The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - Part 9

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Are you saying that we would suddenly get a trailer with a really dark tone?

He's expecting a trailer where Diana says, ""Big man in a suit of armour. Take that off, what are you?"

Bruce: "Genius billionaire playboy philanthropist, I'm the Batman"

*We're in this together song plays at the background, as Aquaman looks at cars exploding, butt facing the camera, fans go :hmr:

Bruce stares at his Bat suit.

Diana and Mera sandwich a parademon to knock him out

Silas Stone with a bazooka

Steppenwolf throws Bruce Wayne out of a building

post trailer credit scene - all members of JL standing in a circle, on top of the batmobil, looking up.

Cut to black, boom, herolee cries, fanboy war ensues.
 
He's expecting a trailer where Diana says, ""Big man in a suit of armour. Take that off, what are you?"

Bruce: "Genius billionaire playboy philanthropist, I'm the Batman"

*We're in this together song plays at the background, as Aquaman looks at cars exploding, butt facing the camera, fans go :hmr:

Bruce stares at his Bat suit.

Diana and Mera sandwich a parademon to knock him out

Silas Stone with a bazooka

Steppenwolf throws Bruce Wayne out of a building

post trailer credit scene - all members of JL standing in a circle, on top of the batmobil, looking up.

Cut to black, boom, herolee cries, fanboy war ensues.

Then Alan Silvestri music plays over the title screen. :sly:
 
can you please point out where snyderman actually verbalizes any of this in the film? i only remember reaction shots of snyderman frowning toward the people who don't like or question him.

Sure, I can. One of the most obvious themes in the movie was about powerlessness and what people do when they do or do not have power. Part of the exploration of that theme was that at Superman's lowest point, the lesson he needs to learn isn't to be okay with people not getting him. It's to cope with the unintended consequences of his actions or, to put it more simply, to come to terms with his agency in the world. However, the entire film, like other DCEU films including Wonder Woman, was about choices.

Diana learns that humanity is capable of dark and light, and that light is a choice and thus gods like her shouldn't interfere. Superman's journey in BvS changes that, creating a paradigm shift. Caught between the extremes of the ultimate hero of man, Batman, and the ultimate hero of the gods or the last Olympian, Wonder Woman, Superman is neither man nor god. He is a Super Man. He is a man who has the powers of a god, but the agency and fallibility of a human. Accordingly, he has the potential to be, as Jonathan put it, someone who can change the world just by acting on his good character or his bad character. Humanity and Superman reconciling the conflict between their mutual agency and power in the world is crucial both to the narrative of BvS and to establishing the foundation for the Justice League going forward.

Let's look more closely at Superman's journey in BvS, then, shall we? At first, Clark reacts to the scrutiny of Superman with ease, telling Lois that he didn't kill anyone in Africa, and that he doesn't regret choosing to save her life. He focuses on Batman, who he believes is the real danger. He even defends Superman to Bruce at the library gala when he says, "Most of the world doesn't share your opinion, Mr. Wayne." What's interesting here is that Clark's concerns about Batman are because Batman continues to behave in a way that is harming people and inflaming fears, despite public criticism in the newspaper (and criticism from allies like Alfred). The message is clear that a humble and true hero is one who is willing to listen and consider concerns and not one who considers himself above criticism.

However, as time passes, he comes to see how even a choice like that can have unintended consequences, like the government reprisals on those living in the villages. He listens intently to Kahina on the news, and when Senator June Finch speaks at the end of the news montage, she speaks about Superman's choices. It's also addressed in this part of the film:

Finch: How do we determine what's good? In a democracy, good is a conversation not a unilateral decision. So, I urge Superman, to come to this hearth of the people tomorrow, to see those who have suffered. The world needs to know what happened in that desert. And to know what he stands for. How far will he take his power. Does he act by our will, or by his own?

Martha: People hate what they don't understand But they see what you do, and they know who you are.


For Finch, and the movie, the conflict is about whether the relationship between Superman and the public -- god and man -- is a unilateral decision or a conversation. A person who doesn't care what people think of him or about people not getting him, and proceeding to never reflect or change, is someone who would be a god-like tyrant worthy of humanity's and Bruce's fears. A person who does care enough to engage with their concerns, is someone who is trying to be the bridge Jor-El always wanted Kal to be. Clark, in other words, isn't moping about people not getting him. He's struggling with how his actions have consequences and how to define and engage with the public he is protecting. He seeks out Kahina to speak with her, and he goes to the Capitol to address the public's concerns.

Earlier in the film, Clark stands up for journalism saying that "when you assign a story, you're making a choice about who matters and who's worth it," and that is something humanity is struggling with. It's not so much about not getting Superman or Clark feeling misunderstood. The major conflict or area of concern is about choices and actions, and how much agency or power Superman should have to act according to his will and his will alone. It's about how both sides of this divide can coexist with each feeling secure in each other's agency, as the montage dialogue illustrates:

Vikram Gandhi: We, as a population on this planet, have been looking for a savior. Ninety percent of people believe in a higher power — and every religion believes in some sort messianic figure. And when this savior character actually comes to Earth, we want to make him abide by our rules? We have to understand that this is a paradigm shift. We have to start thinking beyond politics.

Andrew Sullivan: Are there any moral constraints on this person? We have international law. On this Earth, every act is a political act.

Charlie Rose: Is it really surprising that the most powerful man in the world should be a figure of controversy?
Senator June Finch: To have an individual engaging in these state-level interventions should give us all pause.

Glenn Woodburn: Human beings have a horrible track record of following people with great power down paths that led to huge human atrocities.

Vikram Gandhi: We have always created icons in our own image. What we've done is we project ourselves on to him. The fact is, maybe he's not some sort of Devil or Jesus character. Maybe he’s just a guy trying to do the right thing.

Neil deGrasse Tyson: We're talking about a being whose very existence challenges our own sense of priority in the Universe. When you go back to Copernicus where he restored the Sun in the center of the known universe, displacing Earth, and you get to Darwinian evolution and you find out we're not special on this Earth; we're just one among other lifeforms. And now we learn that we're not even special in the entire Universe — because there is Superman. There he is, an alien among us. We're not alone.

Charlie Rose: Are you, as a United States Senator, personally comfortable saying to a grieving parent, "Superman could've saved your child, but on principle we did not want him to act."
Senator June Finch: I'm not saying he shouldn't act. I'm saying he shouldn't act unilaterally.
Charlie Rose: What are we talking about here then? Must there be a Superman?
Senator June Finch: There is.


The memory of Jonathan's is what addressed this key aspect of Superman's characterization and the plot when Jonathan recalled "We worked 'til I think I fainted, but we managed to stop the water. We saved the farm. Your grandma baked me a cake, said I was a hero. Later that day we found out we blocked the water alright - we sent it upstream. A whole Lang farm washed away. While I ate my hero cake, their horses were drowning. I used to hear them wailing in my sleep." To which Clark asked, "Did the nightmares ever stop?" and Jonathan responded, "Yeah. When I met your mother. She gave me faith that there's good in this world. She was my world."

It's a variation on the message in Man of Steel and Diana's experiences with Steve in Wonder Woman. In Man of Steel, Martha teaches young Clark that when the world seems to big, to make it small. In Wonder Woman, Diana learns to accept and believe in humanity as beings of agency as a result of Steve's example. Clark's character arcs reach their resolutions when he recommits to his mission as Superman and later dies for a doubting public, because, as Diana would put it, he chooses love in the abstract (the world) and the specific (Lois) even though he knows there is still the darkness of humanity's doubt and the possibility he will make decisions with unintended negative consequences.

What about you? Can you point out where in the visuals and script you got the impression that Cavill's Superman had "the depth of character of a mopey teenager complaining about how the world just doesn't 'get' him" and who was "just a really unlikable, boring and one-dimensional" character? To help, you should first define what a one-dimensional character is according to you and according to professional writers. Then, try to locate when Superman complained about the world not getting him. Also, consider your preference for people who don't care about people not getting them. Is that the kind of attitude you would want someone like Zack Snyder or DC/WB executives to have about Snyder's movies? They should just not care about audiences not liking or getting what they were going for? To not want to listen and learn from the people who are affected by your choices is not the ideal way to behave.

many people with equally valid opinions, including actual creatives involved in writing superman comics disagree with you.

That doesn't make their opinions any more right or valid than mine.
 
He's expecting a trailer where Diana says, ""Big man in a suit of armour. Take that off, what are you?"

Bruce: "Genius billionaire playboy philanthropist, I'm the Batman"

*We're in this together song plays at the background, as Aquaman looks at cars exploding, butt facing the camera, fans go :hmr:

Bruce stares at his Bat suit.

Diana and Mera sandwich a parademon to knock him out

Silas Stone with a bazooka

Steppenwolf throws Bruce Wayne out of a building

post trailer credit scene - all members of JL standing in a circle, on top of the batmobil, looking up.

Cut to black, boom, herolee cries, fanboy war ensues.

no i just think it's going to be consciously less snyder-y/bvs vibes and there's probably going to be more wonder woman
 
no i just think it's going to be consciously less snyder-y/bvs vibes and there's probably going to be more wonder woman

Just as it was stated many times before they said the plan is to keep the same visuals and tone that Snyder already set up. So I doubt you are going to get that.
 
Trust me the next Justice League trailer will be like the last and the comic con footage. In fact it will have another White Stripes song.
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Then Alan Silvestri music plays over the title screen. :sly:

Nono, instead we get John Williams' Superman theme, theater audience erupt with nostalgia, standing ovation.

The hypsters in the crowd:

giphy.gif
 
^LOL wait, is that the actual dialogue from the panel?
 
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The tone of Justice League is totally going to change guys. The next trailer will have no dialogue or sound other than this playing throughout the trailer.:o
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I don't get the idea that the next trailer will be some kind of tonal shift.

To which I have to ask... Was the Comic Con trailer and the teaser actually some dark and foreboding tone? Why the assumption that Whedon's material will pop as being so much "lighter" in a trailer?

Let's review and let the reading public out there in internet land decide.

Avengers full teaser:
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Justice League Comic Con reel:
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Avengers Second trailer:
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Justice League teaser:
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Aesthetic choices aside (showing the difference in the two directors yadda-yadda...) is there really a wildly different narrative tone between these two groups of trailers? As much as aesthetics can and do affect the interpretation of tone in a movie... Is this really the difference between DRIVE and THE FAST AND THE FURIOUS? Cuz there's use of heavy sounding rock, quips/humor to leaven an action heavy thrust and a sense of bringing a team together and showcasing some of the dynamic on both sides. They both do that. Would anything other than say the showcasing of Whedon's particular brand of humor really stand out in the next trailer given that the two already made aren't, aside from the aesthetics of each director, pretty much both showing a tent pole super hero film that contain action, character and humor beats?
 
Batman: "no one needs to break anything"
Steppenwolf: "you've never made omelette before?"
Flash: "ah, too late"
Batman: "actually, Martha makes it for me..." *sobs sadly...
*Sup's coffin vibrates, Sup breaks out, "what did you say?! Why did you say that!?"
*flashback of Clark and Martha, a beautiful lie score kicks in.
Diana dives in: "that's his mother's name".....
 
Maybe we'll see Gal's hairless pits again and another SJW rant will ensue. To tell you the truth I'm surprised I haven't seen any complaints about her "skirt " being too short.

They don't mind her showing off her thighs, just her armpits. :hehe:
 
Maybe we'll see Gal's hairless pits again and another SJW rant will ensue. To tell you the truth I'm surprised I haven't seen any complaints about her "skirt " being too short.

Patty Jenkins never frames Diana in a way that panders to the male gaze, that's why. The skirt's length is presented in a strictly practical manner for combat. It's one of the great things about the movie, and Snyder/Whedon had better follow suit in JL - to the point of letting Jenkins have oversight on it, I'd say.
 
Replace the skirt with a thong.
 
Patty Jenkins never frames Diana in a way that panders to the male gaze, that's why. The skirt's length is presented in a strictly practical manner for combat. It's one of the great things about the movie, and Snyder/Whedon had better follow suit in JL - to the point of letting Jenkins have oversight on it, I'd say.

Riiiight...

The guy that oversaw the casting of the character, the development of the costume, drafted the story her solo film is based on, whose stunt team was called on to realize the character's action in said solo film and, oh yeah, had already premiered the character in his own film where no one had legitimate complaints about "the male gaze" or "the length of the battle skirt" because Wonder Woman was presented so well... Yeah, he and creator of BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER require "oversight".


I'm sorry... That's silliness. There's nothing to respect in that opinion because there's not real reasoning, evidence or logic backing it up.
 
If we don't tread lightly Whedon will have Wonder Woman flashing her vagina Basic Instinct style.

Save it for the extended cut.
 
If we don't tread lightly Whedon will have Wonder Woman flashing her vagina Basic Instinct style.

Save it for the extended cut.

Whedon? No. Obviously Snyder's original vision was to have Diana change to an outfit that was nothing but silk panties and nipple tassels. Then she performs ******io on the whole team for reasons and then Frank Miller was supposed to appear as Darkseid, call her a ****e, natch, and then kill her. WB wanted him to tone it down a bit, but he refused. They brought in Whedon because, ya know, he's a misogynist, just not quite the level of Snyder, what with his years of being praised for championing female characters on screen and female talent behind the scenes. :o
 
Riiiight...

The guy that oversaw the casting of the character, the development of the costume, drafted the story her solo film is based on, whose stunt team was called on to realize the character's action in said solo film and, oh yeah, had already premiered the character in his own film where no one had legitimate complaints about "the male gaze" or "the length of the battle skirt" because Wonder Woman was presented so well... Yeah, he and creator of BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER require "oversight".


I'm sorry... That's silliness. There's nothing to respect in that opinion because there's not real reasoning, evidence or logic backing it up.

Er... I don't make any criticism of the way Snyder handled Diana in my comment. I just stated the way Jenkins handled Diana in her movie, and expressed a hope that it continues through JL and onwards. I'll stand by my comment about how Whedon will hopefully carry it on, given that his own Wonder Woman script wasn't exactly the best in terms of its female portrayal. And Snyder did make Sucker Punch. Though, as I say, I make no criticism of the way he handled Diana in BvS.
 
Patty Jenkins never frames Diana in a way that panders to the male gaze, that's why. The skirt's length is presented in a strictly practical manner for combat. It's one of the great things about the movie, and Snyder/Whedon had better follow suit in JL - to the point of letting Jenkins have oversight on it, I'd say.

Snyder introduced WW in BvS, and there was no male gaze in that movie. Neither was it there in MOS, or Sucker Punch or his other movies. Its one aspect that really cant be debated.

Read this, a woman's thoughts on how female characters are treated in his movies :

http://atheistj.tumblr.com/post/151040092305/so-im-making-a-very-pro-zack-snyder-post-right

I dont have much idea about Joss Whedon's filmography apart from the Avengers, but he is known to be a feminist, so... I guess that counts, but I cant say anything from my own experience here.
 
Male gaze... what a terrible term.
 
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Another totally legitimate DCEU leak.
 
Male gaze... what a terrible term.

A poncy university term for sure, but the idea that women are framed for the benefit of male pleasure a great deal of the time in movies is a valid and obvious one. As is the fact that Diana is not framed in that way... which is a very good thing.
 
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