Age of Ultron The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - - - - - - Part 26

[ctsketch]

So the hammer reads minds? That's very possible, but it doesn't do whatever Thor commands. It clearly has a top speed, and doesn't float in air casually, but he puts it on something.

I don't think they're going to retcon Thor 1 just because Dr. Strange does magic or Scarlet Witch is a miracle. But hey, maybe they will, I'm sure a lot of people who didn't like the multiple allusions to Clarke's Third Law will be very happy with the retcon, almost as many as liked Return of the King.

It's not reconning anything... Asgard has magic and science....you think Odin whispering to the hammer and enchanting it magically is science? You think Heimdall being able to hear and see everything in the 9 realms is science? You think Fandrall calling Loki a master of magic was jest?

 

[Ghostcrow13]

So the hammer reads minds? That's very possible, but it doesn't do whatever Thor commands. It clearly has a top speed, and doesn't float in air casually, but he puts it on something.

I don't think they're going to retcon Thor 1 just because Dr. Strange does magic or Scarlet Witch is a miracle. But hey, maybe they will, I'm sure a lot of people who didn't like the multiple allusions to Clarke's Third Law will be very happy with the retcon, almost as many as liked Return of the King.

I wouldn't consider it retcon, Mjolnir has never been stated as technology, it's not like in a movie they've said 'Mjolnir is an AI that when activated by a worthy fingerprint it follows the command of the owner of the fingerprint'

Plus with Clarke's 3rd Law it could be reasoned that Jane as a physicist is trying to understand Magic through science, which is what Stark would do as well.

But I can't see science explaining how Mjolnir works, or Odins powers or Lokis

 

[TheVision]

Pretty sure Lokis hologram illusion trick isnt magic, thats def some kind of technology. If so, Mjolnir is based on science too. Lets be more clear, its science and magic mixed together. The huge transportation device they use on the BiFrost isnt magic, its clearly similar to what they'd use on Star Trek. Remember when Odin whispers to Mjolnir and that symbol pops up? Its almost like a device to lock it up. The worthiness aspect is probably on the magic side. It can detect someones inner being.

 

[DrCosmic]

Uh, yes, that was exactly my point. They use magic, they just don't distinguish it from technology.

And because they don't, we don't need to either.

It's not reconning anything... Asgard has magic and science....you think Odin whispering to the hammer and enchanting it magically is science? You think Heimdall being able to hear and see everything in the 9 realms is science? You think Fandrall calling Loki a master of magic was jest?

To say that Asgardian Magic and Asgardian Science are not one and the same would be a retcon. So, if Odin can "enchant something magically" without "manipulating it scientifically," then Thor doesn't know what he's talking about and the movie is misleading by invoking Clarke's Third Law. Which is possible, perhaps Thor is just a poorly made film that accidentally forgot to say magic is not science.

Fandrall using the word "magic" is interesting. Perhaps Fandral, like humans, doesn't understand how Loki does what he does. Not sure if Fandral was joking or wrong or what, all I know is that science and magic are one and the same. If that's no longer true, if there are enchantments or abilities that are not science, then that is a retcon.

I wouldn't consider it retcon, Mjolnir has never been stated as technology, it's not like in a movie they've said 'Mjolnir is an AI that when activated by a worthy fingerprint it follows the command of the owner of the fingerprint'

Plus with Clarke's 3rd Law it could be reasoned that Jane as a physicist is trying to understand Magic through science, which is what Stark would do as well.

But I can't see science explaining how Mjolnir works, or Odins powers or Lokis

If it had been just Darcy and Jane using Clarke's third law, we could say the film was simply misleading by having it's leads exposit incorrect uncontested conclusions. However, since Thor, who would know, also says that what we call magic and Asgardian science are one and the same, then that means... they're the same. You can't have one without the other because they're the same. Either Mjonir is Asgardian magic and Asgardian Science or it's neither

Our modern tech could not make a Mjolnir, sure, we'd rely on things like fingerprint scanners, however, imagine, something as "simple" as a miniaturized Starship Enterprise, capable of scanning events at vast distances and evaluating them against the protocols, such as worthy, in it's database, manipulating it's own gravitational fields and correctly identifying individuals at immense distances. Just that much technology could duplicate Mjolnir's effects, to say nothing of a society that makes Starfleet look like the Flinstones.

 

[Lorus]

It's been made pretty explicit in the Thor films that the Asgardians simply use the vernacular associated with 'magic' to describe natural laws and concepts (what we would call science). The aforementioned 'soul forge' scene demonstrated this with both parties understanding the same concept but describing it differently.

Furthermore, everyone asking questions such as 'how could Odin enchant Mjolnir with science?' need to reevaluate Clarke's third law, because that's precisely the point. We can't comprehend how science could produce such a result because our current understanding of the universe can't explain it. The Asgardians understand more than us though, so their concept of 'science' does allow for such things.

 

[TheVision]

Asgardian tech/science just works on a different dimension than Earth based science I guess.

 

[Silvermoon]

I know we've seen some of these pics, but did we see all of them? (even if we have, they're awesome enough that reposting shouldn't be an issue, right? )

https://***********/AgentM/status/494501327872212992

https://***********/AgentM/status/494501699051331585

 

[TheVision]

Its so awesome ULTRON starts out as a junky batch of parts. The HULKBUSTER looks radical. Thats gonna be amazing to watch.

 

[ctsketch]

Pretty sure Lokis hologram illusion trick isnt magic, thats def some kind of technology. If so, Mjolnir is based on science too. Lets be more clear, its science and magic mixed together. The huge transportation device they use on the BiFrost isnt magic, its clearly similar to what they'd use on Star Trek. Remember when Odin whispers to Mjolnir and that symbol pops up? Its almost like a device to lock it up. The worthiness aspect is probably on the magic side. It can detect someones inner being.

really because Loki learned that "trick" from Frigga...if it's just tech why would a mother need to teach it to her son?

 

[Dr. Evil]

Asgardian tech/science just works on a different dimension than Earth based science I guess.

 

[ctsketch]

And because they don't, we don't need to either.



To say that Asgardian Magic and Asgardian Science are not one and the same would be a retcon. So, if Odin can "enchant something magically" without "manipulating it scientifically," then Thor doesn't know what he's talking about and the movie is misleading by invoking Clarke's Third Law. Which is possible, perhaps Thor is just a poorly made film that accidentally forgot to say magic is not science.

Fandrall using the word "magic" is interesting. Perhaps Fandral, like humans, doesn't understand how Loki does what he does. Not sure if Fandral was joking or wrong or what, all I know is that science and magic are one and the same. If that's no longer true, if there are enchantments or abilities that are not science, then that is a retcon.



If it had been just Darcy and Jane using Clarke's third law, we could say the film was simply misleading by having it's leads exposit incorrect uncontested conclusions. However, since Thor, who would know, also says that what we call magic and Asgardian science are one and the same, then that means... they're the same. You can't have one without the other because they're the same. Either Mjonir is Asgardian magic and Asgardian Science or it's neither

Our modern tech could not make a Mjolnir, sure, we'd rely on things like fingerprint scanners, however, imagine, something as "simple" as a miniaturized Starship Enterprise, capable of scanning events at vast distances and evaluating them against the protocols, such as worthy, in it's database, manipulating it's own gravitational fields and correctly identifying individuals at immense distances. Just that much technology could duplicate Mjolnir's effects, to say nothing of a society that makes Starfleet look like the Flinstones.

I see you just glossed over the whole Heimdall magic site thing....or and Loki being able to hide from it....oh and Odin making Loki appear asgardian

 

[Ghostcrow13]

If Mjolnir is tech, then it should be able to be hacked, surely someone in Asgard could remove Odins enchantment.

If Loki's illusions are tech, then why has no one else got them, why can't Thor get whatever tech Loki has and use it himself. How could Loki cast illusions in his prison cell.

How does Heimdall work why can no one else do if what he can do if it is science. And how would that science work?

Heck in the AoU comic con footage, Thor says 'I have a simpler explanation, you are all unworthy' Why doesn't he just explain how Mjolnir works to them.

 

[DrCosmic]

It's been made pretty explicit in the Thor films that the Asgardians simply use the vernacular associated with 'magic' to describe natural laws and concepts (what we would call science). The aforementioned 'soul forge' scene demonstrated this with both parties understanding the same concept but describing it differently.

Furthermore, everyone asking questions such as 'how could Odin enchant Mjolnir with science?' need to reevaluate Clarke's third law, because that's precisely the point. We can't comprehend how science could produce such a result because our current understanding of the universe can't explain it. The Asgardians understand more than us though, so their concept of 'science' does allow for such things.

Exactly. I think a misunderstanding of Clarke's Third Law is what's happening, and that's understandable, because it kinda takes the fun out of magic. The concept that if we go to an isolated place we might be giving the same speech to some charming local girl as Thor did. The idea that, if you understand the laws of magic, then you have it down to a science. So it's really just science, and you can name whatever the different magical forces and rules you discover the same way scientists have always named the rules and laws they discovered.

 

[TheVision]

Note: Regarding Asgard and its sciency magic I have no clue what Im talking about. TY

 

[Silvermoon]

BTW, if this whole thing started because of my quip of Odin having admin rights... my apologies ... i really was just kidding with the use of that terminology (though the discussion spawned IS interesting to read).

Personally, I'm of the mind that Asgard has actual magic and that they use it as commonplace as we do science and that that's what Thor meant by his statement.

 

[The Endless]

I don't think there is any need to over think it. Saying magic and science are the same is just a hand wave moment to make it easier for people to buy Thor and Asgard existing in the same universe as Stark and his tech.

Just roll with it as long as there are no clear contradictions.

 

[TheVision]

 

[ctsketch]

Exactly. I think a misunderstanding of Clarke's Third Law is what's happening, and that's understandable, because it kinda takes the fun out of magic. The concept that if we go to an isolated place we might be giving the same speech to some charming local girl as Thor did. The idea that, if you understand the laws of magic, then you have it down to a science. So it's really just science, and you can name whatever the different magical forces and rules you discover the same way scientists have always named the rules and laws they discovered.

I agree

 

[Ghostcrow13]

I don't think there is any need to over think it. Saying magic and science are the same is just a hand wave moment to make it easier for people to buy Thor and Asgard existing in the same universe as Stark and his tech.

Just roll with it as long as there are no clear contradictions.

Yeah I can believe it is Magic and someone else can think it is science until there is a definite answer.

But I know for me I'd rather not and try and think about what kind of science allows Heimdall to see and hear across all of the 9 realms t:

 

[DrCosmic]

really because Loki learned that "trick" from Frigga...if it's just tech why would a mother need to teach it to her son?

Who said it was tech? All we know is it's Asgardian science, and science does need to be taught.

I see you just glossed over the whole Heimdall magic site thing....or and Loki being able to hide from it....oh and Odin making Loki appear asgardian

I did gloss over it. I could come up with technical explanations for all those things, but they may not be the actual explanations. All we know for sure is that there are scientific explanations that are beyond us. And really it'd just be a lot of Star Trek references. Q can do all those things in his sleep by "just doing the math" thanks to evolution.

If Mjolnir is tech, then it should be able to be hacked, surely someone in Asgard could remove Odins enchantment.

If Loki's illusions are tech, then why has no one else got them, why can't Thor get whatever tech Loki has and use it himself. How could Loki cast illusions in his prison cell.

How does Heimdall work why can no one else do if what he can do if it is science. And how would that science work?

Heck in the AoU comic con footage, Thor says 'I have a simpler explanation, you are all unworthy' Why doesn't he just explain how Mjolnir works to them.

Not all computers are hackable. If something is hardwired or not networked, there is no hacking to be done. Plus, we don't know if it's actually a "computer" or simply something "more like a computer than anything else." We use binary, what if you can't even mess with Mjolnir if you know what base it's using out of an arbitrarily large series of numbers? (Edit: If the hammer can identify Thor at interstellar distances, how could you hack it? Even if it is possible, it knows if you're Odin or not.)

As before, the statement was that science = magic, not that magic = tech. So Loki and Heimdall's abilities may indeed be biological, or a combination of equipment and biology. They could be based on their attachment to 5th diemenional subspace cyborg organisms. We don't know. We don't really care, do we?

(Edit: Heimdall has a four dimensional space manifold in his contact lenses that allow him to view anywhere by folding space right in front of his eyes, and his hyper evolved visual and spatial recognition centers allow him to casually process all of this information quickly. Loki has learned to use the light manipulating bacteria that all Asgardians carry to create illusions, it is a very difficult trick that requires extreme focus and a lost art form. Or not. -shrug-)

And just because it's science doesn't mean it's not ALSO what we call magic. Simply... beyond us. We can imagine what science might be involved in making such things happen, but we have absolutely no idea how to make that happen, or if our ideas about how to make it happen are feasible.

So when Thor explains that they are not worthy... he *is* explaining how the hammer works. It will not let you move it if you're unworthy. What more explanation could he possibly give?

Think about it. If I get hit with a car, and you ask me what happened, am I going to talk about the combustion engine, or am I going to tell you about what the driver did wrong? That's how we explain things that 'just work,' we don't explain how they work we talk about the users involved because the details of all the science/magic around us just aren't relevant. (Edit: There's also the possibility that Thor doesn't know how everything works exactly. He's not a scientist magician, after all.

 

[TheVision]

You guys should teach Science Magic 101. lol

 

[Lorus]

Exactly. I think a misunderstanding of Clarke's Third Law is what's happening, and that's understandable, because it kinda takes the fun out of magic. The concept that if we go to an isolated place we might be giving the same speech to some charming local girl as Thor did. The idea that, if you understand the laws of magic, then you have it down to a science. So it's really just science, and you can name whatever the different magical forces and rules you discover the same way scientists have always named the rules and laws they discovered.

I think you're right about the concept being reviled as it's 'less fun'. I never understood why people get so worked up over it though. It's pretty much meaningless semantics.

 

[Figs]

So we're back to this silly discussion on how the movies shouldn't have fictitious magic. It all has to be tech and science based. I'm so curious as to how they're going to explain Dr Strange. I don't think some monks are going to have technology that will allow him to open portals to other dimensions/hell as well as fly.

 

[DrCosmic]

You guys should teach Science Magic 101. lol

I love talking about this stuff. I really do.

 

[Lorus]

So we're back to this silly discussion on how the movies shouldn't have fictitious magic. It all has to be tech and science based. I'm so curious as to how they're going to explain Dr Strange. I don't think some monks are going to have technology that will allow him to open portals to other dimensions/hell as well as fly.

We didn't make the Thor films. It was those films that put forth the Clarke's third law argument, we're merely accepting what the film presented. No agenda.