The Flash The Flash season 2 episode 11 "The Reverse Flash Returns"

[Paradox1]

They didn't down grade RF, Barry has upped his game past RF younger self.

 

[Seb]

There's SO. MUCH. GOING. ON.

It was a good episode but bloated as all hell. They have a lot of story threads right now, and I hope at least 2 are resolved by next week.

I don't know where they are going with Zoom. I really don't. I hope the Jay doppleganger is just throwing us off the scent of who Zoom really is.

The Patty stuff was cracking me up left and right. Holy crap was that unneeded drama. She should have figured it out way sooner, and they wrote her SOOO WEAK the last two episodes, it's almost insulting. Her whole angle was to trap Barry. She clearly doesn't even want to leave. She was ready to stay for any given reason, and didn't really want to go. She was just being over dramatic to make Barry talk to her. The man with a gun threat at the end was just uncalled for, and really drove the nail into the coffin haha.

Such stereotypical relationship nonsense, it's juvenile writing. I really thought Patty would be above all this high school nonsense. Especially since it has to do with her leaving for school.

I'm not a massive fan of the Patty stuff, but I did like that while she was trying to get Barry to give her a reason to stay, it was made pretty clear that she wanted to stay for the job as much as she did for Barry, so it was less about Barry being her whole world and more that he was the tipping point between two things she really wanted (i.e. she wanted to go to CSI school a little more than being a cop, but being a cop + being with Barry would have edged that over being a CSI.)

My issue with Barry's whole "I don't want her to stay just for me" thing was that he can literally go and visit her at school in seconds whenever they want to spend time together. But I do get his whole "Zoom will kill everyone I love" thing, even if the logic is flawed.

 

[Jedi Arrow]

So if Zolomon is Earth-1 Jay, wouldn't it be a twist if Zoom was Earth-2 Barry?

 

[Infinity9999x]

I'm not a massive fan of the Patty stuff, but I did like that while she was trying to get Barry to give her a reason to stay, it was made pretty clear that she wanted to stay for the job as much as she did for Barry, so it was less about Barry being her whole world and more that he was the tipping point between two things she really wanted (i.e. she wanted to go to CSI school a little more than being a cop, but being a cop + being with Barry would have edged that over being a CSI.)

My issue with Barry's whole "I don't want her to stay just for me" thing was that he can literally go and visit her at school in seconds whenever they want to spend time together. But I do get his whole "Zoom will kill everyone I love" thing, even if the logic is flawed.

Agreed. The Barry/Patty drama was very forced, since he easily could visit her in a second. And Zoom will go after anyone he cares about, not just his romantic interests.

Anywho...was anyone else a little underwhelmed by Reverse Flash in this ep? He was fine I suppose, but the reveal of his motivation...while being true to the comic...just felt a bit flat after the entire year of buildup last year. And I think Cavanaugh was just a better villain overall.

 

[Travesty]

Nah, I liked RF in this episode.

 

[bicep]

Classic wrestling promo technique. Have Flash squash a big bad from last season in half an episode to show how much more improved he is and indirectly show how much more of a challenge Zoom (the current big bad) is in comparison.

I liked how they kinda sorta resolved the Barry/Patty thing at the end. She got the confirmation she needed without Barry actually revealing himself to her officially. He stopped vibrating his face on purpose. If he's going to wear a mask with gigantic eye holes and no eyeliner (like Green Arrow), people who know Barry Allen are going to recognise him in costume.

 

[Herolee10]

Unless they have Barry realize that he made a mistake in letting Patty go and ends up getting her back in his life, I feel like we're on the verge of yet again going back down the "Barry and Iris" route.

Sigh...like Patty said before, she's been an AWESOME GF, and it sucks to lose such potential. Plus, she's like the only viable option when it comes to Barry's canon/mythological love interests. So unless they create yet another Felicity for him, it's Iris...again.

I mean, Iris has improved SIGNIFICANTLY (more so than Felicity) when compared to the previous season. She's caring, smarter, used better, and isn't self-absorbed anymore.

It's just that damn whole Foster Sibling thing that irks me.

 

[SpideyVille]

I felt like Thawne looked pretty convincing as a Flash fanboy, but they seemed to just want to skip over all the complicated mess of his Origins which is basically straight out the comics.

But yeah, I'm seeing people say this is the best episode yet, and while I am never too critical about shows like this, I have to strongly agree. This, and last week, have been their weakest, and next week looks like a filler with the Freak of the Week returning.

I know Arrow, Flash and definitely Legends, like to keep the story moving forward, but this was one episode where you need to SHOW not TELL. Too much going on that all the big moments just seem like they're brushed off.

Let me list all the plot points:

1. Reverse Flash returns (Gets caught pretty quickly)
2. Patty discovers Barry is the Flash all on her own. (Not shown)
3. Francine is dying/ Wally has unresolved issues (Resolves them with himself offscreen)
4. Jay is dying, but suddenly knows who his doppelganger is (Never says anything about any of this to anyone).
5. Cisco gets Vibe glasses and harnasses his powers (Go into a seizure that lasts forever and then wakes up craving burgers)
6. Barry struggles with his feelings towards Thawne (Gets talked out of or into everything he does this episode in 20 seconds).

So many great plots points that all came off underwhelming and rushed.

 

[Herolee10]

I felt like Thawne looked pretty convincing as a Flash fanboy, but they seemed to just want to skip over all the complicated mess of his Origins which is basically straight out the comics.

But yeah, I'm seeing people say this is the best episode yet, and while I am never too critical about shows like this, I have to strongly agree. This, and last week, have been their weakest, and next week looks like a filler with the Freak of the Week returning.

I know Arrow, Flash and definitely Legends, like to keep the story moving forward, but this was one episode where you need to SHOW not TELL. Too much going on that all the big moments just seem like they're brushed off.

Let me list all the plot points:

1. Reverse Flash returns (Gets caught pretty quickly)
2. Patty discovers Barry is the Flash all on her own. (Not shown)
3. Francine is dying/ Wally has unresolved issues (Resolves them with himself offscreen)
4. Jay is dying, but suddenly knows who his doppelganger is (Never says anything about any of this to anyone).
5. Cisco gets Vibe glasses and harnasses his powers (Go into a seizure that lasts forever and then wakes up craving burgers)
6. Barry struggles with his feelings towards Thawne (Gets talked out of or into everything he does this episode in 20 seconds).

So many great plots points that all came off underwhelming and rushed.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I felt like Thawne looked pretty convincing as a Flash fanboy, but they seemed to just want to skip over all the complicated mess of his Origins which is basically straight out the comics.

But yeah, I'm seeing people say this is the best episode yet, and while I am never too critical about shows like this, I have to strongly agree. This, and last week, have been their weakest, and next week looks like a filler with the Freak of the Week returning.

I know Arrow, Flash and definitely Legends, like to keep the story moving forward, but this was one episode where you need to SHOW not TELL. Too much going on that all the big moments just seem like they're brushed off.

Let me list all the plot points:

1. Reverse Flash returns (Gets caught pretty quickly)
2. Patty discovers Barry is the Flash all on her own. (Not shown)
3. Francine is dying/ Wally has unresolved issues (Resolves them with himself offscreen)
4. Jay is dying, but suddenly knows who his doppelganger is (Never says anything about any of this to anyone).
5. Cisco gets Vibe glasses and harnasses his powers (Go into a seizure that lasts forever and then wakes up craving burgers)
6. Barry struggles with his feelings towards Thawne (Gets talked out of or into everything he does this episode in 20 seconds).

So many great plots points that all came off underwhelming and rushed.

Agreed. And that's how I felt abou RF in general this episode. He was fine, but he had none of the nuance that Cavanaugh's RF did last season. Also, the explanation for him being what he is just felt...anticlimactic after how they built him up all last year. Especially since when Barry asked Eobard why he did what he did, he avoided it. And he gave it a sense of weight, like it was something more personal and more connected between Barry and himself.

It wasn't bad...but it just felt very rushed. I feel like they should have cut out the other subplots and focused on RF for this episode, given that he's such a huge element of this show. He needed more focus.

 

[The Shape]

I ****ing loved this episode and everything involving Reverse Flash.

 

[SpideyVille]

Agreed. And that's how I felt abou RF in general this episode. He was fine, but he had none of the nuance that Cavanaugh's RF did last season. Also, the explanation for him being what he is just felt...anticlimactic after how they built him up all last year. Especially since when Barry asked Eobard why he did what he did, he avoided it. And he gave it a sense of weight, like it was something more personal and more connected between Barry and himself.

It wasn't bad...but it just felt very rushed. I feel like they should have cut out the other subplots and focused on RF for this episode, given that he's such a huge element of this show. He needed more focus.

Yeah, like I'm not a huge Flash fan or know much from the comics, but I understood the backstory so I know what's the motivation behind Thawne. But I feel like he's the type of villain that you're tempted to feel sympathetic for in terms of their origin, and the actor tried his best to get that across in the short scene, but I feel like that story had so much potential to be more compelling and heart wrenching if we actually saw him go from a huge Flash fan to a bitter and distraught nemesis.

I don't mind him being as badass as Cavanagh's performance, because those are really two different versions of the same character from different points in time, but I feel the writing and pacing really held this episode back, which is a shame because there were so many cool moments.

 

[Herolee10]

Well, this is what happens when the Producers get too greedy and ambitious, where they focus their creative energy in launching another show.

I just hope that they don't plan on making yet ANOTHER DC-TV show since every other show's quality will suffer from it.

 

[Headliner]

Soooooo do you guys think Jay's clone (Hunter Zolomon) is Zoom like he should be? Or are the writers just throwing us a curveball?

 

[The Shape]

I think the Zoom thing could just be a big curveball/red herring.

 

[Herolee10]

Soooooo do you guys think Jay's clone (Hunter Zolomon) is Zoom like he should be? Or are the writers just throwing us a curveball?

Probably throwing us a curve ball. Though, I wouldn't be surprised if they went that route. But I'd say that (for now) it's safe to assume that Earth 1's Jay Garrick (Hunter) isn't the Zoom from Earth 2.

 

[Paradox1]

Yeah, like I'm not a huge Flash fan or know much from the comics, but I understood the backstory so I know what's the motivation behind Thawne. But I feel like he's the type of villain that you're tempted to feel sympathetic for in terms of their origin, and the actor tried his best to get that across in the short scene, but I feel like that story had so much potential to be more compelling and heart wrenching if we actually saw him go from a huge Flash fan to a bitter and distraught nemesis.

I don't mind him being as badass as Cavanagh's performance, because those are really two different versions of the same character from different points in time, but I feel the writing and pacing really held this episode back, which is a shame because there were so many cool moments.

Thawne is not Syndrome he is not a sympathetic villain, never has been. He's a psychopath he saw his destiny and felt powerless to change it.

 

[SpideyVille]

Don't even get me started on the lazy writing of how/why Thawne decides that when he returns in the past, it will be to recruit Cisco and steal Wells' identity.

It was all such a cop out to put those pieces together on the spot, as opposed to showing down the line where they encounter. And it actually creates a huge plot hole.

It was heavily implied last season that Thawne went back in time to kill Barry's mother as revenge, and then he accelerated things from the original timeline so he could get home faster. However, if that's the case, why is he now in an altered timeline, and why is this timeline affecting the original timeline? They never explain that he's jumping in between timelines and realities, so that last season, when it is heavily implied that he picks Wells because he develops the Particle Accelerator in 2020, and recruits Cisco because he holds a great power, they completely make that null in void.

 

[SpideyVille]

Thawne is not Syndrome he is not a sympathetic villain, never has been. He's a psychopath he saw his destiny and felt powerless to change it.

I always thought he was just a person with an obsessive nature that started off innocent at first, but ultimately turned to madness once he learned too much.

The way they played it up last season, as much as he hated Barry and wanted him dead, what he wanted most was to return home.

 

[The Shape]

Dude, they spelled out everything about Thawne jumping through timelines on a see-through chalk board. It was a perfectly simple explanation.

 

[Paradox1]

I always thought he was just a person with an obsessive nature that started off innocent at first, but ultimately turned to madness once he learned too much.

The way they played it up last season, as much as he hated Barry and wanted him dead, what he wanted most was to return home.

The Thawne we met last year is an older version of the one we met tonight. Last year he told Barry that they had been having this fight for a very long time. For Thawne this is his first encounter with him.

 

[SpideyVille]

Dude, they spelled out everything about Thawne jumping through timelines on a see-through chalk board. It was a perfectly simple explanation.

No, they said he was protected in the Speed Force, and that's why this version of Thawne still exists, even though he was supposed to be wiped from existence.

They never say he's been traveling through time for most of his life.

 

[Herolee10]

Don't even get me started on the lazy writing of how/why Thawne decides that when he returns in the past, it will be to recruit Cisco and steal Wells' identity.

It was all such a cop out to put those pieces together on the spot, as opposed to showing down the line where they encounter. And it actually creates a huge plot hole.

It was heavily implied last season that Thawne went back in time to kill Barry's mother as revenge, and then he accelerated things from the original timeline so he could get home faster. However, if that's the case, why is he now in an altered timeline, and why is this timeline affecting the original timeline? They never explain that he's jumping in between timelines and realities, so that last season, when it is heavily implied that he picks Wells because he develops the Particle Accelerator in 2020, and recruits Cisco because he holds a great power, they completely make that null in void.

I think they're going with the concept that Time is an "evolving" process where things are always replaced and altered as events unfold.

The best example that I can think of is from the film "Back to the Future". Remember the scene where Marty comes back from the past and tries to save the older version of Doc Brown but ends up witnessing the event unfold the same way, with his "past" self driving the car into the past (thus setting up the events of the film)?

I think they're going with that route. So even though RF was technically erased from existence, the events of the present day still need to be set for that event to have taken place. So in other words, RF still needed to come to the past (present day) in order to set the stage for him to kill Barry's mom later on so that everything could lead up to where things are at now, just like in "Back to the Future".

 

[SpideyVille]

The Thawne we met last year is an older version of the one we met tonight. Last year he told Barry that they had been having this fight for a very long time. For Thawne this is his first encounter with him.

I get that, but what I'm saying is they implied that he hates Barry so much, despite this being the first time they meet.

That's what always confused me about the character to begin with. Every video I've seen and explanation I've heard basically says he is a huge fan of the Flash, to the point where he tries to become him but fails, and discovers that he's actually his arch nemesis. But I've never heard why, other than because he's destined to.

 

[Batsfan1]

Unless they have Barry realize that he made a mistake in letting Patty go and ends up getting her back in his life, I feel like we're on the verge of yet again going back down the "Barry and Iris" route.

Sigh...like Patty said before, she's been an AWESOME GF, and it sucks to lose such potential. Plus, she's like the only viable option when it comes to Barry's canon/mythological love interests. So unless they create yet another Felicity for him, it's Iris...again.

I mean, Iris has improved SIGNIFICANTLY (more so than Felicity) when compared to the previous season. She's caring, smarter, used better, and isn't self-absorbed anymore.

She wasn't not those things before. But she isn't really used better.

God bless you! God bless everyone!