The Dark Knight The Man Who Laughs: The Joker Thread 2.0

[Ace of Knaves]

haha yea that films quality. that bit when hes going up in the lift to kill that geezer and he completely freaks out!! now that is scary!!

 

[Keyser Soze]

It seems that in Jonathan Nolan, this rendition of the Joker isn't quite human, but a type of mythical devil of some sort.

http://creativescreenwritingmagazine.blogspot.com/

At around 65% through the interview


"For me the most interesting version of the character is one who was never made at all, just an elemental force. In my imagination, there is no beginning or end to this character, he's kind of always existed. That first frame in Imax, where you see him from behind and he's holding a mask, to me it's as if the moment before that shot he just was conjured out of thin air. Y'know? He's a bit of a devil."

A few moments later, after discussing the Nicholson version (he loved it) and how he feels that giving The Joker a backstory is reductive of the character, he says:

"I think The Joker is and always will be. You see different versions of him in every culture, for thousands of years. Different names, Loki, the trickster, Coyote stories in American traditions." He then says he found it very appealing how in Batman #1 he had no back story, he was "just there."

Great description of The Joker there from Jonathan Nolan.

 

[ronny]

John Nolan says that The Joker in the comics has never been like the Dark Knight version. I beg to differ with that. If The Joker from the comics wasn't a force of nature then why would he ellicit such fear from all the other villains? Why would he have the balls to go after the daughter of a Police Commisioner and then shoot his wife?
I respect what Nolan has done but he shouldn't downplay the violence of the character in the comics.

 

[Sarg92]

I was thinking that how was the Joker so sure Dent would not kill him in the hospital? Joker loaded the gun put it in Dent's hands and then held it to his own head. The Joker seemed so sure that Dent wouldn't kill him and even joked when Dent said his outcome would depend on the result of the tossing of the coin.

I mean what if Dent did shoot the Joker, what would have happened then? The hospital wouldn't have blown up and the crazy terrorist clown would have been gone. Now I know that this is a film and is scripted and it wouldn't have happened but say this was acutally really happening, what if the Joker died in the hospital?

 

[FoJacob]

However, the question is (at least to me) - is it worth it? What would be the point? To have a 2-3 min. cameo in Arkham? Or to have another movie in which Batman and Joker play it all again? Both ways don't work, IMO. The first (the cameo) would be pointless, and the second (the whole movie) would be repetitive.

THANK YOU! You are talking sense. Please go over to the "Joker in the Third Film" thread in the sequels forum and spread a little of it around there too! I know everyone badly wants to see the Joker again - so do I - but I think what we all really want is to see this Joker again. And that's just not going to happen.

Sometimes wanting more doesn't work out too well. Witness all the crappy sequels to films that were made solely because fans clamored for more. I'm not saying any sequel Nolan makes would be crappy - I'm just trying to make the argument that sometimes, when something like a film or a performance is really special, it's best to leave well enough alone. Like you said, throwing in a new Joker just for a cameo would be pointless (use Heath's laughter or a line from this movie or a shadowy figure or something like that, just to remind us of his presence). And another movie of Batman vs. Joker would, I agree, be repetitive. Joker basically stole the show from Batman this time around. The focus of the third film should be back on Batman, with an interesting but less dynamic villain.

And frankly, no matter how good the actor is and how well he would adapt Heath's characterization - it just wouldn't be the same. The effect of that would be audiences sitting through the film nitpicking everything the new Joker did and comparing it to Heath's performance. You would no longer be seeing the Joker - you would be seeing an actor playing the Joker and sizing up how well he did it.

Besides, Nolan and his co-writers are so good at what they do, why do we think that they wouldn't be able to make any other Batman villain just as interesting and fun to watch as they and Heath made the Joker? I can't wait to see what they'd do to reinvent another villain.

 

[secretsquirrely]

I was thinking that how was the Joker so sure Dent would not kill him in the hospital? Joker loaded the gun put it in Dent's hands and then held it to his own head. The Joker seemed so sure that Dent wouldn't kill him and even joked when Dent said his outcome would depend on the result of the tossing of the coin.

I mean what if Dent did shoot the Joker, what would have happened then? The hospital wouldn't have blown up and the crazy terrorist clown would have been gone. Now I know that this is a film and is scripted and it wouldn't have happened but say this was acutally really happening, what if the Joker died in the hospital?

I think he either is that scary of a judge of humans or he simply didn't know..nor did he care. Basically, the Joker as perceived in TDK has absolutely no fear. The interrogation scene proved that, as does this scene. Harvey could have blown his head off and he would not have minded one bit..he would have died with a smile. In that sense I think what Jonathan had to say about the character shows. He's not a man, he's a devil with no remorse or fear of any kind.

 

[Sarg92]

I think he either is that scary of a judge of humans or he simply didn't know..nor did he care. Basically, the Joker as perceived in TDK has absolutely no fear. The interrogation scene proved that, as does this scene. Harvey could have blown his head off and he would not have minded one bit..he would have died with a smile. In that sense I think what Jonathan had to say about the character shows. He's not a man, he's a devil with no remorse or fear of any kind.

Yeah totally agree. It definately shows the Joker has balls and doesn't give a damn about anything, not even himself in some ways. He is just a twisted and tortured soul with a tragic past. Not sure if anyone remembers but when the virals started with the whole "I believe in Harvey Dent" thing going on and we got that first Joker pic by getting pixel co-ordinates via email from the Joker to reveal the pic. Well the email subject was "a tragic past".

 

["V"]

its all about BETTANY!!!!!!!!!

I was never able to picture Bettany pulling off Joker when everybody was rooting for him - but I could most definitely see him at The Riddler.

 

[ronny]

But why is The Joker having no fear such a big thing? It's not a new development. He's that way in the comics, I mean, in his first appearance doesn't he stab himself?
Again, the Nolan's got this all right but The Joker in the comics is just as fearless and dangerous as he is in the movie.

 

[Keyser Soze]

John Nolan says that The Joker in the comics has never been like the Dark Knight version. I beg to differ with that. If The Joker from the comics wasn't a force of nature then why would he ellicit such fear from all the other villains? Why would he have the balls to go after the daughter of a Police Commisioner and then shoot his wife?
I respect what Nolan has done but he shouldn't downplay the violence of the character in the comics.

I don't believe Jonathan Nolan said The Joker has never been like this in the comics. In fact, he specifically cited past incarnations of the character (Batman #1, The Killing Joke, even Nicholson's B89 Joker) as influences on how he wrote the character.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

[quote="V";15393867]I was never able to picture Bettany pulling off Joker when everybody was rooting for him - but I could most definitely see him at The Riddler.[/quote]

no no no no! lol i think bettany would be wasted as the riddler, its just that i feel he does his best work when he plays a really intense character like he does in gangster no.1.

 

[Quinzel]

no no no no! lol i think bettany would be wasted as the riddler, its just that i feel he does his best work when he plays a really intense character like he does in gangster no.1.

How would it be wasted? I mean sure, the riddler isn't all that much of a great character now, but neither was the scarecrow before murphy.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

na im not saying the riddler would be a waste, im saying i think paul bettany would be wasted playing the riddler. he can pull off a proppa phychotic, watch gangster no.1. you'll see, i'll show ya!!!

 

[Quinzel]

na im not saying the riddler would be a waste, im saying i think paul bettany would be wasted playing the riddler. he can pull off a proppa phychotic, watch gangster no.1. you'll see, i'll show ya!!!

lol. yeah. I just kinda get a little defensive, because i LOOVE Bettany. He's one of my favorite actors, and i just want to see him in a majority of a movie. lol.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

lol noooooooo worries!! have you seen gangster no.1 then? fooking bad-ass movie.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

lol noooooooo worries!! have you seen gangster no.1 then? fooking bad-ass movie.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Does anyone else just LOVE that sound Joker makes when he's pulling up Two-Face's bed in the hospital? It's like tararararara or something weird like that...I love it!!

 

[sandmjuggalos]

I must have missed that somehow...hmmm. Going to have to watch it again.

 

[Hobgoblin]

Yeah totally agree. It definately shows the Joker has balls and doesn't give a damn about anything, not even himself in some ways. He is just a twisted and tortured soul with a tragic past. Not sure if anyone remembers but when the virals started with the whole "I believe in Harvey Dent" thing going on and we got that first Joker pic by getting pixel co-ordinates via email from the Joker to reveal the pic. Well the email subject was "a tragic past".

Definitely. He did want Bats to hit him with the Bat-pod, after all. Did he just not care about being dead, or did he have a death wish? Thats what I want to know.

 

[ronny]

Maybe he just knew Batman so well he figured that he'd never hit him.
But still, he was muttering "I want you to do it, I want you to do it". That's just plain weird.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

yea i think he would be happy to die as long as batman himself was responsible, thats why he was laughing when batman threw him off the building at the end.

 

[Dr. Crane]

it's about his little game, and his plan to corrupt people...

if harvey would have shot the joker in the hospital.. or if batman ran him over with the bat-pod.. well that would have given the joker what he wanted.. even if it means his own life... he was trying to get them to kill... thats why he was so happy at the end when he was talking to batman while hanging upside down.. when he was talking about two face and the little "push" that he gave him... his ace in the hole...

coin toss or not.. harvey became the killer that the joker intended..

 

[ronny]

Here's something I was wondering, when he told Harvey that what happened wasn't personal do you think he meant it? He seemed strangely sincere during that scene even though earlier on he had been shooting at the guy with a frigging bazooka.

 

[Dr. Crane]

to me... i translate the "personal" thing as such..

i don't think the joker singled harvey out as a person.. it was more about what he represented to the city of gotham... what he stood for.. not necessarily anything between the joker and harvey personally.. like the judge, and the commissioner.. the joker targeted these people because of their jobs.. and the effect of their deaths, or their corruption would have on the city itself...

 

[Hobgoblin]

Here's something I was wondering, when he told Harvey that what happened wasn't personal do you think he meant it? He seemed strangely sincere during that scene even though earlier on he had been shooting at the guy with a frigging bazooka.

I dont think he gave a rat's pitoot about Harvey, but he absolutely hated that he stood for law and order. If Harvey had been an average nobody, Joker wouldnt have sought to kill him. It was only because he was the crusading D.A. Still, he laughed til it hurt when Rachel died, I'm sure.