The Dark Knight The Man Who Laughs: The Joker Thread 2.0

[Joker]

Uh...What gore? Other than the page with what he's fantasizing about doing to Gordon, Nightwing, and Robin, he isn't doing anything gory. The newscaster who's suffering from Joker Toxin (not a gorey way to go, really, and a classic Joker method) is laughing while asking why he finds the phrase "laughing up their guts" funny. If we saw the Joker hacking up people with a machete and then licking up their blood, I'd agree with you. For gods sake, he's even wearing a smock as not to get his suit dirty, which you can see he has on underneath via his shoes.

 

[ronny]

The point he's trying to make is not that The Joker doesn't find death funny, but that Morrison is pushing the "gore" angle to make the "sick joke", whereas The Joker tends to be a bit more refined than that.

I kind of agree. He's a showman, he likes the drama and theatricality of his crimes. He does not - in every instance - start slicing people up. But that is something he's capable of. If he goes down that road he seems to pick his targets carefully so that they are something of an example. A lot like Nicholson's "homicidal artist" approach. That's exactly how The Joker is, he enjoys what he does, it amuses him. And in terms of crime he is something of an elitist. I think he'd look down on serial killers as uninspired and dull. To him it's all about the spectacle and giving people something to remember him by.

 

[Crook]

And in terms of crime he is something of an elitist. I think he'd look down on serial killers as uninspired and dull.

Sums it all up, right there.

I'm very curious to see how Joker kills people in this movie. If it's just through explosions and gunshots, I'm gonna be very disappointed. Joker's very much a showman, and his murders should be something that sets itself apart from other serial killers.

 

[Joker]

Well we know he [blackout]breaks into a hospital dressed as a nurse to kill the mayor[/blackout]. That's pretty theatrical.

 

[Crook]

I'm glad they're playing up that morbid humor a bit, but in the end it's still a pretty normal kill.

 

[Nepenthes]

Why does every single murder have to be outrageously theatrical? So he fanatises about murdering some heroes in a fairly routine manner.....big deal. He's not some cartoon character that must act a certain, simplified way. That people look past everything else in the issue and choose only to whinge about this is just desperate and moronic.


To me, the line "it's all in the timing" seems incredibly foreboding. Why now? What's happened recently to make this 'the moment', so to speak? Figuring this out might make the Jokers murder fantasy that much funnier.

also, "the son of Satan is my brother?' WTF IS THAT

 

[regwec]

Well we know he [blackout]breaks into a hospital dressed as a nurse to kill the mayor[/blackout]. That's pretty theatrical.

Please can we use spoiler tags when discussing comics, too?

 

[Joker]

Soon as we post some actual spoilers yeah. I dont think "the Joker is involved and has a fantasy while being shown some rorshach tests" is a spoiler.

And, Nepenthes, obviously what Tim is saying with that line is that he thinks Bruce is the devil. Or something. Maybe he was just making an Omen refference, I dont usually understand half of what's going on with Morrisons writing anymore, so I'm just going with it now for the awesome art.

 

[Nepenthes]

obviously what Tim is saying with that line is that he thinks Bruce is the devil. Or something. Maybe he was just making an Omen refference,

That still makes no sense. Tim knows Bruce is not the devil and we know Damien is not his brother. Unless Tim is also Bruce's son, shock twist

I don't think it's meant to be read literally, but it does seem like something that will become fairly signifigant. There's something to all the Satan stuff. Jezebal, the Third Man's family, Damien as the future Batman. We just don't know what 'Satan' is suppoosed to represent in the context of this story. I doubt it actually refers to Lucifer himself...

There's also something weird happening where Tim says 'time out' and the scene abruptly ends. More fourth wall talking to the reader right here. It's almost like Tim realises he's *gasp* in a comic book or something. ha ha j/k

 

[regwec]

I haven't read the comic yet (no spoilers please!), but isn't "devil" or "daemon" generally a reference to Ra's al Ghul and his family? Damien is of that line, and his name is clearly chosen to give Satanic overtones. In the generally awesome 666 issue, hadn't he sold his soul, anyway?

 

[Keyser Soze]

I don't see where people are getting this "Oh The Joker's too refined to kill anyone violently" mentality from. In my opinion, The Joker is NOT refined. He's a vulgar, sadistic beast who believes himself to be refined, and the way he presents himself is a twisted mockery of class and taste.

Murder is violent. Doesn't matter if you do it with a knife and gun, or with some toy-based gimmick weapons. In fact, one thing Grant Morrison did excellently in his Joker prose issue was illustrate just how horrifically violent and gory The Joker's "playful" deaths really are. Like, the Laughing Gas. What exactly are the logistics of one laughing themselves to death? Morrison presents people as laughing for so long, and so violently, that they end up coughing up their insides. Then there's the old exploding cigar gag. Morrison neatly describes the wet pop of brains splattering the ceiling as it goes boom. And let's think about this one. The Joker's acid trick flower, and his hand-buzzer. I point you to "Infinite Crisis". What really is so refined and classy about that? I'd say that's just as violent and debauched (if not moreso) than cutting someone up with a butcher knife.

I think the compelling dichotomy with The Joker is that he's grinning, and making one-liners, and creating the image of a trickster, while in fact he's commiting very dark, very violent, very dirty acts. Like, no matter how much razmatazz he surrounds his acts with, there really is no glamour in what he does. I mean, someone showed us a scene from "Devil's Advocate" to try and "prove" that The Joker is not a violent killer. But they declined to post an equally famous panel from the same comic:

 

[regwec]

You're both right, in a way. What's interesting is that, while The Joker is reminiscing about a particularly violent murder, it ias actually the expermiemental angle which interests him. A bloodthirsty serial killer like Zsasz would have told that story in a completely different way.

 

[branwen]

Lovely panel, KS.

And yes with the Joker and his experimental angle. It's one of the things I like about him, and Scarecrow, which is why their interaction fascinates me a lot, and I could completely use about 2 hours' worth of screen time between them which I know won't happen at all whatsoever but a gal can dream........

 

[Patty]

Keyser that is an EPIC panel right there. Am I a bad person for laughing at that? LoL

 

[Joker]

n the completely terrible 666 issue, hadn't he sold his soul, anyway?

I fixed that for you.

 

[regwec]

How witty of you.

 

[Joker]

That still makes no sense. Tim knows Bruce is not the devil and we know Damien is not his brother. Unless Tim is also Bruce's son, shock twist

I don't think it's meant to be read literally, but it does seem like something that will become fairly signifigant. There's something to all the Satan stuff. Jezebal, the Third Man's family, Damien as the future Batman. We just don't know what 'Satan' is suppoosed to represent in the context of this story. I doubt it actually refers to Lucifer himself...

There's also something weird happening where Tim says 'time out' and the scene abruptly ends. More fourth wall talking to the reader right here. It's almost like Tim realises he's *gasp* in a comic book or something. ha ha j/k

If you want me to defend Morrisons schlocky writing, you're gonna be dissapointed

I in fact dropped the book a while ago (#666, to be exact), and am only reading this arc so I know what's happening in the far superior Detective Comics tie-in.

My best real guess at the "my brother is the son of the devil," this is this though: Bruce adopted Tim, making him his son, technically. Damian is Bruce's biological son. Damian was raised by Ra's and Talia though, and I could see Tim reffering to Ra's as the devil. So he's saying that because Bruce is his legal father and Damians biological father, they are brothers, but still consideres Damians father in a "was raised by" sense to be Ra's. Thank you Grant Morrison, for making a single line of dialouge that's so convoluted it takes a paragraph to sum it up.

 

[Joker]

How witty of you.

I do try.

 

[regwec]

If you want me to defend Morrisons schlocky writing, you're gonna be dissapointed

I in fact dropped the book a while ago (#666, to be exact), and am only reading this arc so I know what's happening in the far superior Detective Comics tie-in.

Dini's run on Detective Comics is infinately superior in the eyes of all Batfans; but I do enjoy Morrison's Batman in a more abstract, fantastical sense. It's generally difficult to understand what is supposed to be reality in Batman, and therefore I can just appreciate comics like Batman 666 is a hotch-potch of neat ideas and fine art.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

I'm glad they're playing up that morbid humor a bit, but in the end it's still a pretty normal kill.

So what is an abnormal kill? Picking up some butter and cramming it down someone's throat until they choke?

 

[Jakk]

So what is an abnormal kill? Picking up some butter and cramming it down someone's throat until they choke?

I think that's just a fattening, tasty death. But I'm siding with Keyser; while he seems classy and such, dresses it, etc. He's just another serial killer... But he isn't. He brings a degree of paradox to it. Minus the gag weapons, he takes everyone out in rather uniform ways... but he does it with a mockery of "style," wisecracking about it and such. He's a multi-faceted character, and that's why we love him.

Also, I think the ""Sophisticated" Serial Killer" thing is something great about the look of Nolan's take; Neck-down, minus colors, he looks like an upright citizen, a sharp-dressed man, a Victorian gentlemen... But then you look at the colors of the clothing, what he holds in his hands, and then look at his face, and then realize that that is COMPLETELY wrong.

 

[Mr. Superhero]

I think that's just a fattening, tasty death. But I'm siding with Keyser; while he seems classy and such, dresses it, etc. He's just another serial killer... But he isn't. He brings a degree of paradox to it. Minus the gag weapons, he takes everyone out in rather uniform ways... but he does it with a mockery of "style," wisecracking about it and such. He's a multi-faceted character, and that's why we love him.

Also, I think the ""Sophisticated" Serial Killer" thing is something great about the look of Nolan's take; Neck-down, minus colors, he looks like an upright citizen, a sharp-dressed man, a Victorian gentlemen... But then you look at the colors of the clothing, what he holds in his hands, and then look at his face, and then realize that that is COMPLETELY wrong.

I'm merely commenting upon the paradox of stating that dressing up as a nurse in order to kill someone inside a hospital is "normal". The Joker has used knives, guns, rocket-launchers and virtually any and all types of fire-arms throughout his entire mythology. He blows things up, he's shoots people -- his means of killing are, more often than not, normal. But like you say, it's the Joker himself who is not normal -- it's the Joker's motivations that are inherently abnormal; making his kills, well, abnormal.

 

[The Guard]

I don't see where people are getting this "Oh The Joker's too refined to kill anyone violently" mentality from. In my opinion, The Joker is NOT refined. He's a vulgar, sadistic beast who believes himself to be refined, and the way he presents himself is a twisted mockery of class and taste.

Murder is violent. Doesn't matter if you do it with a knife and gun, or with some toy-based gimmick weapons.

Perhaps rather than say "The Joker is refined", I should say that most writers are more restrained with regard to his actions. Oh, they may have The Joker do something similar, but they don't feel the need to show it.

Murder is violent, yes, and The Joker does kill violently, but rarely, in the case of The Joker, do we SEE it's effects. We see the kick he gets out of it, and THAT's what's supposed to be frightening to the reader.

Now, I'm not going to say it doesn't work, but Grant Morrison is obviously using the gore for shock value (as well as metaphor, which is smart) more than most others do. A lot of writers have begun injecting more "show the gore" moments in Joker's actions. I blame Aaron Schoenke and PATIENT J.

 

[bulletbillx]

I kind of agree. He's a showman, he likes the drama and theatricality of his crimes. He does not - in every instance - start slicing people up. But that is something he's capable of. If he goes down that road he seems to pick his targets carefully so that they are something of an example. A lot like Nicholson's "homicidal artist" approach. That's exactly how The Joker is, he enjoys what he does, it amuses him. And in terms of crime he is something of an elitist. I think he'd look down on serial killers as uninspired and dull. To him it's all about the spectacle and giving people something to remember him by.

He actually does this in a Marvel/DC comic where he berates Carnage about the lack of theatrically of his crimes and calls him the David Hasselhoff of crime and then says he isn't even up to par with Hasselhoff, while Carnage is arguing that its the immediacy of the act and chaotic random killing that is important.

Of course Joker wins the argument and later scares Carnage by

Spoiler

Threatening to kill all of Gotham with a virus if Carnage killed Batman even though it would be suicide. Which lets Batman stop Carnage

 

[Maximus One]

He actually does this in a Marvel/DC comic where he berates Carnage about the lack of theatrically of his crimes and calls him the David Hasselhoff of crime and then says he isn't even up to par with Hasselhoff, while Carnage is arguing that its the immediacy of the act and chaotic random killing that is important.

Of course Joker wins the argument and later scares Carnage by

Spoiler

Threatening to kill all of Gotham with a virus if Carnage killed Batman even though it would be suicide. Which lets Batman stop Carnage

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