The Flash The Flash Season 3 episode 19 "The Once and Future Flash"

That new suit looks really good, I'm hoping it's got the gold boots too.

Usually I'm really irritated by these breaks, but I actually don't mind this one at all. The show comes back on April 25, and that's the date of the future newspaper, which I assume will also be the date Barry is traveling to. That just adds a little bit of coolness to this episode.
 
Suit looks awesome. Finally something closer to the material. The fact that Tom is directing the episode makes it more exciting. I have no doubt it's going to be loaded.
 
So the whole team become distraught versions of themselves because the most useless character ever was killed off?
 
Look I know it's a joke, but let's get real here, I don't think mourning Iris requires the main characters to miss a skillset. Because people aren't skills, or power. They're mourning a loved one who used to comfort them, or give them support, or talk to them. Sometimes that's all people can do. Not all people can be gods, or genius, but I guess they're disposable and not worth attachment so we can all move on now.

I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls here, but I notice this trend here that if a person's ordinary they're disposable and unworthy of second thought and that people who fight crime can only surround themselves with useful people to fight crime with. That's ludicrous. Real cops and firefighters don't have to marry, or only befriend co-workers, tech genius's and doctors. Asking Barry, Cisco, Joe and Wally to do that is like Mensa breeding and fraternizing with crimesfighters and metas.:whatever:
 
Plus the synopsis suggest the team is impacted by their showdown with Savitar, not necessarily with Iris's death. I can see that impacting Barry, Wally and Joe, but I'm sure Cisco, Caitlin and Julian are impacted by the reveal, or whatever we don't know yet.
 
Halnbarry said:
Look I know it's a joke, but let's get real here, I don't think mourning Iris requires the main characters to miss a skillset. Because people aren't skills, or power. They're mourning a loved one who used to comfort them, or give them support, or talk to them. Sometimes that's all people can do. Not all people can be gods, or genius, but I guess they're disposable and not worth attachment so we can all move on now.

I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls here, but I notice this trend here that if a person's ordinary they're disposable and unworthy of second thought and that people who fight crime can only surround themselves with useful people to fight crime with. That's ludicrous. Real cops and firefighters don't have to marry, or only befriend co-workers, tech genius's and doctors. Asking Barry, Cisco, Joe and Wally to do that is like Mensa breeding and fraternizing with crimesfighters and metas.:whatever:
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I don't place a value on anyone's life based on their skills. I just don't like the idea that they've made Iris the epicenter of Team Flash's lives.


Barry watched both his mother and father murdered at the hand of evil speedsters. And yet it's the death of Iris that forever breaks him?

Cisco eventually found peace with his brother's death and Wally is slowly getting over the death of his mother. But for Iris to be labeled as the person that forever broke Team Flash is ludicrous. I just hope that whatever broke Team Flash had something more to do with their encounter with Savitar as opposed to just Iris's death.

I honestly hate on how characters like Barry and Joe lose all common sense when Iris's life is in danger.
 
With Joe I can understand because it's his daughter and Iris as his daughter is his constant, he's just gotten to know Wally and Cecile and Francine left him long ago. Cisco, it was his brother who he regretted not making amends with, but hardly someone who was a constant support in his life. We're seeing the gradual affects of Caitlin burying a bunch of deaths and what it's having on her psyche. With Barry, he lost his mom young, Henry was taken form him, Iris was again a constant part of his life and became the woman he loved. I've lost family members, but have never been in love myself, but it's sure often used as a device in fiction a lot for people losing it. I don't probably because you chose who you spend the rest of your life with, but you don't chose the family who raises you. There's also the idea that three too many deaths can in fact break a man who has the powers of a god to let the world go to hell. I think there's more going on than that, which I'll get to. As for the rest of the team again, nothing in the description actually suggests it's losing Iris that sets the team off.

As for Avenging Angels links, it's all just a bunch of Snowbarry shippers character bashing because they blew something out of proportion. Nothing in those links actually confirm anything more than what's in the description. It's peoples hysterical reactions and angry spewed venom for something that hasn't come to pass and grievances with what came before. None which suggests what they're reacting to will happen and whether the team is actually affected by Iris's death.

Perhaps, Barry failing to prevent something he tried to fix (Iris dying) catches him off guard and Savitar gets his move and messes everything down, including injuring Wally, Caitlin not reverting to normal because of what Savitar said to her, or Savitar predicted her turn and she plays into it, Cisco and Joe getting badly injured, or killed, or some other horrible fate. Barry then blames himself for getting caught up in saving Iris to prevent a worse future and then he has to make the decision to let Iris die. That's a thought. Maybe he can do better than Cloud Strife, or Peter Parker and let all live without sacrificing his girlfriend. That would be a new concept.
 
Halnbarry said:
Look I know it's a joke, but let's get real here, I don't think mourning Iris requires the main characters to miss a skillset. Because people aren't skills, or power. They're mourning a loved one who used to comfort them, or give them support, or talk to them. Sometimes that's all people can do. Not all people can be gods, or genius, but I guess they're disposable and not worth attachment so we can all move on now.

I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls here, but I notice this trend here that if a person's ordinary they're disposable and unworthy of second thought and that people who fight crime can only surround themselves with useful people to fight crime with. That's ludicrous. Real cops and firefighters don't have to marry, or only befriend co-workers, tech genius's and doctors. Asking Barry, Cisco, Joe and Wally to do that is like Mensa breeding and fraternizing with crimesfighters and metas.:whatever:
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Let's get real right back, then. This one of the most tv-ish shows out there right now, you use arche-type of characters left and right, you rehash one silly source for rom-drama after another, and the writers really do a miserable job of portraying the characters as unable to learn from their mistakes and grow - you don't see someone like that as a real person, there are idiots, of course, but usually they don't are the focus of your attention.

Iris and co aren't real people, they are characters portrayed for us viewers to grow fond of - that doesn't only mean them looking sexy or we being told that they are important, it also means them being interesting in an actual interesting way with actually showing them doing things and growing as a person.
Iris has been and done nothing of that sort this season so far, and it is odd how they try to pin so much importance on a character who brings really nothing to the table other than looks or someone Barry can pine over or make ridiculous decisions over. It is sad and really an insult to the actual character of Iris West, and I think most people who don't give a rat's ass about the possibility of her getting killed off do so because of that.

Don't get me wrong, I see your point, a person doesn't need to have skills or be especially good at anything to be loved and missed if they die, love doesn't work that way as we all know. Iris is a badly written fictional character, though. She is like a pretty ring, people want her, but we never really see why that is the case other than for her being pretty because her character is so flatly written more often than not - I would understand why the team mourns Cisco's demise in such a way, or Caitlins, even Joe, because we have seen them establish real strong bonds with each other (and even that would be difficult for me to believe) - it is certainly not the same with Iris for me.

You can't expect people to believe someone mourning the death of another person to a degree that they loose all hope when you never saw them actually get to such a level of closeness and trust, and love to begin with - that has nothing to do with being unfair towards Iris but all with the inability of the writers of this show to do their job.
 
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Eni, anyone can hate a character, and hate this show for it's bad writing, however, I see a trend where people flip out over what they think is going to happen and then it's often the next episode more context is given and it's not as big as people make it, or it doesn't happen. Big example being the episode where Barry breaks off his engagement. People flipped out and blamed Iris even though it was Barry's choice. Weird.

The problem with how they write Iris, is that she's an extension of Barry. She informs what kind of person he is. He's not with her because just because she's a hot trophy, it's because she's socially gracious where he and Star Labs are socially awkward. It's a common thing with male nerds in sitcoms and real life. Most scientists and academics look for women who seem to have it together (probably don't) can support their fragile ego (by listening and assuring them) and host dinner parties, not if they're talented in a field. It's lousy characterization for Iris, but it informs Barry, or the kind of person the writer's think he is.
 
Halnbarry said:
Eni, anyone can hate a character, and hate this show for it's bad writing, however, I see a trend where people flip out over what they think is going to happen and then it's often the next episode more context is given and it's not as big as people make it, or it doesn't happen. Big example being the episode where Barry breaks off his engagement. People flipped out and blamed Iris even though it was Barry's choice. Weird.

The problem with how they write Iris, is that she's an extension of Barry. She informs what kind of person he is. He's not with her because just because she's a hot trophy, it's because she's socially gracious where he and Star Labs are socially awkward. It's a common thing with male nerds in sitcoms and real life. Most scientists and academics look for women who seem to have it together (probably don't) can support their fragile ego (by listening and assuring them) and host dinner parties, not if they're talented in a field. It's lousy characterization for Iris, but it informs Barry, or the kind of person the writer's think he is.
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Halnbarry, I think we talk past each other here, since I do get where you are coming from with people 'flipping out' over what they assume happens next, but, seriously, none of the cheap cliffhangers the writer of this show worked with so far did deliver whatsoever and that has nothing to do with the characters but with the writers either not trying or not caring.

I still find the whole engagement fiasco quite amusing, and seriously, I hoped they would stick to them breaking things off at least for a while. It is funny that you think it wasn't at least partly due to Iris pretty much breaking things off with him when he clearly needed her that caused him to eventually consider to take break as well, though he, idiot he is, did that because he thought he is going to protect her that way... damn, that boy is so stupid at times on this show. Well, I don't say it was only because of Iris, but she too did play a role in the whole fiasco.

That is such a bull excuse for a character to be badly written. Seriously, because she is supposed to be an extension of Barry?! Wtf?! XD I mean, come on, I get what you try to say and maybe they really go for that, but to me that sounds just like an excuse you make so you don't have to bother to even try and make a character interesting.
Iris is her own person, she should be her own person, she is not a glove or a shoe someone can put on. Her being an 'extension' of Barry really doesn't make her anymore likable or excuses her lack of character development.
That makes it even harder to fathom why anybody would really give to ****s about her dying, I mean other than Joe and Barry - sure being sad over it, why not, but suddenly falling into a deep depression? Yeah, right...
 
Many men have fallen into funks and let their connections go after their significant other dies in real life. This has been studied in real life. I think Savitar has a bigger affect on the team dispersing than Barry's depression over Iris.

Our arguments are going in circles. You want to defend people who want Iris dead and Barry and Joe to come out fine when it contradicts actual examples of real life grief because she's not a strong character for us to care about and then say she's not an extension of Barry, she's her own character. The writer's sure don't think so. Every time they write any characterization in her, or let her do anything, or let her react to Barry's plays it's written off as barely mattering, or overreacting.

Speculation on my part because of bad writer's. I'm sure if they'd have let the two brake off the engagement, they'd have written Iris out until she was ready to die and Barry realizes what a fool he was. No growth for Iris in that scenario, but I guess people wanted Iris 100% on board with Barry marrying her against his free will to protect her instead of marrying her for the right reasons.

Now the thing you're not getting from my initial post is that people posting before were complaining about a plot point that's not confirmed in the description, or interview. Another person places links and agrees, implying they're confirmed sources when they're just a twitter thread bringing up old complaints that have nothing to do with whether Iris dying is solely at fault for a bad future. That's all. We can move on from that. Then more posts come in picking apart the real idea that Barry could actually grieve because the viewers wouldn't.
 
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Halnbarry said:
Many men have fallen into funks and let their connections go after their significant other dies in real life. This has been studied in real life. I think Savitar has a bigger affect on the team dispersing than Barry's depression over Iris.

Our arguments are going in circles. You want to defend people who want Iris dead and Barry and Joe to come out fine when it contradicts actual examples of real life grief because she's not a strong character for us to care about and then say she's not an extension of Barry, she's her own character. The writer's sure don't think so. Every time they write any characterization in her, or let her do anything, or let her react to Barry's plays it's written off as barely mattering, or overreacting.

Speculation on my part because of bad writer's. I'm sure if they'd have let the two brake off the engagement, they'd have written Iris out until she was ready to die and Barry realizes what a fool he was. No growth for Iris in that scenario, but I guess people wanted Iris 100% on board with Barry marrying her against his free will to protect her instead of marrying her for the right reasons.

Now the thing you're not getting from my initial post is that people posting before were complaining about a plot point that's not confirmed in the description, or interview. Another person places links and agrees, implying they're confirmed sources when they're just a twitter thread bringing up old complaints that have nothing to do with whether Iris dying is solely at fault for a bad future. That's all. We can move on from that. Then more posts come in picking apart the real idea that Barry could actually grieve because the viewers wouldn't.
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I find it amusing that you seem to try to put words into my mouth. When did I defend people who want Iris dead? Seriously? You clearly ignore what I wrote earlier or maybe you didn't read it, whatever. The point is that I wrote that Iris death affecting the others like that is unbelievable, it is laughable how they try to push such an importance onto her without back it with anything, thus I get how people find it the plot of the upcoming episode laughable.

Don't generalize people, that's a bad habit. Sure, there are guys who went into a downwards spiral - temporary and not - after their spouse/loved once dies, same thing goes for women, but how they portray that on most shows is laughable, they do it sloppy and without actually exploring it any meaningful way, and I am sure that it will be the exact same for the upcoming episode.

Barry loves Iris, I don't like how they portray it on the show - it comes over creepy and more like an obsession at times - but we know what the writers try to go for with it. Saying that Iris got all huffy and puffy over Barry asking for her hand in marriage because he asked her not for the right reason is an excuse to introduce more drama, nothing more to that. They try to portray both of them deeply in love, and they are not like a couple who only got together like six months ago, those two grew up together as sibling - one of the reasons I really find their relationship a little weird - and they know each other, or at least are supposed to. You can't tell me that Barry's proposal or his feelings were fake just because it came as a kneejerk reaction - many proposal happen like that. If Iris really has such doubts about his feelings, they seriously should not consider marry at all. But, again, it is artificial drama for drama's sake, nothing more. It is not about watching them progress as characters, it is only to get an emotion reaction of the viewers, and they certainly did, didn't they?

No, I got you just fine, I just think that this really isn't the reason why people, in this case, don't really buy that Iris' death can be that impactful to the STAR lab's team. The show just simply didn't earn it. They are friends, sure, but Iris is nowhere near as dear or close to Caitlin and Cisco as Barry is, and everybody getting so distraught over her passing is something you have to built up to. I may repeat myself, but that has nothing to do with context we know nothing about yet, but the writers missing out on establishing her in a way that would make the reactions of the others in next episode believable.
 
Part of the problem is, if a show is going to invoke the assumed "everything falls apart because Beloved Character dies" trope? It needs to reach beyond the fourth wall. The *audience* needs to love the character, first. That way, their own reaction to the death informs how they see the characters reacting.

The show has, to put it mildly, not done that. If anything its flirting with the opposite: the audience hoping the character will die, because they are useless and don't contribute anything to the narrative. I don't exactly *hate* Iris, but I think she has pretty much reached the point where the best thing she could do is actually die ( because her only reason for existing is inspiring emotional responses in Barry and Joe; she can still do that while dead, but also free up more screen time for other characters ). Not like they'd even have to get rid of Candice entirely, there's always alternate Earth versions of her who can appear at times.
 
Sorry Eni if I muddled your comments with others. I'm trying to read through all of them and address them. I might have confused your points with other poster's.

I am confused with what you're trying to defend that because shows don't show grief correctly (true) that no real life basis can inform bad writing? Also I'm not generalizing. I said many, not all, sorry I didn't go gender neutral and I'm not being snide there.
 
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And as for the point that Cisco, Caitlin and not to mention Julian and H.R. wouldn't miss Iris as Joe and Barry, I completely agree. Never suggested they would, or said it. I've only argued in Barry and Joe's point of view on the Iris issue. I don't think Iris dying will impact the whole team, just Barry, Joe and maybe Wally (who has other issues at stake).
 
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metaphysician said:
Not like they'd even have to get rid of Candice entirely, there's always alternate Earth versions of her who can appear at times.
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This constant redo with doppelgangers is getting old with Harrison. They're already doing Black Siren on Arrow. Knowing these writer's and their pet stock characters, she'll be a another cop love interest with a murdered father/husband/lover/partner like Earth-2 Iris, Dinah on Arrow, Cindy on Flash, or Patty last season. The easiest short hand these writer's do. It would also reinforce some obsession that Barry has with an idea of Iris, that a twin will do and then said twin has to break barriers with a guy who's lost her counterpart.

They should softboot the six years living together as children and actually develop the Iris they saddled themselves with. Or they'll pull an Arrow and kill Iris anyway bring in a new actress who's a new character named Iris "Ann" Russell (get it, comic lore!) who's a scientist and Barry's real equal.
 
When is this supposed to air?
 
I'm getting flashbacks to the future episode of the old show, and the episode of Charmed where Halliwell sisters go to the future.
 
Halnbarry said:
Sorry Eni if I muddled your comments with others. I'm trying to read through all of them and address them. I might have confused your points with other poster's.

I am confused with what you're trying to defend that because shows don't show grief correctly (true) that no real life basis can inform bad writing? Also I'm not generalizing. I said many, not all, sorry I didn't go gender neutral and I'm not being snide there.
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Sry, missed your response the first time around.

That's fine, discussing with more people than one can get confusing.

Nah, as I've been saying numerous times by now, they try to pull something off they have not earned yet. Iris is a damsel in distress, nothing more, nothing less, and they try to use her as a crutch to get a huge emotional response from both the viewers and the characters even though she is not that important, neither to the plot nor the characters themselves.

It sounded generalizing to me, but good thing if you didn't mean it that way. Being snide is fine, it doesn't really matter and arguments can make one a little emotional, especially if you feel strongly about that subject.
 
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