The 52 '52' Spinoffs, Which Ones & Why?

[SenseiofCheese]

Yeah, I went back to my copy of the Tower of Babel TPB, and if anything, it re-enforces your idea, trusty-sidekick. There really is no mention of what Ra's' plan with Bruce's parents and the Pit were, other than to piss him off.

But I do agree with you on wishing that Adam is hallucinating and Isis is not back. When I did see her revived my first thought was indeed "Wait, the Lazarus Pit can do that?".
All in all I'm not so enthused about this whole Black Mary thing, since I was disappointed that so soon after Black Adam gets his powers back he gives them up again.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't think the threat was to bring them back to life. I really do think it was to further piss off Bats.

Wouldn't it bother you that someone digged up your dead parent's graves, and then threatened to toss them somewhere where you couldn't followed unless you died? The fact alone that he violated the graves and made that threat is all about disrespect. And since Batman is Batman because of his parent's death...I'd say it would be 34987543298754 times worse for Bats to experience this; it's a perfect threat to use against him. I think that's a lot worse of a threat than "possibly him doing so to bring them back". Batman knowing that he can never visit them in their grave would be far worse. He wouldn't be able to pay his respects the same; imagine not being able to do so.

It's the same concept as not giving someone a proper burial, but worse because it's his parents. Could bringing them back insane do some damage? Yes. But eventually they could regain their insanity. The shock of them being back would do good damage...but I doubt Ra's would do this because eventually they could be back to normal.

But I think long term never being able to pay his respects to his dead parents would be worse. Each passing year, that "anniversary" would be far worse to live through than just his parent's original death "anniversary".

You make it sound like he was digging their graves up himself and touching their casket or something. Why would he feel a need to hop into the Lazarus Pit after them? If Ra's dropped the Waynes into the Lazarus Pit and it couldn't resurrect them, wouldn't he basically just be moving their grave site? Batman could go to that Lazarus Pit and pay his respects. Big deal.

If Ra's resurrected his parents, on the other hand, Bruce Wayne would have his parents back. As you point out, his parents' deaths were what made him Batman, and Batman is a very big part of who he is now. Getting them back would shatter him to his very core and force him to rethink everything about himself. Plus, it would be the ultimate sacrilege--death is a natural part of life and his parents died. Plus x 2, if they were resurrected, they'd be liable to die again. Imagine how much that would pain Bruce, losing his parents a second time. All of those possibilities seem far worse to me than disfiguring a couple of corpses or functionally trading one grave site for another. It just doesn't make much sense to me for Ra's to dangle them over a Lazarus Pit if all they'd do if he released them is sink.

I thought she wasn't "dead" yet, and was restored as she was dying.

To my knowledge, Batgirl was stone-cold dead. Mad Dog killed her.

Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is. The thing's called a Lazarus Pit. Why shouldn't it live up to its name and be able to resurrect the dead?

 

[trustyside-kick]

You make it sound like he was digging their graves up himself and touching their casket or something. Why would he feel a need to hop into the Lazarus Pit after them? If Ra's dropped the Waynes into the Lazarus Pit and it couldn't resurrect them, wouldn't he basically just be moving their grave site? Batman could go to that Lazarus Pit and pay his respects. Big deal.

If Ra's resurrected his parents, on the other hand, Bruce Wayne would have his parents back. As you point out, his parents' deaths were what made him Batman, and Batman is a very big part of who he is now. Getting them back would shatter him to his very core and force him to rethink everything about himself. Plus, it would be the ultimate sacrilege--death is a natural part of life and his parents died. Plus x 2, if they were resurrected, they'd be liable to die again. Imagine how much that would pain Bruce, losing his parents a second time. All of those possibilities seem far worse to me than disfiguring a couple of corpses or functionally trading one grave site for another. It just doesn't make much sense to me for Ra's to dangle them over a Lazarus Pit if all they'd do if he released them is sink.

You're failing to see it all from his point of view. Their death traumatized him. Their bodies being moved to "another grave site" as you like to call it, would be a big deal. Put yourself in his shoes. Not like he would be "oh, I'll just mourn here instead". If their death triggered the monster that he is of the night, and if their death leaves that much of a permanent mark that he has been this monster for like 12 years...doing anything with his parent's dead bodies is enough to injure him greatly emotionally and mentally; especially what I think was Ra's intentions.

To my knowledge, Batgirl was stone-cold dead. Mad Dog killed her.

Frankly, I don't see what the big deal is. The thing's called a Lazarus Pit. Why shouldn't it live up to its name and be able to resurrect the dead?

My issue is that because before, it's always been said it restores life to the dying, not the dead. That makes it too easy for characters to come back to life. And don't we as fans always diss comics for their character revivals? I'd rather have something more thought out and well written to explain why a character is back or came back to life.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

You're failing to see it all from his point of view. Their death traumatized him. Their bodies being moved to "another grave site" as you like to call it, would be a big deal. Put yourself in his shoes. Not like he would be "oh, I'll just mourn here instead". If their death triggered the monster that he is of the night, and if their death leaves that much of a permanent mark that he has been this monster for like 12 years...doing anything with his parent's dead bodies is enough to injure him greatly emotionally and mentally; especially what I think was Ra's intentions.

Well, yeah, we agree on that. But Ra's had already desecrated their graves and corpses by that point just by digging them up and moving them to the Pit. As you said, their death is the single most profoundly affecting moment of his life. Put yourself in his shoes and imagine some madman undoing it all just to torment you. You'd have your parents back, but it'd shatter everything you know and think about yourself; it'd rob you of your identity and tarnish your parents' memory all at the same time.

What if something went wrong, too? The Lazarus Pits aren't perfect; his parents could come back as mindless zombies or never make it out of the balls-to-the-wall crazy phase or something. There are too many horrifying prospects for how resurrecting Bruce's parents could go wrong to name, really. Bruce is the master of seeing all the angles; I find it far more likely that both he and Ra's would've considered all of that and found resurrecting them a far scarier idea for Bruce than just desecrating their corpses further, which is why Ra's brought them to the Lazarus Pit in the first place, at least in my mind.

My issue is that because before, it's always been said it restores life to the dying, not the dead. That makes it too easy for characters to come back to life. And don't we as fans always diss comics for their character revivals? I'd rather have something more thought out and well written to explain why a character is back or came back to life.

You're not seriously claiming that having a Lazarus Pit that lives up to its name would somehow make character resurrections "too easy," are you? Character resurrections already are and have always been easy. There are only like 2 or 3 functioning Lazarus Pits in the world now, aren't there? I'd say all your magic practitioners, reality alterers, denizens of Heaven and Hell, mystic deities, flukes of the universe, soulless clones, and the thousand other ways you could resurrect a character are making it far easier than the Lazarus Pits, no matter what the Pits can do.

 

[Hellstormer]

I'm gonna stick with Booster and Metal Men. Booster so I can see the other worlds and Metal Men because Lead's awesome and the art looks cool. I'm really hoping everything else is traded especially Search for ray Palmer.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

The Ray Palmer-related stuff seems to be a huge part of the event. I'm sure it'll be collected.

 

[Hellstormer]

The Ray Palmer-related stuff seems to be a huge part of the event. I'm sure it'll be collected.

By itself?

 

[BrianWilly]

Each Lazarus Pit can only be used once by one person, so it's not like it's an endless font of resurrection anyway.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Each Lazarus Pit can only be used once by one person, so it's not like it's an endless font of resurrection anyway.

Actually there are only three Lazarus Pits left and one of them can be used an unlimited number of times. It used to be in Nyssa's posession, but it's most likely in Talia's now.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

By itself?

That I don't know about.

Nice avatar, by the way. Hadrian was awesome, especially in Wildcats v3.0.

 

[SenseiofCheese]

So I just read 52 Aftermath: The Four Horsemen, the first issue.
It was on okay issue, pretty decent art. I'll be picking this up, definitely, but it didn't sweep me off my feet.

I do love seeing Supes and Bats interact without their suits on, I.E seeing Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne interact.

 

[BrianWilly]

52 Aftermath: The Four Horsemen
Now this is sociopolitical commentary done right. I had to suppress a giggle at Cale threatening the Chinese with supplying aid to Taiwan instead. See, that there's subtlety and skill, which pervades the rest of the comic as well. Which is helpful, considering this is basically one large commentary on Middle-Eastern affairs with, y'know, big DC superheroes thrown in. Giffen has been doing great work for Marvel lately, and it's nice to see that DC hasn't quite alienated him completely with their wanton slaughter of JLIers.

The one thing I immediately liked about this was the fact that it showed Clark and Bruce doing their civilian jobs, and doing it well. We've been lapsing into the silver age lately with how Clark handles journalism; ie, clumsily and as a fifth-priority. It's about time someone other than Rucka remembered that this is a Pulitzer-winning reporter and novelist whose work is taught in college universities.

Speaking of Rucka and how glad I am that Giffen seems to be a fan, I've been looking forward to Veronica Cale and Wonder Woman's reunion for a long time now. I thought that her portrayal in 52 was...passable, but nothing particularly of note. Here, we get around to exploring her a bit more, and it's generally good. Her interaction with Diana is true to both of their characters, something that's become quite rare. I twitched in irritation at Diana calling herself a Princess...though I guess under NuDC continuity, if Hippolyta was never abolished the monarchy then...I guess...Diana is technically still a princess. I can’t fault Giffen for being continuitous. Besides, it could permaybehaps be Diana scoffing at Cale calling herself a “doctor.” Permaybehaps.

The depiction of the Four Horsemen themselves is quite effective. That may be due to the fact that they themselves were pretty awesome villains to begin with, but once again I have to applaud Giffen on his subtleties. As we saw in 52, they are one of the truly legitimate big bad evil threats of the DCU and here we hear they haven't even shown their true power yet. The Big Three themselves have been hanging back a bit lately as far as their interactions and working together and all that, and it's gonna be nice to see them bust out with the thrilling heroics on their own terms here.

I'm not too crazy about the art, though it does its job. I dunno, the crazy cheekbones and anorexia that a lot of these characters are having is not the most...attractive thing I've seen.

(8 out of 10)

 

[Super_Ludacris]

I Still need to finish off reading 52. I have all the issues plus the World War 3 saga and have started on Countdown. But I havent had time to sit down and read em all...

 

[Prognosticator]

I Still need to finish off reading 52. I have all the issues plus the World War 3 saga and have started on Countdown. But I havent had time to sit down and read em all...

You sound a lot like me! I'm always way behind in my reading, and consequently I don't get to jump in on all of the heavy-hitting commentary these guys offer up.

 

[Super_Ludacris]

You sound a lot like me! I'm always way behind in my reading, and consequently I don't get to jump in on all of the heavy-hitting commentary these guys offer up.

I go every week to the shop and am like " you know I really shouldnt bother picking something since I still have a ton of graphic novels and comics to finish reading." but I still do.

Last I read was like 52 week 18 or something...

 

[Prognosticator]

52 Aftermath: The Four Horsemen
Now this is sociopolitical commentary done right. I had to suppress a giggle at Cale threatening the Chinese with supplying aid to Taiwan instead. See, that there's subtlety and skill, which pervades the rest of the comic as well. Which is helpful, considering this is basically one large commentary on Middle-Eastern affairs with, y'know, big DC superheroes thrown in. Giffen has been doing great work for Marvel lately, and it's nice to see that DC hasn't quite alienated him completely with their wanton slaughter of JLIers.

The one thing I immediately liked about this was the fact that it showed Clark and Bruce doing their civilian jobs, and doing it well. We've been lapsing into the silver age lately with how Clark handles journalism; ie, clumsily and as a fifth-priority. It's about time someone other than Rucka remembered that this is a Pulitzer-winning reporter and novelist whose work is taught in college universities.

Speaking of Rucka and how glad I am that Giffen seems to be a fan, I've been looking forward to Veronica Cale and Wonder Woman's reunion for a long time now. I thought that her portrayal in 52 was...passable, but nothing particularly of note. Here, we get around to exploring her a bit more, and it's generally good. Her interaction with Diana is true to both of their characters, something that's become quite rare. I twitched in irritation at Diana calling herself a Princess...though I guess under NuDC continuity, if Hippolyta was never abolished the monarchy then...I guess...Diana is technically still a princess. I can’t fault Giffen for being continuitous. Besides, it could permaybehaps be Diana scoffing at Cale calling herself a “doctor.” Permaybehaps.

The depiction of the Four Horsemen themselves is quite effective. That may be due to the fact that they themselves were pretty awesome villains to begin with, but once again I have to applaud Giffen on his subtleties. As we saw in 52, they are one of the truly legitimate big bad evil threats of the DCU and here we hear they haven't even shown their true power yet. The Big Three themselves have been hanging back a bit lately as far as their interactions and working together and all that, and it's gonna be nice to see them bust out with the thrilling heroics on their own terms here.

I'm not too crazy about the art, though it does its job. I dunno, the crazy cheekbones and anorexia that a lot of these characters are having is not the most...attractive thing I've seen.

(8 out of 10)

WOW! A positive DC comic review in 2007, I must be on the Bizarro Hype??

 

[Super_Ludacris]

I thought JLA and Dini's run on Batman were good. Still dont know about All-Star Superman...

 

[TheCorpulent1]

WOW! A positive DC comic review in 2007, I must be on the Bizarro Hype??

Well, The Four Horsemen was a pretty good read. There were a couple of elements I wasn't crazy about, like Clark's characterization ("Oh, gee, I guess I've been bitten through my indestructible skin. Eh, why worry?"), but overall it was a solid read. I also happen to like Oliffe's art, although I have to agree with BW on the seeming atrophy/anorexia of certain characters.

 

[BrianWilly]

It's the work of FAMINE. Guys I just figured out teh secret.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

zomg visual subtext!

 

[Cobblepot]

I'm gettin tired of these huge arcs. It aint even fan anymore to read them, there's so much catching up to do. It's like missing an eps. of 24! Where are the times comics we're like The Bold!

 

[Prognosticator]

So how many more new spinoffs have come out since the last time we covered this topic? 20? 30?

 

[sinewave]

i like the idea of kyle rayner, jason todd and donna troy teaming up, except for the contrived love-triangle subplot. they make a good team and i'm looking forward to their further adventures throughout the multi-verse.

 

[yenaled]

I'm really enjoying Black Adam. It's gruesomely terrific and I'm enjoying the follow up and mirror to Ralph's storyline in 52.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, issue #2 was as good as #1. I'm confused, though. I thought "sorry" was supposed to be his new word, according to Countdown, yet he says it here and nothing happens.