The Flash The Flash Season 1, Episode 1 "Pilot" General Discussion

[DrCosmic]

I don't care what anyone else's point of view is. I was stating my own subjective evaluation of it, and I labeled it as such. The person I was responding to did not. I found almost everything about it to be well below par. The music choices, the acting, the writing, the dialogue, the heavy handed foreshadowing, the entirely inconsistent tone, and the camera work are all things I do not like about the show.

First of all, it should be pretty obvious I wasn't comparing its overall viewership with that of Arrow's. Batman is many orders of magnitude more popular than Green Arrow, Arrow is on a network that is co-owned by DC's parent company, the expectations on CW are much lower versus Fox, and I would imagine Gotham has a much higher budget.

It should be equally obvious I wasn't saying you were comparing its overall viewership with that of Arrow's.

I guess the question should be: what is your par? What, for you is a decent show? If it's one of the 10-15 best shows on TV, perhaps "par" doesn't mean what you think it means.

My par is very typical shows like CSI/Law&Order/NCIS. Largely boring but serviceable. Solid but simple. I wouldn't put AoS or Gotham below NCIS in terms of craftsmanship, would you?

And I never called any of Gotham's fans stupid. I was responding to the declarative statement that both AoS and Gotham were "solid, quality wise". If other people like the show, great. I hope they enjoy it. But a large number of people liking something is not an indication of objective quality, if there can even be such a thing in the realm of art. Tens of millions of people buy Call of Duty every year, and in my opinion those games are awful. I'm not accusing people who do like them of being stupid or having poor taste, I'm challenging the notion that popularity equates to quality.

Some quality is necessary for popularity, or else Superman 64 would have gotten a sequel. I, the poster you wished to correct, recognize that quality, and have a pretty good handle on what it is and what it isn't, if you don't, oh well. If you demand everyone who says Call of Duty is a superior game to Superman 64 to say 'in my opinion' then... oh well.

As for Gotham's trend:
8.21m->7.45m is a decline of about 760,000, or ~9.3%. 7.45m->6.36m is a decline of about 1.09m, or ~14.6%.

Arrow:
4.14m->3.55m is a decline of 590,000, or about 14.3%. 3.55m->3.05m is a decline of 500,000, or about 14.1%.

My point: Arrow's drop between the episodes was about the same, then it rebounded a bit in week 4. The decline from episode 2 to 3 of Gotham was much bigger than the one from episode 1 to 2. Like I said, it isn't enough to call it a trend yet. My point was not that Gotham is in trouble, but rather, that we have to wait and see.

You said it was alarming, your point was definitely that Gotham is in trouble.

 

[Marvel Spider]

I actually really liked the pilot. Looking forward to next week!

 

[famicommander]

It should be equally obvious I wasn't saying you were comparing its overall viewership with that of Arrow's.

Then why did you say,
"we can pretty much conclude that more people will continue to enjoy Gotham than watch Arrow"

My par is very typical shows like CSI/Law&Order/NCIS. Largely boring but serviceable. Solid but simple. I wouldn't put AoS or Gotham below NCIS in terms of quality, would you?

I don't watch any of those shows, so I wouldn't know.

Some quality is necessary for popularity, or else Superman 64 would have gotten a sequel. I recognize that quality, and have a pretty good handle on what it is and what it isn't, if you don't, oh well. If you demand everyone who says Call of Duty is a superior game to Superman 64 to say 'in my opinion' then... oh well.

Superman 64 had decent sales, actually. Superman 64 was a barely functional game, but if someone out there enjoys it, more power to them. It can still have entertainment value, and ultimately that's what matters. The game's poor word of mouth is what kept it from getting a sequel, which is a collective measure of subjective quality.

And no, I don't think everyone should have to label their opinions as such. I was responding directly to someone who made a declarative comparison.

You said it was alarming, your point was definitely that Gotham is in trouble.

Alarming... as in, it should raise some flags. Not "abandon ship".

 

[Siby]

Man, that was a fun and exciting pilot. I'm looking forward to the series.

What was the deal with the guy from Star Labs at the end looking at future news? Why, how was he able to walk? Why fake it in the first place?

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

It was okay. I thought Gotham was a lot better.

 

[DrCosmic]

Then why did you say,
"we can pretty much conclude that more people will continue to enjoy Gotham than watch Arrow"

Well, like I said, if the ratings stay higher, then that literally follows. That's why I immediately clarified that superior popularity does not mean superior quality, which is the common strawman response to the fact that superior popularity indicates some quality.

I don't watch any of those shows, so I wouldn't know.

So, what is par for you?

Superman 64 had decent sales, actually. Superman 64 was a barely functional game, but if someone out there enjoys it, more power to them. It can still have entertainment value, and ultimately that's what matters. The game's poor word of mouth is what kept it from getting a sequel, which is a collective measure of subjective quality.

The game's poor word of mouth is a direct result of it's failure to do what games are meant to do, which means we can objectively evaluate it's quality the same way we evaluate the quality of chair. Does it do what is intended? Does a decent (literally acceptable) amount of the audience find the characters on a tv show compelling? Then the show has decent characters, even if I don't like them at all. You can focus on the fact that we are measuring something subjective, or you can just do so objectively. I choose to do the latter. If I can't think of anything remotely good about a chair that many people comfortably and regularly sit in, then maybe I just don't understand chairs. "Comfort is subjective" just misses the point.

And no, I don't think everyone should have to label their opinions as such. I was responding directly to someone who made a declarative comparison.

How do you differentiate between an unlabeled opinion and a declarative statement?

 

[Rowsdower!]

Saw it tonight and loved it. It's easily better than Gotham and Agents of SHIELD, and it might be better than Arrow. Gustin is definitely a stronger actor than Amell at least, and I like Amell. But Gustin just has this nerdy natural charisma that makes you want to root for him. I know we're only one episode in, but I'd put his Barry up there with Cavill's Superman and Bale's Batman. Sorry to beat a dead horse, but damn it WB, the ratings are strong and people are digging the show... put Gustin in the JL movie. It could really work, I swear. Make it happen.

 

[W/ Great Power]

Here's an interview of Grant Gustin, Candice Patton, and Danielle Panabaker. It's raw footage, so you might have to adjust the volume a bit.

I found it kind of cool how Gustin is a die-hard Superman fan and actually has his tattoo as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3lyoo93vmw

 

[raisethe3]

Finally got a chance to watch this pilot. So far, very good. Will probably add this to my tv show list to watch if it keeps up.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Slo mo realization of perception powers, looking back and forth in disbelief standing in front of the love interest isn't completely different. It's even the same thematically in the story, in the same place for the same reason. I somehow doubt that was true in the original comics before bullet time or 'aug cog' was even a thing. This is on top of the alley realization of his transportation powers, also at the same place thematically and narratively in the story. This is on top of the grossly illogical "keep my daughter out of this," also at the same place in the story from the new films. This is on top of Gustin being a dead ringer for a Peter Parker, which is not how anyone would have described Barry Allen before this point. This is more parallels than Arrow had to Batman Begins in its pilot, and Arrow was originally a ripoff homage of Batman. It's not a coincidence, it's purposeful, and smart and part of the charm of the show.

That happened in the original Barry Allen debut story. He saw a bullet moving in slow motion toward Iris, and pushed her aside.
Before that he saw a waitress carrying dishes in a diner, they were falling right by his table in slow motion, and he sorted them out.

 

[flickchick85]

I'd say this was about on par with Gotham for me: lots of cheese in the dialogue and storytelling in general, but the casting really saves it. I do like both shows better than Arrow. I think Agents of SHIELD in its current incarnation is much stronger than any of those three, but that's me.

Still, cheese aside, it's off to a decent start and Gustin makes for a wonderful lead, imo.

 

[Sawyer]

Oh you.

 

[kedrell]

OK, my first impression is that I more or less liked this pilot, which puts it solidly ahead of the Gotham pilot. It did feel like a two hour pilot that got edited to just one hour with all the quick edits and problems that come with that. But my unfamiliarity with this mythos kept me from detecting overly inorganic fan service like was a big problem with the Gotham pilot. I'll give this pilot a B-. It's a hopeful start.

 

[Human Torch]

I didn't really notice any "Raimi's Spider-Man" in it.After re-watching,I guess the "Wanna hear my story?" style bookends was kinda close,but hardly a big deal.

 

[WBwins]

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but damn it WB, the ratings are strong and people are digging the show... put Gustin in the JL movie. It could really work, I swear. Make it happen.

Im getting really tired of hearing this.There is no WAY TO PUT THE flash tv show in the same universe with the movies without messing up continuity.None whatsoever.

 

[DrCosmic]

That happened in the original Barry Allen debut story. He saw a bullet moving in slow motion toward Iris, and pushed her aside.
Before that he saw a waitress carrying dishes in a diner, they were falling right by his table in slow motion, and he sorted them out.

It sounds like like you're saying two separate events happened, at different places than the Spidey scene, and for different reasons than the Spidey scene, and they combined them to make something that is very much like the Spider-Man scene in terms of placement, theme, purpose and narrative. While I can't say that's not true, does anyone expect me to view it as a coincidence?

I'm going to see if I can find this, I really can't imagine what slo mo might have meant looked like in old school comics, or why it was such a big deal cinematically if we've been doing it for forty years.

 

[Rowsdower!]

Im getting really tired of hearing this.There is no WAY TO PUT THE flash tv show in the same universe with the movies without messing up continuity.None whatsoever.

That's a lot of assumption based on one episode of a TV show and one movie (MOS). But yeah, you know everything, so why bother arguing?

 

[DrCosmic]

I'd say this was about on par with Gotham for me: lots of cheese in the dialogue and storytelling in general, but the casting really saves it. I do like both shows better than Arrow. I think Agents of SHIELD in its current incarnation is much stronger than any of those three, but that's me.

Still, cheese aside, it's off to a decent start and Gustin makes for a wonderful lead, imo.

I've noticed, cheesiness really takes things down a notch for you, huh?

 

[BoredGuy]

watched the pilot last night, here's my thoughts:

pros- Likeable lead, sense of fun and energy, decent action scenes

cons- horrendous dialogue, boring performances, spotty VFX

Seriously, the performances on this show from everyone outside of the lead just made me cringe. Even Steve Amell came off way worse in this show than his own (and Arrow is a bit of a cheesefest sometimes itself).
It's almost the opposite of Gotham. Gotham is a show with good performances, decent writing and a unique style, hampered by shoe-horning in unnecessary connections to the mythology. Flash revels in and is bolstered by it's mythology, but suffers from a lack of style or real flair, as well as weak ass performances.

 

[WBwins]

Show was FANTASTIC.Everything was aweomse.Well excpt Stephen amells bad acting.But it was good

 

[W/ Great Power]

I didn't really notice any "Raimi's Spider-Man" in it.After re-watching,I guess the "Wanna hear my story?" style bookends was kinda close,but hardly a big deal.

I don't think it was a copy at all, and I'm a huge Spidey fan.

I think the "Wanna hear my story?" aspect is great. The episode opens and ends on more of a personal note, and that kind of narrative style brings the audience closer to the character.

I'm definitely interested in seeing how that develops ahead.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

I think Jc said it reminded him of Raimi Spider-man and a bunch of people hopped on board with that comment. It's the shh hype group mentality at it again!

 

[Rowsdower!]

It reminded me a little of the first two Raimi Spider-Man films, but that's a good thing in my book.

 

[Sun_Down]

Really enjoyed it. It was fun, Gustin was charming, and the plot was engaging. The last 15 minutes had some groan-worthy moments, but overall it was very strong. The strong performances of Gustin and Martin helped carry the show through some of the weaker procedural moments.

Really liking the visual style as well. That cowl is badass.

 

[WBwins]

That's a lot of assumption based on one episode of a TV show and one movie (MOS). But yeah, you know everything, so why bother arguing?

The MOSverse is created to have Supeerman as the 1st Public Superhero.Arrrowverse is created to have Flash as the 1st Public Superhero.Do you see the Problem?I may not know everything but I certainly know how to pay attention