The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 4

[BrooklynFrank]

Somebody needs to cosplay as Bob, Joker's henchman from that movie lol.

 

[regwec]

Everyone shut up and watch this-

[YT]5i7JW7QAhus[/YT]

For me, it is a brilliant illustration of how well Burton and Elfman together craft this rich texture of dark glamour and operatic climax. No dialogue is needed. At about 3:25, the tempo of the score changes into a kind of swift, tense march. It seems to perfectly evoke the madman's hurried progress towards an inevitable gory fate, and the shadowy hero's inexorable journey to meet him there. There is a feverish impatience about it. And Nicholson does so much with his eyes and movement; restrained violence flickers lustily beneath his lids. There is no need for the script the tell us that he is a feral monster clad in sharp tailoring.

There are so many of the best things about Batman all together, there.

Kudos to him... That's shockingly accurate.

That pun was just revolting.

 

[BrollySupersj]

I've seen that video before, love it. And it's the WHOLE track too, that musical bit when Batman glides to Napier? Not on the original score (a travesty btw). But now I can hear it whenever I want. Good stuff.

 

[Slade W]

I really did not like this movie and I did not like Jack Nicholson's Joker at all. I am not sure if those are popular opinions on here but I am just being honest. IMO Nolan and Bale were the best things to happen to the Batman franchise and along with the 90s animated series finally gave a serious interpretation of the character which resulted in Batman finally not being a joke.

 

[Travesty]

The funny thing about that is, without Burton, you wouldn't have both of those things.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

I hate the hyperbole of "Batman was a joke before..." This movie was certainly no joke in 1989. I'm sure many people had the same thing to say about it in comparison to the television show. "Finally, a serious Batman."

 

[Doc Ock]

Everyone shut up and watch this-

[YT]5i7JW7QAhus[/YT]

Oh My. This is brillant! It works so well!

 

[Keehar]

I really did not like this movie and I did not like Jack Nicholson's Joker at all. I am not sure if those are popular opinions on here but I am just being honest. IMO Nolan and Bale were the best things to happen to the Batman franchise and along with the 90s animated series finally gave a serious interpretation of the character which resulted in Batman finally not being a joke.

Yep same here. But the movie wasn't seen as a joke like the camp West show. This was viewed as dark Batman.

The funny thing about that is, without Burton, you wouldn't have both of those things.

You know what they say about clouds having silver linings

 

[Travesty]

Oh My. This is brillant! It works so well!

Yup, great stuff all around.

 

[Slade W]

The funny thing about that is, without Burton, you wouldn't have both of those things.

Very true, that is a fair point.

 

[AnneFan]

I really did not like this movie and I did not like Jack Nicholson's Joker at all. I am not sure if those are popular opinions on here but I am just being honest. IMO Nolan and Bale were the best things to happen to the Batman franchise and along with the 90s animated series finally gave a serious interpretation of the character which resulted in Batman finally not being a joke.

B66 is awesome, and I love it. But overall, I think Burton was the best thing to happen to Batman. It really put Batman on the map again in a big way. He started the franchise very well - and directly influenced a lot of BTAS.

The impact of Batman: http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com.au/2011/12/impact-of-batman.html
The influence on BTAS: http://gothamalleys.blogspot.com.au/2011/01/animated-series-movie-references.html

Shumacher dropped the ball with the next two films. Nolan brought the character back from the brink, cinematically.

 

[The Joker]

I really did not like this movie and I did not like Jack Nicholson's Joker at all. I am not sure if those are popular opinions on here but I am just being honest. IMO Nolan and Bale were the best things to happen to the Batman franchise and along with the 90s animated series finally gave a serious interpretation of the character which resulted in Batman finally not being a joke.

I don't dislike B'89, but I don't think that much of it as a movie or a Batman movie. I much prefer Batman Returns, which granted is weaker as a Batman movie, but I find it much more interesting and engaging in terms of story and characters.

I think the effects of B'89 and Burton's movies in general were better than the movie itself. Minus some of the things that were forced on BTAS by WB to help promote their movies, like the mutant Penguin design. I much prefer dapper gentleman looking Penguin ala Burgess Meredith and TNBA Penguin.

 

[regwec]

BR's Penguin was a strange creature. He was very much the social outcast/aspirant/climber that now forms the core of the character, but without much of a mask to wear in society.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Penguin must always retain that degree of ugliness/deformity. Obviously not to the extent of DeVito's take. It's what makes him who he is. He has major insecurities, and that's what Burton got right. Penguin really does have
"Small dick, big car" syndrome.

He comes from a prestigious background that someway or another gets stolen away from him. His hideousness contributes to his desire to reclaim or steal the things that will set him up to high standards in the eyes of others.

 

[regwec]

Yeah, and he should be licentious, too. The image of him cavorting amongst a rainbow of "lovebirds" is one that always rings true.

 

[The Joker]

Penguin must always retain that degree of ugliness/deformity. Obviously not to the extent of DeVito's take. It's what makes him who he is. He has major insecurities, and that's what Burton got right. Penguin really does have
"Small dick, big car" syndrome.

He comes from a prestigious background that someway or another gets stolen away from him. His hideousness contributes to his desire to reclaim or steal the things that will set him up to high standards in the eyes of others.

Penguin's only 'deformity' is his beak nose. Being short or pudgy is not a deformity. Burton went into Elephant Man type territory. I never got any insecurity issues from DeVito's Penguin. On the contrary he acted like he had a way with the women, and genuinely believed Catwoman would consent to marry him. He was almost humping the image consultant woman while chewing on a raw fish.

He also didn't steal anything to prove himself of high standard. The idea to run for Mayor wasn't even his, it was Max Schreck's because he wanted a Mayor in the office that would give the ok to his energy sucking power plant. Max had to convince him to do it because Penguin didn't want to get sidetracked because he had his own plans to tend to as he put it. Penguin in BR was a creature of revenge who's real agenda was to kill all the first born sons of Gotham.

Danny DeVito himself said he and Tim wanted to make Penguin as different as possible from the comics and TV show;

Upon their first meeting, it became apparent that the director wanted a characterisation that bore little or no resemblance to previous Penguins. ''The last thing I wanted to hear from Tim was that we were going to do the Penguin from the comic book or the TV series,'' recalls DeVito.

http://www.angelfire.com/film/batman/movies/returns/cast/penguin.html

Burton didn't want to do the Penguin, and said he never "got" the character of the comics. It was WB who insisted Penguin be used because he was the second fan favorite villain after the Joker in those days.

 

[Travesty]

Penguin's only 'deformity' is his beak nose.

He also had the flipper hands and black blood. Or whatever that was.

 

[The Joker]

He also had the flipper hands and black blood. Or whatever that was.

I mean Penguin in general, Trav, not the movie version. You could also add white skin to the movie's physical deformities.

 

[Travesty]

Oh, I thought that was directed towards Burton's version.

 

[The Joker]

Sorry probably my bad sentence structure. But we were comparing comic book Penguin to the movie version in terms of deformities. It's why I was saying I prefer the comic/Burgess/TNBA dapper gentleman Penguin.

I want to go on record and say I do love DeVito's Penguin, and BR (it's the movie that got me into Batman). But it's a far cry from the comic Penguin, which was what Burton wanted, so he succeeded in his vision.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Well, what was he originally, and what is he now?
Just a thieving and snobby villain, with an affinity for birds, due to his own bird like appearance. At least Burton brought something new and more substantial to the character in terms of making him interesting. He took advantage of the qualities that the comics ignored.
Penguin is a short, ugly guy, with a beak like nose. Without his power, as DeVito pointed out in Batman Returns, the prestige of a mayor, he couldn't normally do the things he wanted to
"It's not about power, it's about reaching out to people, groping people..."

He's exhibiting the corrupt and perverted qualities of those with power, smeared with the image of somebody respectful...like Prince Andrew

What's interesting about DeVito, was that you could clearly see the monster he was...even with DeVito's sad, brown eyes

A new Penguin, more like the comics, he would have to be like Burgess Meredith, with a nose like the Penguin from the Gotham. Nothing too overthetop, nothing monsterous, just something that you'd easily identify him as Penguin. He shouldn't appear too villainous, you know? It should be a mask. A mask hiding the evil underneath.

 

[The Joker]

What do you mean what was he originally and what is he now? Penguin in the comics steals to do the very thing you were talking about earlier, he wants to gain acceptance and status in society that he feels he's owed and is denied. He's your classic small dick/big car as you put it. He doesn't have an affinity for birds because he looks like one. He has an affinity for them because as a child they were his only friends in the bird shop his family used to run.

But he's also more than that. He's a ruthless, evil, cunning S.O.B. who's appearance makes you want to under estimate him, and that's part of what makes him so dangerous. Something Batman has warned several of the Robins about.

You'd never make that mistake with DeVito's Penguin because he looks so evil and hideous.

Penguin also has the most glorious ego, where he loves to play mind games with Batman, flaunting and taunting him with the crimes he's pulled off. As Penguin once said "Where's the thrill in committing the perfect crime if nobody knows it was you?". He's even done stints in Arkham (some fans do be surprised to learn that).

And he's got the tragic aspect to him. He was bullied and ostracized as a child. His father died. His mother was a burden, and a domineering b**ch depending on which version of his origins you read. The umbrella obsession is also explained. His father died of pneumonia after being caught in a rain shower, and his mother used to force him to carry an umbrella everywhere rain or shine.

Burton didn't want to touch on any of this because he said he didn't "get it" and wasn't interested. His Penguin was an evil version of the Elephant Man motivated by revenge. It worked for the movie and the vision he wanted. But you don't need that to make Penguin interesting. It's not who he is. I'm not sure what you mean without his power he couldn't do the things he could. Penguin never got to be Mayor in BR, he was just part of the mayoral election to replace the existing Mayor, and he never needed to be Mayor to do anything he needed to do in the movie.

 

[Slade W]

I don't dislike B'89, but I don't think that much of it as a movie or a Batman movie. I much prefer Batman Returns, which granted is weaker as a Batman movie, but I find it much more interesting and engaging in terms of story and characters.

I think the effects of B'89 and Burton's movies in general were better than the movie itself. Minus some of the things that were forced on BTAS by WB to help promote their movies, like the mutant Penguin design. I much prefer dapper gentleman looking Penguin ala Burgess Meredith and TNBA Penguin.

Out of interest, what is your favourite interpretation of The Joker and apart from your favourite what others versions do you think are good? What do you think of Snyder's Death of the family/Endgame Joker? Also what did you make of Joker or "Joker" (as we do not know if it is really him) in Zero Year? Apologies for all of the questions but I would be really interested to hear these things from a die hard Joker fan (which I assume you are going by your name, pic, signature etc).

I am a massive fan of the character myself and there are several versions that I really like. At the moment I am loving the current Joker in Endgame and I loved him in Death of the Family also. Probably the most scary version of Joker that I have every read.

Edit: Also apologies for going completely off topic in this thread.

 

[Rodrigo90]

What do you mean what was he originally and what is he now? Penguin in the comics steals to do the very thing you were talking about earlier, he wants to gain acceptance and status in society that he feels he's owed and is denied. He's your classic small dick/big car as you put it. He doesn't have an affinity for birds because he looks like one. He has an affinity for them because as a child they were his only friends in the bird shop his family used to run.

But he's also more than that. He's a ruthless, evil, cunning S.O.B. who's appearance makes you want to under estimate him, and that's part of what makes him so dangerous. Something Batman has warned several of the Robins about (I'll dig up some scans if you like?). You'd never make that mistake with DeVito's Penguin because he looks so evil and hideous.

Penguin also has the most glorious ego, where he loves to play mind games with Batman, flaunting and taunting him with the crimes he's pulled off. As Penguin once said "Where's the thrill in committing the perfect crime if nobody knows it was you?". He's even done stints in Arkham (some fans do be surprised to learn that).

And he's got the tragic aspect to him. He was bullied and ostracized as a child. His father died. His mother was a burden, and a domineering b**ch depending on which version of his origins you read. The umbrella obsession is also explained. His father died of pneumonia after being caught in a rain shower, and his mother used to force him to carry an umbrella everywhere rain or shine.

Burton didn't want to touch on any of this because he didn't "get it" and wasn't interested. His Penguin was an evil version of the Elephant Man motivated by revenge. You don't need that to make Penguin interesting. It's not who he is. I'm not sure what you mean without his power he couldn't do the things he could. Penguin never got to be Mayor in BR, he was just part of the mayoral election to replace the existing Mayor, and he never needed to be Mayor to do anything he needed to do in the movie.

I agree with what you said, you've conveyed my points I was attempting to make

The last part, I meant was that normally, under his usual circumstances, the way people looked up to him and how he got that close to that pretty blonde woman, pressing the badge on her breast. He wouldn't have gotten to that level without the power of respect that Gotham threw at him. It's like a celebrity, anyone high in power - they feel they can do whatever they want without any repercussions (some, of course). That never stopped Penguin doing what he wanted before, but at that point, he could go further, in a way that he normally couldn't before, and that was because of the prestige and admiration he had gained.

 

[The Joker]

Out of interest, what is your favourite interpretation of The Joker and apart from your favourite what others versions do you think are good? What do you think of Snyder's Death of the family/Endgame Joker? Also what did you make of Joker or "Joker" (as we do not know if it is really him) in Zero Year? Apologies for all of the questions but I would be really interested to hear these things from a die hard Joker fan (which I assume you are going by your name, pic, signature etc).

I am a massive fan of the character myself and there are several versions that I really like. At the moment I am loving the current Joker in Endgame and I loved him in Death of the Family also. Probably the most scary version of Joker that I have every read.

My favorites are Mark Hamill's (that's BTAS, animated movies, and Arkham games) and Heath Ledger's. But I've enjoyed every version of the Joker to some degree, except for that awful version in The Batman cartoon.

I'm very excited to see what Jared Leto's will be like. I'm just concerned if he can work without Batman in it, because even the Suicide Squad based Assault on Arkham had Batman in it.

Snyder's Joker is a bit of a mixed bag for me. I love his Batman obsession, and how he thinks Batman's "family" are a hindrance to him. Joker always preferred just tackling Batman solo, and never had much time for the Robins, Batgirls and Nightwings. Second stringers he calls them. But I thought the cutting off his face thing was way overboard and grotesque for the Joker. I'm glad they've seemingly fixed that and he's got his normal face back.

Edit: Also apologies for going completely off topic in this thread.

It's cool, it wasn't really you, it was me, Rodrigo, and to a lesser extent regwec with all our Penguin talk

I agree with what you said, you've conveyed my points I was attempting to make

The last part, I meant was that normally, under his usual circumstances, the way people looked up to him and how he got that close to that pretty blonde woman, pressing the badge on her breast. He wouldn't have gotten to that level without the power of respect that Gotham threw at him. It's like acelebrity, someone high in power - they feel they can do whatever they want without any repercussions. That never stopped Penguin doing what he wanted before, but at that point, he could go further, in a way that he normally couldn't before, and that was because of the prestige and admiration he had gained.

I don't know I think he could have groped a few boobs if he had wanted. I mean before he even ran for Mayor the city was all over him with hero worship with his fake saving the baby act, and phony sob story about finding his folks who dumped him. I mean you even saw Gothamites (Mrs. Bob Kane specifically lol) saying stuff like "He's like a frog who became a prince".