was kind of Kirk type ladies Man in the first couple of seasons - I think the real reason was that the cast got along really well ( unlike the original series cast) and they just liked having him around.

Kirk is cool, but also a bit of a *****e bag - kind of like Shatner, not a bad guy when you meet him but few of his costars are complimentary. He's not a terrible person, just probably deeply insecure which manifests as what appears to be a massive ego and desire to hog the spotlight. He's had some massive ups and downs in his career, it makes interesting reading.

When I met him he told a story about Christopher Plummer, and how he wasn't a very nice guy- which coming from Shatner probably means that Plummer is probably a massive jerk.

Haven't met Stewart, but I would agree he's a better actor than Shatner ( have you seen Logan ?) The Picard character has a lot of depth to him.

If you're going to watch First Contact my suggestion to you is watch 3 particular episodes of TNG ( The Best of Both Worlds part 1 and part 2, then Family, which is the next episode) and then watch First Contact - because it gives it some meaningful context. Without the background First Contact still works, but it helps.

As a film on it's own merits First Contact is far and away the best TNG film, if you didn't like Generations ( which isn't that bad IMO) don't bother with Insurrection and don't waste your time going back to Nemesis - it should have been an epic send off, but really just comes off as crap, kind of like Batman v Superman - by the end you're just glad it's over. Even Tom Hardy is pretty average in it.

Cheers.

 

[Schlosser85]

Tom Hardy definitely got better as an actor when he reemerged a few years later and broke out with Bronson and Inception. In his defense, he was green out of drama school when he was cast in Nemesis.

 

[Jordacar]

The Trek movies are famously hit-or-miss. The way I see it, the TOS movies, besides reviving the brand for a new audience, got to serve as a send-off to a canceled series by rounding out the old crew's adventures. On the other hand, TNG had a solid run of 7 seasons that came to its own satisfying conclusion, so comparatively the movies didn't really have as much to add.

The only crucial TNG movie is First Contact. Besides being cool in itself, it also set the tone for a lot of Berman & Braga's work on the franchise going forward, from Voyager all the way thru Enterprise.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Totally disagree but love the McDonalds metaphor.

Personally, TNG took a while to grow on me , the first 2 seasons have a lot of crappy episodes but it really gets going in season 3 ( probably because Gene Rodenberry had a lot less to do with it).

I never knew why they kept Riker around, he's kind of the crew member who is redundant, because everyone else's specialties make up for him. He was kind of Kirk type ladies Man in the first couple of seasons - I think the real reason was that the cast got along really well ( unlike the original series cast) and they just liked having him around.

Kirk is cool, but also a bit of a *****e bag - kind of like Shatner, not a bad guy when you meet him but few of his costars are complimentary. He's not a terrible person, just probably deeply insecure which manifests as what appears to be a massive ego and desire to hog the spotlight. He's had some massive ups and downs in his career, it makes interesting reading.

When I met him he told a story about Christopher Plummer, and how he wasn't a very nice guy- which coming from Shatner probably means that Plummer is probably a massive jerk.

Haven't met Stewart, but I would agree he's a better actor than Shatner ( have you seen Logan ?) The Picard character has a lot of depth to him.

If you're going to watch First Contact my suggestion to you is watch 3 particular episodes of TNG ( The Best of Both Worlds part 1 and part 2, then Family, which is the next episode) and then watch First Contact - because it gives it some meaningful context. Without the background First Contact still works, but it helps.

As a film on it's own merits First Contact is far and away the best TNG film, if you didn't like Generations ( which isn't that bad IMO) don't bother with Insurrection and don't waste your time going back to Nemesis - it should have been an epic send off, but really just comes off as crap, kind of like Batman v Superman - by the end you're just glad it's over. Even Tom Hardy is pretty average in it.

Cheers.

Thanks, yeah although I never watched much TNG, I did see the Borg episodes and I always thought they were cool antagonists so I’ll have to give First Contact a shot. That’s cool that you met Shatner. I’m sure he’s an interesting guy to have a conversation with. His career has certainly been all over the place but I have to say that I respect the guy for just hanging in there so long and trying different things. He was especially great on Boston Legal, back when that was on. It helps that he doesn’t mind poking fun at himself sometimes.

And yeah, Riker is just the worst. At the beginning of the show, he just seemed like a diet version of Kirk (I remember a Mad Magazine parody of TNG back then where they called him Commander Rekirk) and then he just sort of morphed into the boring guy that was just kinda there.