Justice League The Joss Whedon Thread

[Mani-Man]

Maybe that’s because they felt the need to meddle with Snyder, because he wasn’t doing a good enough job? They wouldn’t have meddled in his work if BvS had been a movie that was received well and did well at the cinema. WB didn’t meddle in Nolan’s work. You don’t hear anything from Patty because the film they made together was a huge success, and Wan only stayed around when he was guaranteed his own way.

Didnt WB meddle with everything right from the start when he began to work on MOS?

I dont know anymore.
I probably would have like Nolans movies more if they would have meddled with it, in ww the little involvement of WB seemed to have helped, they stay the hell away from Wan and let him do his thing, they completely butchered SS, they meddled with BvS, now the JL thing.

I dont know what to do with this Company. XD t:

Either way.
Im getting really worried about Batgirl now.
Its not that im against Whedon, i just fear we will get too much of his weirder mindest that he has developed over the years.
I dont think we will get him at his Buffy mindest, but at his age of ultron one...and im not sure if that is a good idea.
Im really unsure about Whedon having the reins firmly in his hands on this.

 

[FunkMiller]

Their meddling of his work FOR BvS caused it's reception to be worse than what it might have been. I'm not saying the UE would have been overwhelmingly positive, but many issues with the pacing and coherence of the plot would have been fixed. WB allowed Nolan to release 2hr 45 mins film for TDKR. WB didn't touch Patty's film. Their meddling with BvS caused it's reception to drastically worse than what it would have been.

I’ll disagree with you on this, given that if they had released the UC into theatres, I think it would have been greeted slightly better... but only slightly. However, you are absolutely right to point out that the UC is the better film. Nolan was given carte blanch because his last movie made over a billion, and was a cultural touchstone. Man Of Steel was divisive, and underperformed.

There’s really two seperate issues here:

One - the ongoing meddling of film studios in the creativity of film makers (WB aren’t the only ones guilty of this), and the negative effect this has on the finished product.

Two - the quality of Zack Snyder’s work in specific.

I believe that the quality of his work is low, so some studio meddling was inevitable, but I do believe that ultimately when studio executives start to dictate the creative process, it it by and large a negative thing.

Snyder’s work was certainly hurt by WB’s meddling, but arguably that work wasn’t good enough in the first place, and meddling was sadly inevitable.

I probably would have like Nolans movies more if they would have meddled with it, in ww the little involvement of WB seemed to have helped, they stay the hell away from Wan and let him do his thing, they completely butchered SS, they meddled with BvS, now the JL thing.

And that’s an entirely reasonable position for you to have personally. I myself have a lot of problems with The Dark Knight Rises.

However, TDKR made over a billion at the box office and was a roaring success with the audience, as was the entire trilogy, so objectively it was a good thing that they didn’t meddle, and allowed Nolan to do what he wanted.

 

[markjoedelonge]

I’ll disagree with you on this, given that if they had released the UC into theatres, I think it would have been greeted slightly better... but only slightly. However, you are absolutely right to point out that the UC is the better film. Nolan was given carte blanch because his last movie made over a billion, and was a cultural touchstone. Man Of Steel was divisive, and underperformed.

There’s really two seperate issues here:

One - the ongoing meddling of film studios in the creativity of film makers (WB aren’t the only ones guilty of this), and the negative effect this has on the finished product.

Two - the quality of Zack Snyder’s work in specific.

I believe that the quality of his work is low, so some studio meddling was inevitable, but I do believe that ultimately when studio executives start to dictate the creative process, it it by and large a negative thing.

Snyder’s work was certainly hurt by WB’s meddling, but arguably that work wasn’t good enough in the first place, and meddling was sadly inevitable.

Yes, that's why I said releasing the UC in theatres would have garnered a better reception, but not so much since the issues with characterization and tone would still be there. I think the main issue here is really WB's meddling with the directors visions. It's understandable if you're using Snyder as an example, because he doesn't have a good track record. But remember that WB apparently gave his cut of BVS a standing ovation. They only cut the film to shambles in an attempt to gain more money. It ended up backfiring on them. Now, they saw Snyder's cut of JL and panicked and brought in Joss. It's also apparently backfired on them. Since MOS, I don't think everyone has been given a fair chance to judge Snyder's work, and besides that being unfair to the director, it's also unfair to us as the GA.

I see a lot of people talking about how the quality of Snyder's films is what causes WB to meddle. How about Ayer then? Did they have little confidence in his original cut or something, to justify them meddling again by demanding reshoots to lighten the tone and hiring the trailer company to edit the movie. It backfired on them again (although they might have seen this as a success due to SS earning big bucks).

Why aren't we allowed to see the film as the director intended us to see it? You don't see this issue with MCU or Fox's Marvel movies. It's honestly baffling and infuriating.

 

[Cobblepot]

I never understood why they felt the need to cut BVS shorter and left TDKR (a snoozefest of a movie) alone.

 

[Mani-Man]

And that’s an entirely reasonable position for you to have personally. I myself have a lot of problems with The Dark Knight Rises.

However, TDKR made over a billion at the box office and was a roaring success with the audience, as was the entire trilogy, so objectively it was a good thing that they didn’t meddle, and allowed Nolan to do what he wanted.

Absolutly.
It might not be after my personal taste, but you cant deny that it worked out for WB spectacular.

The simple truth is that with or without WB meddling on Snyders movies, this universe wouldnt have been THE outstanding franchise we all hoped.
It could have been slightly stronger, but the main problems would still be there.

 

[FunkMiller]

I see a lot of people talking about how the quality of Snyder's films is what causes WB to meddle. How about Ayer then? Did they have little confidence in his original cut or something, to justify them meddling again by demanding reshoots to lighten the tone and hiring the trailer company to edit the movie. It backfired on them again (although they might have seen this as a success due to SS earning big bucks).

Why aren't we allowed to see the film as the director intended us to see it? You don't see this issue with MCU or Fox's Marvel movies. It's honestly baffling and infuriating.

SS was butchered as a direct result of the poor reception to BvS. The lighter movie was too dark, so then they tried to make the dark movie too light. Reactionary stupidity.

And sorry to sound like a broken record, but you don’t see the same over at Marvel because the films they are making are box office and critical successes, and are all tightly controlled creatively from the top. Fox movies have suffered with studio meddling in the past, but recently the quality of their output has risen, so there’s less of it going on.

You’ll hate me for saying this, but the common denominator at WB is Snyder’s output. A divisive and underperforming MoS leads to the studio feeling they need to meddle in BvS, which is divisive and underperforms, which leads to interference with SS. They shouldn’t have brought him back for BvS.

Money is always the motivating factor. If Snyder made successful movies, his work wouldn’t get meddled with.

 

[FunkMiller]

I never understood why they felt the need to cut BVS shorter and left TDKR (a snoozefest of a movie) alone.

Really? That 1.1 billion dollars at the box office doesn’t give you any clues?

 

[markjoedelonge]

SS was butchered as a direct result of the poor reception to BvS. The lighter movie was too dark, so then they tried to make the dark movie too light. Reactionary stupidity.

And sorry to sound like a broken record, but you don’t see the same over at Marvel because the films they are making are box office and critical successes, and are all tightly controlled creatively from the top. Fox movies have suffered with studio meddling in the past, but recently the quality of their output has risen, so there’s less of it going on.

You’ll hate me for saying this, but the common denominator at WB is Snyder’s output. A divisive and underperforming MoS leads to the studio feeling they need to meddle in BvS, which is divisive and underperforms, which leads to interference with SS. They shouldn’t have brought him back for BvS.

Money is always the motivating factor. If Snyder made successful movies, his work wouldn’t get meddled with.

Yes I agree that Snyder is to blame for creating divisive films that have underperformed at the box office. But following BvS and JL, WB put Geoff Johns, presumably, as the Feige of the DC Films department right? So they do have a man to control the creative decisions from the top now. I think the real test for the DCEU will come during Aquaman and after that. JL was always going to struggle. What we got was the best possible outcome we could have hoped for, especially for a film with such a troubled production.

 

[FunkMiller]

Yes I agree that Snyder is to blame for creating divisive films that have underperformed at the box office. But following BvS and JL, WB put Geoff Johns, presumably, as the Feige of the DC Films department right? So they do have a man to control the creative decisions from the top now. I think the real test for the DCEU will come during Aquaman and after that. JL was always going to struggle. What we got was the best possible outcome we could have hoped for, especially for a film with such a troubled production.

Completely agree

What we’re going to move into now is a phase 2 of the DCEU (for want of a term not so associated with the MCU) where we should hopefully move past the creative mistakes and poor decisions of the last four years. JL’s eventual final box office take will determine a lot of how that phase 2 progresses.

 

[Mani-Man]

Completely agree

What we’re going to move into now is a phase 2 of the DCEU (for want of a term not so associated with the MCU) where we should hopefully move past the creative mistakes and poor decisions of the last four years. JL’s eventual final box office take will determine a lot of how that phase 2 progresses.

Yes.
Lets wait for the numbers and then let phase 1 end.
Snyders vision didnt work out as hoped, so use phase 2 for a vision that does work for the GA and the Comic Book fans.
Snyders ideas simply dont do that for both.

Aquaman has a hard standing now, it will be tough for the movie but i can see it being next to wonder woman in showing WB how the DCCU can succeed.

 

[Cobblepot]

Really? That 1.1 billion dollars at the box office doesn’t give you any clues?

It didn't deserve 1.1 billion. It was flawed on so many levels. I find it almost unwatchable.

 

[flickchick85]

It didn't deserve 1.1 billion. It was flawed on so many levels. I find it almost unwatchable.

That's fine for you, but the fact is Christopher Nolan earned the confidence of WB execs through several films that exceeded expectations both critically and financially. So they weren't about to step in and meddle with his film and risk upsetting their golden goose. Snyder earned no such confidence.

 

[FunkMiller]

That's fine for you, but the fact is Christopher Nolan earned the confidence of WB execs through several films that exceeded expectations both critically and financially. So they weren't about to step in and meddle with his film and risk upsetting their golden goose. Snyder earned no such confidence.

Couldn’t have put it better

 

[BatLobster]

Couldn’t have put it better

And not only that, but TDKR's runtime is a result of Nolan aiming to make a robust movie that was still under 3 hours. He knew that from the beginning, as per The Art and Making of TDKT Book. The edits were mostly at the script level. There's cut bits and pieces of course, but there's not a totally different version of movie with missing subplots on the cutting room floor somewhere. He made the movie he told WB he was going to make. Now you can argue the movie would've actually benefited from a bit more breathing room in its running time (as I would), but there's very little screentime wasted there. It doesn't go on random tangents that have nothing to do with the plot to set up future movies.

I don't know what happened with BvS, but a 3+ hour R rated cut was never going to pass the gatekeepers. I don't know if WB shockingly didn't realize what they were greenlighting, or just got gold feet at the last minute but...yeah. You can't even compare the two situations.

Nolan and Snyder were both given creative freedom, but Nolan used it way more responsibly.

 

[Boom]

We live in a world where an R-rated Superman and Batman movie was made. Crazy times.

 

[FunkMiller]

We live in a world where an R-rated Superman and Batman movie was made. Crazy times.

I keep forgetting that. Idiotic.

 

[kguillou]

Whedon's silence on this film is really frustrating. He's going to be interrogated by the press about this sooner or later, so wouldnt it be better to rip the band aid off now and get in front of all of this and say his piece? Cuz, its looking more and more like he really doesnt give a **** about this film.

 

[obredaan]

Whedon's silence on this film is really frustrating. He's going to be interrogated by the press about this sooner or later, so wouldnt it be better to rip the band aid off now and get in front of all of this and say his piece? Cuz, its looking more and more like he really doesnt give a **** about this film.

What do you want him to say? It's not hard to figure out what happened. WB meddled and mandated the 2-hour runtime and reshot 20% of the film all within a few months of opening. He did what he could with a short amount of time and followed the mandate to remove evil Superman and add more humour to the film. Just cause he hasn't said anything doesn't mean he doesn't care about the film. Maybe he's being quiet out of respect for Snyder? The uproar over his tweet was comical though. People took it as a dig against Snyder but I think he was taking a shot at WB cause everything involved with Steppenwolf had to be changed and reworked in order to fit the new mandates from the suits.

 

[Consona]

I keep forgetting that. Idiotic.

We live in a world where critics consider MCU films to be "phenomenal". That's idiotic.

 

[Consona]

What do you want him to say? It's not hard to figure out what happened. WB meddled and mandated the 2-hour runtime and reshot 20% of the film all within a few months of opening. He did what he could with a short amount of time and followed the mandate to remove evil Superman and add more humour to the film. Just cause he hasn't said anything doesn't mean he doesn't care about the film. Maybe he's being quiet out of respect for Snyder? The uproar over his tweet was comical though. People took it as a dig against Snyder but I think he was taking a shot at WB cause everything involved with Steppenwolf had to be changed and reworked in order to fit the new mandates from the suits.

The only thing he did was liking that tweet about how Steppenwolf sucks as a villain. What a way to break the silence.

 

[kguillou]

What do you want him to say? It's not hard to figure out what happened. WB meddled and mandated the 2-hour runtime and reshot 20% of the film all within a few months of opening. He did what he could with a short amount of time and followed the mandate to remove evil Superman and add more humour to the film. Just cause he hasn't said anything doesn't mean he doesn't care about the film. Maybe he's being quiet out of respect for Snyder? The uproar over his tweet was comical though. People took it as a dig against Snyder but I think he was taking a shot at WB cause everything involved with Steppenwolf had to be changed and reworked in order to fit the new mandates from the suits.

Say something, though. For all intents and purposes this is sort of half his film now. He made a ton of changes. Say something to promote it or encouraging words for it. I dunno, to me it feels like Whedon wrote this thing off. It feels like WB wrote this thing off and just threw it out there with no word from the guy who actually put the film together. Stand up for it. Sooner or later he's gonna get nagged about it anyway so might as well get his version of the story out there.

 

[JOE]

We live in a world where critics consider MCU films to be "phenomenal". That's idiotic.

*Takes one look at MOS and BvS in signature*

Hey look, it’s someone throwing stones who lives in a glass house!

 

[I Am The Knight]

Whedon's silence on this film is really frustrating. He's going to be interrogated by the press about this sooner or later, so wouldnt it be better to rip the band aid off now and get in front of all of this and say his piece? Cuz, its looking more and more like he really doesnt give a **** about this film.

He'll probably want to distance himself from this for a while, but he'll probably talk about it during production of Batgirl, assuming it does get made.

 

[FunkMiller]

We live in a world where critics consider MCU films to be "phenomenal". That's idiotic.

Is this going to be the defence from now on when anyone criticises WB decision making?

“B...b...but Marvel! But critics!”

A comment about the poor decision to make BvS as an R rated movie, has literally nothing to do with Marvel or critics, so why even bring it up?

People get annoyed and whine about how they hate Marvel comparisons and the ‘war’ between fans. Not bringing them up on an entirely unrelated topic would be a good start in stopping all that.

 

[obredaan]

Say something, though. For all intents and purposes this is sort of half his film now. He made a ton of changes. Say something to promote it or encouraging words for it. I dunno, to me it feels like Whedon wrote this thing off. It feels like WB wrote this thing off and just threw it out there with no word from the guy who actually put the film together. Stand up for it. Sooner or later he's gonna get nagged about it anyway so might as well get his version of the story out there.

You seem to be reading into whatever you want. Assuming his silence has to do with him writing off the film is your perception but nobody knows. I think he's laying low until Batgirl gets figured out and I doubt Whedon would've spent the last 6 months working on the project if he didn't care about it. I don't see Snyder coming out and saying all that much either and for all intents and purposes, he still has the only credit as a Director on the film.