The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

[Brain Damage]

I always thought the BR glider looked really cool when he was actually gliding, but every time I watch that scene I chuckle at how silly it looks when it first pops out out of nowhere, mainly cause in one shot it's not there, and in the next it is, without a proper transition.

Nolan's films have that same awesome gliding effect (see the scene where Batman is flying over the fear toxin-ed Narrows in BB) but without the silly-magical-out-of-nowhere glider.

My main problem with the glider scene in BR is actually how Batman just stands there while the ice princess falls. I mean, come on, he's Batman! Catching falling people off rooftops is what he does.

 

[GothamAlleys]

I always thought the BR glider looked really cool when he was actually gliding, but every time I watch that scene I chuckle at how silly it looks when it first pops out out of nowhere, mainly cause in one shot it's not there, and in the next it is, without a proper transition.

Nolan's films have that same awesome gliding effect (see the scene where Batman is flying over the fear toxin-ed Narrows in BB) but without the silly-magical-out-of-nowhere glider.

My main problem with the glider scene in BR is actually how Batman just stands there while the ice princess falls. I mean, come on, he's Batman! Catching falling people off rooftops is what he does.

Again, its not a glider. Its a cape hardening. Same concept as memory cloth

And to bumwhowalks - Batman used a device to shoot his hook, but never a gun. That was developed by the 89 movie. And to be so cheap and take away the credit for designing it while no one did for decades saying "someone else would" is just really changing my opinion about you. He wouldve have some device if something, but this is one of many things developed by the 89 movie. Give the credit where credit is due and take off the hating blinders


And just to clarify:

Jerry Ordway: It was from the movie. When I did the movie comic, I was amazed at the various gadgets the prop department created for the film (...) At that time, I also understood that DC was not allowed to use any elements of that specific costume design in the comics, as it was property of the film company. I know they relaxed that rule over the last twenty years, though. (Newsrama.com 2010)

Scott Beatty (The DC Comics Encyclopedia, The Batman Handbook: The Ultimate Training Manual): The Grapnel Gun debuted in the 1989 film, but it didn't really catch on in the comics and become a regular feature in the Bat-Arsenal until it was popularized and used to great effect in Batman: The Animated Series, which debuted just a few years later (Newsrama.com 2010)

Paul Dini: When we did the animated series, we were inspired in part by the tech employed in the movie (Newsrama.com 2010)

And gliding above the crowd in BR doesnt make sense? What the? I see hate has no boundaries. He wanted to get to the batmobile asap. It was perfectly understandable and of course a phenomenal visual, ironically also imitated in Batman Begins with gliding above the hallucinating crowd with the same imagery of Batman looking like a giant bat with spread wings and horns on them

 

[Godzilla2014]

I always thought the BR glider looked really cool when he was actually gliding, but every time I watch that scene I chuckle at how silly it looks when it first pops out out of nowhere, mainly cause in one shot it's not there, and in the next it is, without a proper transition.

Nolan's films have that same awesome gliding effect (see the scene where Batman is flying over the fear toxin-ed Narrows in BB) but without the silly-magical-out-of-nowhere glider.

My main problem with the glider scene in BR is actually how Batman just stands there while the ice princess falls. I mean, come on, he's Batman! Catching falling people off rooftops is what he does.

Agreed. And when Batman lands, he looks like he's strapped a wooden board to his back.

Again, its not a glider. Its a cape hardening. Same concept as memory cloth

And to bumwhowalks - Batman used a device to shoot his hook, but never a gun. That was developed by the 89 movie. And to be so cheap and take away the credit for designing it while no one did for decades saying "someone else would" is just really changing my opinion about you. He wouldve have some device if something, but this is one of many things developed by the 89 movie. Give the credit where credit is due and take off the hating blinders


And just to clarify:
Paul Dini: When we did the animated series, we were inspired in part by the tech employed in the movie (Newsrama.com 2010)

Jerry Ordway: It was from the movie. When I did the movie comic, I was amazed at the various gadgets the prop department created for the film (...) At that time, I also understood that DC was not allowed to use any elements of that specific costume design in the comics, as it was property of the film company. I know they relaxed that rule over the last twenty years, though. (Newsrama.com 2010)

Scott Beatty (The DC Comics Encyclopedia, The Batman Handbook: The Ultimate Training Manual): The Grapnel Gun debuted in the 1989 film, but it didn't really catch on in the comics and become a regular feature in the Bat-Arsenal until it was popularized and used to great effect in Batman: The Animated Series, which debuted just a few years later (Newsrama.com 2010)

I think Thebumwhowalks is referring to the harpoon sniper rifle Batman uses on Two-Face's helicopter in The Dark Knight Returns.

 

[AnneFan]

My main problem with the glider scene in BR is actually how Batman just stands there while the ice princess falls. I mean, come on, he's Batman! Catching falling people off rooftops is what he does.

And executing plot points is what a director and his team does. I don't have a problem with the scene. Penguin, Catwoman (and Burton) wanted Batman framed, the image of Batman 'pushing her off', and they got it.

 

[Brain Damage]

And executing plot points is what a director and his team does. I don't have a problem with the scene. Penguin, Catwoman (and Burton) wanted Batman framed, the image of Batman 'pushing her off', and they got it.

I don't really mind it narrative wise, BR is still my favorite of the old Batman movies, it's just that that moment was a little bit un-Batman.

But then again, so was Batman not using his grappling hook when catching a falling Rachel, so there you go.

 

[AnneFan]

Actually, I'll edit what I said. Catwoman definitely wanted Batman framed, - but it seems she didn't totally agree with the way in which it was done. "You said you were going to scare the Ice Princess."

 

[Ponyboy]

Actually, I'll edit what I said. Catwoman definitely wanted Batman framed, - but it seems she didn't totally agree with the way in which it was done. "You said you were going to scare the Ice Princess."

I think she said that because, prior to that moment, she thought she had the Penguin doing what she wanted him to do.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

And to bumwhowalks - Batman used a device to shoot his hook, but never a gun. That was developed by the 89 movie. And to be so cheap and take away the credit for designing it while no one did for decades saying "someone else would" is just really changing my opinion about you. He wouldve have some device if something, but this is one of many things developed by the 89 movie. Give the credit where credit is due and take off the hating blinders

The device that he uses when he fires the rope in the movie is shaped like a gun?!
and I'm just stating the obvious, whoever made the first serious live action Batman movie was gonna use a grappling gun type device, they weren't gonna be doing the Adam West batarang rope climb.
Just as when Frank Miller did a more realistic and serious Batman in TDKR, he introduced an aspect of bullet-proof body armour, and a gun that fired a rope attachment, credit where it is due, they have all cited the fact that the Miller book was highly influential on the film, and in fact was what revitalised Batman in the comics world, increasing the demand for a serious film to be made. edit: It is possible they got those ideas from the book.


edit: Miller's influence is all over that movie, he was also the first to introduce the aspect of the police and officials in Gotham being corrupt, furthering the need for a Batman, as well as being the first to show BM with bullet proof body armour and a rope firing gun.

edit: Hell, i even said in that last post that if Miller had not included a rope firing gun in TDKR , whoever made the first serious BM movie would have anyway, it was inevitable. Same with BM wearing bullet proof body armour.
edit: Just as Nolan and co would have came up with the memory cloth anyway, if Batman's cape had not turned into a glider in BR.
I am the one who is being realistic and unbiased in thinking about the artists and their inspirations, and not hanging onto my favourite incarnation of Batman like a deluded fanboy and claiming it came up with everything first.

And just to clarify:

Jerry Ordway: It was from the movie. When I did the movie comic, I was amazed at the various gadgets the prop department created for the film (...) At that time, I also understood that DC was not allowed to use any elements of that specific costume design in the comics, as it was property of the film company. I know they relaxed that rule over the last twenty years, though. (Newsrama.com 2010)

Scott Beatty (The DC Comics Encyclopedia, The Batman Handbook: The Ultimate Training Manual): The Grapnel Gun debuted in the 1989 film, but it didn't really catch on in the comics and become a regular feature in the Bat-Arsenal until it was popularized and used to great effect in Batman: The Animated Series, which debuted just a few years later (Newsrama.com 2010)

Paul Dini: When we did the animated series, we were inspired in part by the tech employed in the movie (Newsrama.com 2010)

eh, Scott Beatty is talking out of his arse a bit there, after the 89 movie they used the grappling gun a lot in the books, Norm Breyfogyle and Alan Grant had him using it in Detective comics all the time, and yes, in the period of 89-92, before the animated show debuted.

 

[GothamAlleys]

As I already said - grant and Breyfogle used a cylinder to shoot the hook from, not gun. Jesus. Were talking about a pistol shaped device first and foremost and the gadget used in the last action piece in 89 and in BTAS

But the hell with that stupid Burton and his stupid Batman movie, he didnt do one tihng good and all that current movies and comics adopted wouldve been invented by anyone else anyway so who cares, right? What a joke that movie was, thank god no one liked it and nobody cares about it for 20 years and it didnt pull any fans, just turned them away. And the world then thought Batman was so uncool after that horrible movie!

 

[Mister Meddle]

Bum, you're getting it all wrong once again. Maybe you don't realize it but ideas are often passed down from person to person. Sure Bat was wearing a body armor in TDKR, but that was in TDKR.... a comic book! It was Burton who took the idea and made it work in a unique way for a live action film. The idea that Burton & co. came up with was also used by two other directors. Same with the grappling gun. I do admit that the idea most likely came from TDKR. Once again it was Burton & co. that took the idea and made it work in a unique way for his movies. Rather than attempting something different (with the grappling gun), Nolan decided to use the exact same thing, just like the Batsuit (in BB). You can't say "who cares about Burton, somebody else would've done it". It doesn't work like that. Not in this world. When somebody creates or modifies something so it's the ideal device or product nobody goes around saying "who cares about him, somebody else would've thought of it". Not only is it low but it's dumb.

Like I said before, if the Batarang/rope is too unrealistic then they could EASILY put Batman in situations where it isn't needed. They don't have to utilize everything on the utility belt.

I am the one who is being realistic and unbiased in thinking about the artists and their inspirations, and not hanging onto my favourite incarnation of Batman like a deluded fanboy and claiming it came up with everything first.

Wow.... just wow. You're being realistic an unbiased? Laughable!

I just love how you refuse to give Burton the credit for the grappling gun only because something similar (but not exactly the same thing) was only used once (in the comics) out of Batman's then-40+ year history.

But when it comes to the cape hardening so it could be used as a glider, you refuse to apply the same "unbiased" logic. Rather than giving credit to the person that first came with the idea, you're just throwing out your usual "somebody else would've thought of it" line. Which is stupid.

 

[El Payaso]

"Someone else would have done it" = speculation.
"This person did it (first)" = fact.

 

[CConn]

bum is obviously wrong due to his inability to properly use paragraphs.

But don't worry, he's leaving these boards because we've all been so terribly mean to him, anyway. Except he still has to post sometimes because there are "fans" (don't ask) who demand he do so.

 

[Brain Damage]

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

It doesn't matter if it was in a book or a movie first, an idea is an idea.
It's not me who is being full of crap here.

Let me speak a little more succinctly here, so you can't post pick what you want, and ignore my other points...

I said that they would have probably came up with the body armour and grappling hook gun for the Batman movie even if Miller hadn't done those in his book. But, y'know, they might've got an idea from them too, who knows...
But, I also said that no matter who made the first BM serious movie, they would have brought in a grappling gun, no frickin doubt, they were not gonna adam west that sh**. What is wrong with saying that? If I think it's probably true? big deal.

So...you guys have a problem with that?...but at the same time argue that Nolan wouldn't have came up with the cape glider without BR?! Without even admitting to the possibility, like I did in the case of Miller, that Nolan could have came up with the memory cloth even if BR had not done the cape glider?!

I am the one who is leaving possibilities open here about influences, damn right i am the one who is being unbiased!

I don't have anything against Burton or his movies, I'm just calling them as i see them.

 

[Mister Meddle]

It doesn't matter if it was in a book or a movie first, an idea is an idea.
It's not me who is being full of crap here.

Kind of like the cape/glider was in Batman Returns first. Yet you refuse to apply that same "unbiased logic". It's not you who is being full of crap? Lulzz~!

Let me speak a little more succintctly here, so you can't post pick what you want, and ignore my other points...

I said that they would have probably came up with the body armour and grappling hook gun for the Batman movie even if Miller hadn't done those in his book.

Assumptions aren't facts. It's irrelevant because you're only guessing.

But, y'know, they might've got an idea from them too, who knows...
But, I also said that no matter who made the first BM serious movie, they would have brought in a grappling gun, no frickin doubt, they were not gonna adam west that sh**. What is wrong with saying that? If I think it's probably true? big deal.

How do you know? Like I said, they could easily put Batman in situations where a rope isn't needed. It's not that hard, smart one.

So...you guys have a problem with that?...but at the same time argue that Nolan wouldn't have came up with the cape glider without BR?! Without even admitting to the possibility, like I did in the case of Miller, that Nolan would have came up with the memory cloth even if BR had not done the cape glider?!

You're not admitting the possibility that Nolan got the idea from (the cape/glider) BR. Everything is one sided, as usual.

I am the one who is leaving possibilities open here about influences, damn right i am the one who is being unbiased!

But you weren't "unbiased" with the cape/glider. Never once did you say there is a possibility that Nolan got the idea from BR. So much for being "unbiased".

And I just love how you REFUSE to give Burton any credit for the way he introduced the rubber Batsuits or the grappling gun. You're telling me that Burton & co. had NO creative input what so ever and every aspect of the suits & gun were 100% copied from TDKR?

I don't have anything against Burton or his movies, I'm just calling them as i see them.

Trying to save face, eh? Then why is it that you only pop up when you have anything but flattering things to say about the movies?

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

You're not admitting the possibility that Nolan got the idea from (the cape/glider) BR. Everything is one sided, as usual.

But you weren't "unbiased" with the cape/glider. Never once did you say there is a possibility that Nolan got the idea from BR. So much for being "unbiased".

Ok, so he may have seen that movie and thought 'ok, let's do the cape glider idea', there you go.
Apparently he was thnking of scrapping the cape from BM altogether, and Goyer told him it was essential for the character's image, I have not read a source for that, folk have said it on the boards a few times over the years.
So, if that was the case, and he then wanted to find a practical reason for Batman to wear the cape, then he would logically go to the idea of making the cape into a glider....now, if that was the case, he initially did not want to do a cape...then I think the method of thnking was probably more along the lines of thinking of the cape having a practical use being essential for Nolan, so he would then think of it turning into a glider given it's shape resembling the wings of an animal.

I bet he saw BR before he thought of getting rid of the cape, so the idea of turning it into a glider would not have been directly inspired by that, otherwise he would not have thought about ditching the cape altogether.

Anyway, if that cape ditching story is not true, then I would put more weight on the theory that he got the idea from BR.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Trying to save face, eh? Then why is it that you only pop up when you have anything but flattering things to say about the movies?

Don't disrespect me with lies mate, ok? I have said plenty of positive things about the Burton films. Don't try to make a name for yourself by making a big song and dance by tackling one of my posts, look at the length of that reply, just to say that I could've said that one statement, you are obviously showboating, posting videos and such(which i did not click on), hanging onto the mere fact that I didn't make one statement/disclaimer, that I am more than willing to say, it's not a big deal to me to say that.
Don't you have better things to do than ride on my coattails? haha probably not.

 

[Mister Meddle]

Ok, so he may have seen that movie and thought 'ok, let's do the cape glider idea', there you go.

Sounds like you really didn't want to admit that. But that's a good start.

Apparently he was thnking of scrapping the cape from BM altogether, and Goyer told him it was essential for the character's image, I have not read a source for that, folk have said it on the boards a few times over the years.

Never heard of this.

So, if that was the case, and he then wanted to find a practical reason for Batman to wear the cape, then he would logically go to the idea of making the cape into a glider....now, if that was the case, he initially did not want to do a cape...then I think the method of thnking was probably more along the lines of thinking of the cape having a practical use being essential for Nolan, so he would then think of it turning into a glider given it's shape resembling the wings of an animal.

We don't know if it's true. This is the first time I'm hearing this. But that doesn't explain anything.... all what we know is the idea was first used in Batman Returns. And there is a strong possibility that Nolan saw it, liked it and modified it so it could work in his film. Just like he used a similar Batsuit and grappling gun. It isn't out of the ordinary.

I bet he saw BR before he thought of getting rid of the cape, so the idea of turning it into a glider would not have been directly inspired by that, otherwise he would not have thought about ditching the cape altogether.

Even more assumptions that are based on absolutely nothing.

Anyway, if that cape ditching story is not true, then I would put more weight on the theory that he got the idea from BR.

I have a hard time believing that anyone would scrap the cape. Could anyone back up the bum's claim?

Don't you have better things to do than ride on my coattails? haha probably not.

Don't you have better things to do than constantly nitpicking, posting irrelevant assumptions and replying to my responses? Haha probably not.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

Don't you have better things to do than constantly nitpicking, posting irrelevant assumptions and replying to my responses? Haha probably not.

how about quoting the rest of my post where I accuse you of being a liar?
which you are, if you have read any of my posts on the Burtons, i have also said the things i liked about the films.

don't dare ever try to make out I am trolling mate, ok? Don't dare lie about me and then come in with patronising post slike 'that's a start..' I have more honour in my frickin pinkie's pinkie than you do in the entire collection of cells you will be replicating your entire life.
It's very telling that you did not quote the whole post, or respond to it, hoping folk won't notice you are a liar, or at the very least, completely wrong about everything you were accusing me of.
and don't have the honour enough to apologise, you'd rather sweep it under the carpet.

edit:

C'mon, man, you have a lot to say about me, how about responding to this part of the post you deliberately ommitted, hoping no-one would notice it...c'mon, let's here that apology...that's if, you want to be a person with honour.

Don't disrespect me with lies mate, ok? I have said plenty of positive things about the Burton films. Don't try to make a name for yourself by making a big song and dance by tackling one of my posts, look at the length of that reply, just to say that I could've said that one statement, you are obviously showboating, posting videos and such(which i did not click on), hanging onto the mere fact that I didn't make one statement/disclaimer, that I am more than willing to say, it's not a big deal to me to say that.

 

[Mister Meddle]

how about quoting the rest of my post where I accuse you of being a liar?
which you are, if you have read any of my posts on the Burtons, i have also said the things i liked about the films.

don't dare ever try to make out I am trolling mate, ok? Don't dare lie about me and then come in with patronising post slike 'that's a start..' I have more honour in my frickin pinkie's pinkie than you do in the entire collection of cells you will be replicating your entire life.
It's very telling that you did not quote the whole post, or respond to it, hoping folk won't notice you are a liar, or at the very least, completely wrong about everything you were accusing me of.
and don't have the honour enough to apologise, you'd rather sweep it under the carpet.

edit:

C'mon, man, you have a lot to say about me, how about responding to this part of the post you deliberately ommitted, hoping no-one would notice it...c'mon, let's here that apology...that's if, you want to be a person with honour.

I'm not here to stir up some e-drama. I never accused you of being a troll nor did I ever call you anything else. Now you're just putting words in my mouth. Go ahead and believe whatever you want about me. I'm just stating things the way I see them. If you don't agree with some of it then so be it. Are you done calling me out already?

As for the comment that you quoted.... that was just me countering your rhetorical question about me not having anything better to do. It's Sunday night and I don't watch football.

 

[Thebumwhowalks]

I'm not here to stir up some e-drama. I never accused you of being a troll nor did I ever call you anything else. Now you're just putting words in my mouth. Go ahead and believe whatever you want about me. I'm just stating things the way I see them. If you don't agree with some of it then so be it. Are you done calling me out already?

As for the comment that you quoted.... that was just me countering your rhetorical question about me not having anything better to do. It's Sunday night and I don't watch football.

You did accuse me of being a troll, you said I only came in to say negative things about the Burton films, when this is plainly not true.
I also said I didn't give a crap about saying Nolan and Goyer might have got the idea about glider from BR, and you didn't quote that part at all. I didn't even realise I didn't say it, I don't care who comes up with what idea, I just find it interesting talking about artists and their influences, and thinking about how ideas work, I don't give a crap who came up with them.

 

[CConn]

You did accuse me of being a troll, you said I only came in to say negative things about the Burton films, when this is plainly not true.

No, he never accused you of being a troll, and I must agree with his original statement; I too have never seen you say anything positive about the Burton movies.

Please stop making things up so you can feel persecuted. No one's buying it but you.

 

[Mister Meddle]

You did accuse me of being a troll, you said I only came in to say negative things about the Burton films, when this is plainly not true.

Um.. I just see you as a person that likes to express his negative opinions. Not a troll. Putting words in my mouth isn't a good idea.

I also said I didn't give a crap about saying Nolan and Goyer might have got the idea about glider, and you didn't quote that part at all. I didn't even realise I didn't say it, I don't care who comes up with what idea, I just find it interesting talking about artists and their influences, and thinking about how ideas work, I don't give a crap who came up with them.

But you were incapable of giving Burton any credit. He took a simple idea, had his people work hard to reinvent the accessory so it would be suitable for a live action movie. Just like the Batsuit. And the glider. If you're unbiased then how come you're incapable of giving credit where it's due? Rather than discrediting the man for what his team achieved. After all Christopher Nolan did use the same grappling gun without making any changes to the concept of it (other than the design). Same thing with the Batman Begins Batsuit. It's low for somebody to say "well screw him, somebody else would've done the same thing somewhere down the road".

No, he never accused you of being a troll, and I must agree with his original statement; I too have never seen you say anything positive about the Burton movies.

Please stop making things up so you can feel persecuted. No one's buying it but you.

 

[GothamAlleys]

Guys, cmon. Who cares who invented it? Anyone before Nolan was a looser and it made no sense. Nolan made t work. It was so silly. And Nolan woudlve invented it anyway. It was just a matter of time. Those old movies were just lucky to be slightly ahead of what Nolan was thinking. Those loosers are lucky to get 10% of what Nolan was aiming for. What a joke for a movie those other guys made. In Nolan we trust!

You guys are such losers. You just still keep talking about those old ridiculous movies cause youre lost in nostalgia.

Im sorry, Im really trying to blend in with other modern batman fans. I just wanna be proud to say Im one of Batman fans. Obviously you guys arent. What a loser would post in old movies thread. Those movies are irrelevant. Schumacher and Nolan are Gods.

 

[Brain Damage]

This picture still summarizes how I feel about where this thread's been going these last few days