Age of Ultron The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - - - - - Part 51

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Funny thing about his complaints are that if they did make one of them the focal point to drive the story, then the irony would be that there was too much focus on this one character and everyone else got shafted. You can't win.

Exactly damned if you do damned if you don't. Some people are just never happy at all. Sucks to be them haha.
 
Exactly damned if you do damned if you don't. Some people are just never happy at all. Sucks to be them haha.

Ya, personally I loved how Hawkeye was used as a red herring. I for one definitely thought he would be getting the axe if anyone on the team was gonna die. Thought it was genius the movie was written around that fact. Yes, I was bummed and upset at what happened but I definitely dont believe it hurt the movie.
 
Eh…seriously disappointed in this film. Still looking forward to what Marvel stuff is to come but this was a misstep and a let down to me.
 
Ahh ok well sorry to hear you were disappointed
 
I loved it. Have seen it twice. Was better the second time for me. Was the same way with the first film
 
Marvel is 11 out of 11 on their films for me.
 
9 out of 11 for me.

Thor 2 and Iron Man 2 are okay, but nothing great.
 
Thor 2 and Iron Man 2 are okay, but nothing great.

But to me, they are still leaps and bounds ahead of other recent comic movies.

Went to see AoU again yesterday, this time my wife went with me (she hates to go the first week) and she loved it too. She really liked the preview of the next lineup, she was a big fan of Falcon from CAWS,
 
Yeah consider me one of the flock that is unmoved by most of Marvel's output, to their credit, nothing they make is bad...even their "lesser" films have some redeeming qualities to it, and coming from a guy who was born in an era of bad comic book movies, everything they make now is something we could only dream of back when I was a kid, but coming as a fan of cinema first and foremost (as I think you have to do) there are only a handful of films that truly get it right on a filmmaking level. Iron Man 1, Avengers, Winter Soldier, Guardians of the galaxy (and maybe Iron Man 3)...the rest (Ultron included) feel like you are required to have some level of love for the existing properties to truly enjoy these films, which to me (as a huge comic book fan) is still a big no no.

Ultron is the biggest display of the MCU "snake oil" so to speak, where I feel shoddy storytelling (ultron's entire plan), underwritten characters (thor gets the shaft and ultron is weak) and blatant betrayal of previous character traits (shoehorned widow/hulk, stark going on as if IM3 never happened) are largely overlooked and forgiven because let's face it...these films are so damn fun to watch. The quips are fun and numerous, the action is superb and kinetic, even with a more washed out look the film is bright and beautiful and filled with colours. The film stimulates the senses in more ways than one that it's so easy to glaze over how broken this film truly is, however despite me having a good time at the cinema (which one would think would be all you need) I never felt fully satisfied, that buzz in the air, that excited feeling i felt after the above mentioned films wasn't present for this one, i felt kinda empty and no rush to rewatch it this time.

I'm really hoping that CW brings that same magic that winter soldier had and doesn't succumb to the glut and weight of the shared universe like this one did.
 
To be fair I don't feel Asgard has been realized to its full potential quite yet. Hopefully in Ragnarok they do that.
 
Marvel is 11 out of 11 on their films for me.

Marvel is 8/11

Not a huge fan of Thor 2, Iron Man 2 & Iron Man 3. I actually just rewatched them yesterday.

But to me, they are still leaps and bounds ahead of other recent comic movies.

Agreed. Even the MCU films I dont like are still watchable and arent "bad" movies to me

To be fair I don't feel Asgard has been realized to its full potential quite yet. Hopefully in Ragnarok they do that.

100% agreed
 
To be fair I don't feel Asgard has been realized to its full potential quite yet. Hopefully in Ragnarok they do that.

I look at these Thor films and the focus they have on Loki and the Jane/Thor relationship...and I just don't think they are making them for me, nor do I think that will change.
 
But to me, they are still leaps and bounds ahead of other recent comic movies.

Agreed. Even at their worst, they still have some great stuff and I'm very glad they exist.

Ultron is the biggest display of the MCU "snake oil" so to speak, where I feel shoddy storytelling (ultron's entire plan), underwritten characters (thor gets the shaft and ultron is weak) and blatant betrayal of previous character traits (shoehorned widow/hulk, stark going on as if IM3 never happened) are largely overlooked and forgiven because let's face it...these films are so damn fun to watch. The quips are fun and numerous, the action is superb and kinetic, even with a more washed out look the film is bright and beautiful and filled with colours. The film stimulates the senses in more ways than one that it's so easy to glaze over how broken this film truly is, however despite me having a good time at the cinema (which one would think would be all you need) I never felt fully satisfied, that buzz in the air, that excited feeling i felt after the above mentioned films wasn't present for this one, i felt kinda empty and no rush to rewatch it this time.

I'm really hoping that CW brings that same magic that winter soldier had and doesn't succumb to the glut and weight of the shared universe like this one did.

You have a point here. Analyzing the movie at home, there really are significant flaws and some plain bad decisions with AoU. The sharpness just wasn't there and it was way too indulgent of Whedon, imo. Seems more like he made what he wanted to rather than the best possible movie. But, I just can't not love the movie! Even with all its flaws, there is just so much fun and heart in it. The character interactions, dialogue, acting perfomances, jaw-dropping action, etc is just too damn good. It covers the story and craftsmanship issues of AoU. I can't help but love it and be extremely entertained by it.

So AoU gets a "get out of jail free" card from me. Furthermore, I don't think it was all that different from TA in terms of quality. TA was safer and tighter, but the plot was incredibly vanilla and it did look like a tv movie. AoU is the opposite, it's far more ambitious and meaty but it's also quite sloppy and half-baked. It also vastly improves on the peripherals, like cinematography and fight choreography.

As a huge fan of these characters, I still love both movies, but for people who aren't as invested in the characters, Marvel has to step it back up to TWS/IM1 level. Fresh and slick.

To be fair I don't feel Asgard has been realized to its full potential quite yet. Hopefully in Ragnarok they do that.

I'm still holding out hope for the LOTR-type fantasy epic Thor movie I've always wanted. So much rich potential with that world and they turned it into rom-coms. Let's hope the third time is the charm.
 
Marvel is 11 out of 11 on their films for me.

Same for me. Every film doesn't have to be great for me which is why it's 11/11. I enjoyed each and everyone of the films, some more than others. None of them were bad to the point where I regret seeing it lol like I did for movies like Green Lantern, Ghost Rider 2 and the recent Transformers.
 
Marvel is 11 out of 11 on their films for me.

Same for me. Every film doesn't have to be great for me which is why it's 11/11. I enjoyed each and everyone of the films, some more than others. None of them were bad to the point where I regret seeing it lol like I did for movies like Green Lantern, Ghost Rider 2 and the recent Transformers.

Likewise for me, you guys are my new best friends haha. I've loved and enjoyed all of the films. It just so happens other ones I enjoyed even more or prefer more over some of the others. But overall I do enjoy them all and don't really have any problems with them like some do with IM2 or 3 or Thor 2. I can't have a massive MCU marathon and be into every single film entirely :woot:
 
If I put on my serious film critic hat I would only give Thumbs Up to 2 or 3 MCU movies.

But as a fan I still enjoy them all. None of them are terrible. Well except maybe IM2. And funny thing is I actually liked that movie the first time. But now I find it very difficult to sit through.
 
You have a point here. Analyzing the movie at home, there really are significant flaws and some plain bad decisions with AoU. The sharpness just wasn't there and it was way too indulgent of Whedon, imo. Seems more like he made what he wanted to rather than the best possible movie. But, I just can't not love the movie! Even with all its flaws, there is just so much fun and heart in it. The character interactions, dialogue, acting perfomances, jaw-dropping action, etc is just too damn good. It covers the story and craftsmanship issues of AoU. I can't help but love it and be extremely entertained by it.

Fully agree with all of this. Whedon made some amazing contributions, but he may have had too much control over the film. Marvel might should have reigned him in a bit.

I, like the few posts above, truly believe that Marvel hasn't made a clunker yet. Even the worst film (IMO TDW) was still fairly entertaining, higher quality than many other CBM offerings, and moved the greater MCU story forward.
 
I feel AOU is a solid film , but it is also very much a set up film much like Iron Man 2 was a set up film. It was basically putting alot of pieces in place for phase 3, and I could see how it could get bogged down for the non fanboy viewer with all the references , allusions , and set ups to films which are a few years down the road.

It had to basically put things in place for Infinity Wars, Black Panther, Ragnorock, and Civil War, while at the same time introducing complex characters like Vision, The Twins, Ultron, while at the same time making allusions to SHIELD and Agent Carter, while at the same time giving our returning cast a new challenge. Whedon ultimately pulls it off the majority of the time I think , and balances things enough I suppose.

I think the biggest weaknesses in the film are basically more certain scenes and execution of ideas more than the overarching story. The films ideas aren't bad imo. For example ,the idea of Bruce and Natasha isn't a bad imo. It just seemed like the actors didn't really have a romantic chemistry and it did feel more shoehorned in as opposed to a natural part of the narrative.

Ultimately , it works far more than it doesn't work and its a fun ride at the movies. That said, with I hope with a story like Infinity War, they truly take their time to establish the stones, the gauntlet, and the mythology, and not take for granted that everyone seeing the film has watched all of the shows and all of the films. With two parts it looks like they'll be able to do that.
 
Agreed. Even at their worst, they still have some great stuff and I'm very glad they exist.



You have a point here. Analyzing the movie at home, there really are significant flaws and some plain bad decisions with AoU. The sharpness just wasn't there and it was way too indulgent of Whedon, imo. Seems more like he made what he wanted to rather than the best possible movie. But, I just can't not love the movie! Even with all its flaws, there is just so much fun and heart in it. The character interactions, dialogue, acting perfomances, jaw-dropping action, etc is just too damn good. It covers the story and craftsmanship issues of AoU. I can't help but love it and be extremely entertained by it.

So AoU gets a "get out of jail free" card from me. Furthermore, I don't think it was all that different from TA in terms of quality. TA was safer and tighter, but the plot was incredibly vanilla and it did look like a tv movie. AoU is the opposite, it's far more ambitious and meaty but it's also quite sloppy and half-baked. It also vastly improves on the peripherals, like cinematography and fight choreography.

As a huge fan of these characters, I still love both movies, but for people who aren't as invested in the characters, Marvel has to step it back up to TWS/IM1 level. Fresh and slick.

I agree, to a certain extent, but after a while if the pieces aren't fitting as well as they should, that outer sheen that gets that free pass from everyone starts losing it's worth. I liken it to Iron Man 2, which still remains one of the most watchable films of the MCU, but like Ultron is chock full of potential that was squandered. Personally I tend to be harder on films like that, because nothing really excuses a film that was so close to getting it right.
 
I really liked AOU, but will admit I didn’t love it. With a film as jam-packed as this though, there are bound to be as many issues as there are great things. I spent a lot of time looking at where I’d adjust things in ways that I would’ve personally found more satisfying. This is in no way suggesting I could’ve done any better, because hindsight is always 20/20 and it’s easy to critique from your armchair than truly make a good movie from scratch. But I’m curious to know your guys’ thoughts on these points.

First off, I’d like to note that a big issue for me was the romantic subplot between Banner and Black Widow. I love a good, tragic, love story, but here I felt the pieces didn’t fit. There’s a definitely a kinship to be explored there, but it could’ve been done through different means. I got the impression from the end of TWS that Widow had accepted her past and was moving forward. I don’t peg her as someone still sulking about her past so openly, even with a Witch’s influence. I believe this angle could’ve been used to help Banner with a separate arc – the power struggle for control between he & Hulk. He’s been unleashing the Hulk fairly often now, and Hulk has taken a liking to it. That’s my biggest change upfront.

So with that preface out of the way, here’s how I’d see the movie playing out:
• Opening essentially plays out the same.

• Back at base, it’s clear the Avengers are getting burnt out. Their relationships are falling apart due to time spent in different lives (Thor & Jane, Tony & Pepper, Hawkeye’s yet-to-be-mentioned family), it’s taking a toll on their bodies, and oftentimes when one threat is defeated, another will spring up as a direct result of their interference. Banner is worried that the Hulk is enjoying his time out too much and is getting harder to coax down after battles. R&R is in order before an upcoming afterparty.

• Stark believes the scepter can help be the final piece in creating Ultron, an AI like JARVIS that’s merely lacking the more intricate judgment to determine small, complex decisions (like the fact that JARVIS attacks Extemis Pepper in IM3 due to having a black-and-white, robotic mindset). By using it to insert his brainwaves, deeper analytical judgment could be practiced.

• The rest of the group, beaten down by their fatigue, concedes that it may be a good idea, trusting that Stark’s judgment will be a useful benefactor. Cap is the most reluctant by far and away since he lives for avenging, but concedes that it may be a good idea if it means he can spend more time tracking down Bucky. He wants more time to know the research is solid, but Stark is so confident that he puts it into action anyway.

• Ultron and JARVIS’s first confrontation is given more breathing time when Ultron brings himself into an armored suit. We see him learn a bit more before tearing down JARVIS.

• Party scene & its interruption play out as is (minus the subtracted romance subplot). The Starkisms in Ultron are on full display earlier, indicating the darker side of Stark’s mind has been utilized.

• All plays out the same.

• When Wanda gives the team visions, Thor’s vision is a fusion of his first one and second. No reason to give him two when they can be compressed.

• We see Wanda induce Banner with reality-warping fears – we get inside his head to see him in a state of limbo where he internally confronts Hulk in an abstract visual manner (which’d be totally awesome with a creative-enough director). Banner’s consciousness attempts to keep Hulk’s consciousness at bay, but the Hulk’s aggressively breaks out and Hulk begins his rampage.

• During the Hulkbuster fight, the various pieces of Stark’s armor die out due the extreme amount of energy they take to power (re: the many arc reactors being used). More tension is injected into the fight as limbs flop off and a “ticking clock” element is given to a pressured Tony. With the final lowly percentage, Stark fires his fist into Hulk. Hulk down. Hulkbuster down. Hulk is no longer superseded on the team by an Iron Man armor.

• Farm sequence mostly plays out as is. Thor is on the farm. Fury doesn’t show up and isn’t mentioned. Black Widow’s scene with Banner is her confronting him on his fears coming to life. She relates to him that she too has a monster within her. It’s been buried there, and could come out any time to haunt her, but she’s come to accept that it’s a part of her, and understands that fearing it will only reinforce its power over her. Banner differentiates his experience from hers, but can’t help finding truth in her words.

• Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch torment Dr. Cho into doing Ultron’s bidding. Seeing her in that state has an effect on Wanda, who expresses in a scene alone with Pietro that she’s only really in this to hurt the Avengers & not take victims as collateral damage as Stark once did to their family. Pietro is more defensive about it and halfheartedly excuses the issue. Ultron in the meantime prepares his new body.

• Back at Avengers Tower, Stark discovers JARVIS stowed away in a Iron Legion suit that he severed from the network while hiding from Ultron, rather than the internet.

• All plays out the same, until the Ultron fight where Banner, not Widow, is captured by Ultron.

• Ultron plans on using the Hulk as a nuclear option in the way the Avengers have been. He admits to admiring the Hulk as Banner’s “evolved form”, and wishes to eradicate the latter. He places Banner in a torture device in an effort to draw Hulk out permanently. Banner internally fights it as he had when Wanda affected him earlier. The clash makes his body behave erratically, seizing up and thrashing.

• Stark moves forward with using JARVIS to create Vision in private. The scene plays out the same, except Widow is there to fight alongside Cap, while Thor recognizes the gem & the android from his vision. The opponents disable the cocoon, but Thor jumpstarts with lightning as he does in the film (this time from within the conflict of the scene, rather than leaping in at the last moment out of seemingly nowhere).

• All plays out the same. Vision is awesome.

• In this instance, Widow shows up to free Banner and sees him wigging the hell out. She disables the torture device and reiterates her struggle with acceptance of inner demons, unsure if she’s getting through to him as he continues struggling. The internal visual clashing ceases. When he seems to reach a moment of harmony, the Hulk is unleashed and Widow’s terrified that Banner has lost control. However, Hulk graciously nods at Widow. He suggests he and Banner have reached a harmonious balance, and off they go to the battle.

• Before Vision disconnects Ultron from the internet, Ultron takes over Stark’s gear, including a banged-up Hulkbuster armor to sick onto the twins specifically as revenge, and to drive home the fact that the Avengers no longer have a contingency plan. Ultron also uses Stark storage ships to transport more and more drones onto the city. On the battlefield, suit-less Stark uses his ingenuity to help more people to safety, impressing the twins, who see a different side of him. Once Ultron is disconnected, Stark dons the new armor and resumes kicking ass with that awesome tri-fecta unibeam moment.

• All plays out the same, including the conflict about sacrificing the city to save the world – only this time, the Vision takes control of Stark’s now-Ultron-less ships and uses them to get people off the city, rather than the slightly more deus-ex-machina Helicarrier.

• Rest of battle plays out the same.

• Lured into the Quinjet, Hulk now has complete control, but tentatively allows Banner back out. They don’t care for each other, but have reached a balance.
-OR-
• Hulk is told to surrender control back to Banner by Widow on the speaker, but Hulk gets on a power trip and refuses to do so. He shuts the speaker off and hijacks the Quinjet in a similar fashion seen in the film. However, the sadness is drawn from Banner being lost in Hulk’s body as Hulk selfishly keeps it to himself after Banner’s generously surrendered temporary control to him. We don’t see where he’s headed next.

• Stark is in hot water for his ****ups – he leaves just as much for a break as he does to do damage control.

• Rest of movie plays out the same.

These are just some thoughts I had in an effort to tighten things up, allow more breathing room in the pacing, create a more focused narrative through characters’ clearer motives thrusting the story, and keep in line with the themes of evolution and the team falling apart.

However, I only saw it once, so it’s entirely possible certain things I brought up could undo other points in the story. What do you think? Could any of these helped or been something you’d want to see? Even just smaller pieces like the extra tension in the Hulkbuster fight? Was my take on Hulk & Widow just silly compared to the film? Let me know, I enjoyed doing this.

Don’t take this as a knock to the film, by the way. I just enjoyed it so much I was inspired by it to apply my own creativity to it.
 
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