The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

[BatLobster]

I watched Returns with Burton's commentary the other day. A few thoughts upon revisiting it:

-Gotham really does have a claustrophobic feel to it, it seemed more glaring to me this time for some reason.
-I enjoy Bruce's character more in Returns than in 89, particularly the scene where he meets with Shrek. Getting to see his business side and him doing "Batman work" as Bruce Wayne was a nice touch.
-The Batcave in Returns is my probably my favorite on-screen Batcave. The blue tint to it really gives it that classic feel.
-Pfeiffer's performance really is that damn good.
-Devito is still creepy as f***. A truly appalling creature.
-The scene where Bruce and Selina both try to come up with excuses for Alfred to relay to one another is hilarious and charming.
-Gordon being a complete non-character in this movie is rather unfortunate.
-On the other hand, Walken's Shrek was a great original character who really enhances the movie for me. Every movie needs more Walken.
-The dialogue is very snappy, but Waters got a little too comfortable with the puns.
-Elfman's score is extremely haunting and tragic, but a lot his action cues are even more cartoony this time around. That mix perfectly reflects the film, to be fair.
-The plot isn't so tight, but it doesn't bother me much because I watch this movie for the audio/visual experience, the expressionism/symbolism and great performances. All of that stuff tells the story more than the plot itself does.
- I still can't believe Pfeiffer put a bird in her mouth and held it in there for that long. I would like...never, ever do that, ever. lol
- "Shut up, you're going to jail", "Wrong on both counts." Great classic Batman lines.
- The raccoon makeup magically disappearing when Bruce unmasks still takes me out of the movie. Complete and utter nitpick, but there it is. Beautiful human moment amidst the chaos though. It's cool that we got to see Keaton's face exposed while wearing the suit at least once.
-The ending is still bittersweet for me, as it's essentially a cliffhanger that never gets any payoff. It's all "what if", but man I can't help but what wonder what Burton's third film may have looked like.

 

[Brain Damage]

I watched Returns with Burton's commentary the other day. A few thoughts upon revisiting it:

-Gotham really does have a claustrophobic feel to it, it seemed more glaring to me this time for some reason.
-I enjoy Bruce's character more in Returns than in 89, particularly the scene where he meets with Shrek. Getting to see his business side and him doing "Batman work" as Bruce Wayne was a nice touch.
-The Batcave in Returns is my probably my favorite on-screen Batcave. The blue tint to it really gives it that classic feel.
-Pfeiffer's performance really is that damn good.
-Devito is still creepy as f***. A truly appalling creature.
-The scene where Bruce and Selina both try to come up with excuses for Alfred to relay to one another is hilarious and charming.
-Gordon being a complete non-character in this movie is rather unfortunate.
-On the other hand, Walken's Shrek was a great original character who really enhances the movie for me. Every movie needs more Walken.
-The dialogue is very snappy, but Waters got a little too comfortable with the puns.
-Elfman's score is extremely haunting and tragic, but a lot his action cues are even more cartoony this time around. That mix perfectly reflects the film, to be fair.
-The plot isn't so tight, but it doesn't bother me much because I watch this movie for the audio/visual experience, the expressionism/symbolism and great performances. All of that stuff tells the story more than the plot itself does.
- I still can't believe Pfeiffer put a bird in her mouth and held it in there for that long. I would like...never, ever do that, ever. lol
- "Shut up, you're going to jail", "Wrong on both counts." Great classic Batman lines.
- The raccoon makeup magically disappearing when Bruce unmasks still takes me out of the movie. Complete and utter nitpick, but there it is. Beautiful human moment amidst the chaos though. It's cool that we got to see Keaton's face exposed while wearing the suit at least once.
-The ending is still bittersweet for me, as it's essentially a cliffhanger that never gets any payoff. It's all "what if", but man I can't help but what wonder what Burton's third film may have looked like.

Other than I enjoyed Bruce's character more in '89 (for the most part), I wholeheartedly agree with all of this

 

[regwec]

I don't mean to be a jerk when I say this, but thanks for that comic spoiler in your sig. Now I won't be surprised whenever I decide to read that story in TPB. Just saying.

He will probably be alive again by the time you read the TPB.

 

[OutRiddled]

 

[mikey1974]

honestly,I didn't care for the Batcave in BR. just looked like a couple sets to me. the ones in the 1st film (and even Forever) felt like a huge cave to me.

B & R, however,felt like an underground arcade.

 

[OutRiddled]

honestly,I didn't care for the Batcave in BR. just looked like a couple sets to me. the ones in the 1st film (and even Forever) felt like a huge cave to me.

B & R, however,felt like an underground arcade.

I'd take any of them over this:

 

[regwec]

Heh. That does encapsulate the reservations that some of us have to Nolan's approach to Batman.

 

[The Joker]

They put the Bat-Bunker in the comics after TDK came out

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

They adopt lots of things from the movies post-release...

 

[The Joker]

honestly,I didn't care for the Batcave in BR. just looked like a couple sets to me. the ones in the 1st film (and even Forever) felt like a huge cave to me.

B & R, however,felt like an underground arcade.

Actually Gotham itself felt like a set, too. Over 75% of the Gotham City scenes were in Gotham Plaza. I mean I don't agree with opinions like this:

Batman Returns looks like it was shot in my garage.

But this Gotham was tiny compared to others.

They adopt lots of things from the movies post-release...

Really? LOTS of things? List some of them please if there's so many like you say. I'm making a blog about the influence of the TDK trilogy on the comics. I'd love to hear these many things.

 

[regwec]

They put the Bat-Bunker in the comics after TDK came out

Bat 'bunkers' have been around for decades. They pop in No Man's Land, and did before. The Cave is very much the norm for the comics, thankfully.

 

[The Joker]

Bat 'bunkers' have been around for decades. They pop in No Man's Land, and did before.

No they definitely haven't. The Bat Bunker first appeared in Batman #687. Before that it never existed. It originated from TDK.

Show me a pic of a Bat Bunker from No Man's Land please. Because they were not Bunkers. They were not called bunkers. They were called Batcaves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batcave#Other_Batcaves

They were not white like Nolan's either. The Bunker adopted into the comics after TDK was.

 

[milost]

I think he mean's those hideouts Bruce/Batman had throught the city. Those small, underground Batcaves.

Yeah, I don't think they were called "Bat bunkers", but they certainly looked like small fortifications for protection. He had cots and primitive computes in there and everything.

 

[The Joker]

I think he mean's those hideouts Bruce/Batman had throught the city. Those small, underground Batcaves.

Yeah, I don't think they were called "Bat bunkers", but they certainly looked like small fortifications for protection. He had cots and primitive computes in there and everything.

Yeah, they were mini Batcaves:

They were always referred to as Batcaves. Nothing else. Then after TDK, they get what they CALL a Bat Bunker, and it's got a white decor and decked out like Nolan's:

I challenge anyone to show something like that pre 2008.

 

[regwec]

Exactly. Nolan got the idea from the comics, which then unhappily got reintroduced for a time. Lame ideas do get briefly adopted after movies are released, like Zsasz being bald.

 

[The Joker]

Exactly. Nolan got the idea from the comics

Yeah, he got the idea to give Batman alternative Diggs to his Batcave from the comics. But there was no BAT-BUNKERS in the comics. Only other alternative Batcaves. They look completely different visually to what Nolan did. I can show you scans where they refer to them as Batcaves, and this white washed post TDK bunker as a Bat-Bunker, too, if you want. It even looks like Nolan's bunker as you can see in the pic above.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Bat-Bunker

which then unhappily got reintroduced for a time.

It's still around. They have it under the Wayne Foundation.

Lame ideas do get briefly adopted after movies are released, like Zsasz being bald.

What's so bad about Zsasz being bald? It's not like his hair was the most striking thing about him. He's even bald in the Arkham video games.

 

[milost]

I'm somewhere in the middle on this between you two guys.

I mean, those "Batcaves" were sort of bunkers during the No Man's Land event since Wayne Manor and the Batcave were leveled from the earthquake. That is very similar to the temporary pad Bruce has in the Dark Knight since Wayne Manor was leveled in Batman Begins. Whether the story tellers and filmmakers were inspired by previous comics or not, it is similar.


Yeah, they're not decked out with white ceilings and they're not specifically called "Bat Bunkers", but they are temporary hideaways located in the city that Batman utilizes. One even has a furnace with coal just like the bunker in Dark Knight.


And then yeah, that later comic is directly influenced from Dark Knight. I dunno. All this Batman stuff, for me, is an evolving thing. Whether it's comics, TV shows, Burton, Nolan, or video games. Everyone takes from the wealth and creates something new, pushing it forward.







As for bald Zsasz, I always preferred the look where he had the crazy blonde hair and sharp sunglasses, but that's just me. Doesn't really make a difference. It's not like either look is that iconic or a costume, he's certainly no Batman or Joker in terms of appearance. Just an every day psycho.

 

[The Joker]

Right. So they were not decked out with white ceilings and walls. They were not called Bat Bunkers. So where is the similarity other than they were both used as alternative bases for the main Batcave under Wayne Manor? I mean if we want to get pedantic lets say they all had Bat computers in them, and the Batmobile, and somewhere to keep the Batman costume etc. But that's the whole point. It was supposed to serve the same functions as the Batcave. Whereas in the comics' case they WERE Batcaves.

The Bat-Bunker is a Nolan creation adapted into the comics. Just like the Narrows:

 

[milost]

Still, you know what we're talking about. Right?

Those places weren't "THE Batcave" (the cavern lair we know of that is under Wayne Manor). They were temporary hideaways within the city that Batman/Bruce Wayne operated from while the Batcave/Wayne Manor was being rebuilt after the earthquake. No different than the bunker.


Yeah, it wasn't referred to as "Bat bunker" in the comics (though, it's never referred to as "Bat Bunker" in the film either, just in the script and toy merchandise) in those days, but they still served the same function. The bunker in TDK could easily be a "mini Batcave" too. If Batcave, by definition is simply a place where Batman stores his gear and operates from.


I know where Reg was coming from. I also know where you're coming from with the Batman #687 inspiration, clearly inspired from Dark Knight (especially with Alfred going down there with the serving tray). Neither one of you are wrong.






It just depends on label. Like you said, they all house the Batsuit, computers, vehicles, weapons, etc. The only difference is name and location. Those "mini Batcaves" aren't even located anywhere near THE Batcave, so the only difference is THE name. I mean, what's the difference between those hideaways in No Man's Land to the ones in Dark Knight and later, modern comics? A ceiling, a color, and a name?


So maybe the argument we should all be having is that Nolan coined the term "Bat-bunker" which found it's way to the comics, not the idea of a temporary operating hideaway in the city that houses Batman's gear until his main establishment is finished/rebuilt.


Just to be clear, I'm not really arguing here. I just knew what Reg was talking about. Names or labels be damned.

 

[The Joker]

Yeah, I know what you mean, you explained yourself well, I just don't agree. A Batcave is a Batcave, and a Bat-Bunker is a Bat-Bunker. It's like how a Motorcycle is different to a Car. They both have similar functions as their transportation vehicles, but they are visually and structurally different.

I don't doubt for a second Nolan got the idea for alternative diggs for Batman's base of operations from the comics. Most likely from No Man's Land, too.

But he didn't make another Batcave like the comics did. He could have. After all they were just old cave tunnels and things like that in the city. He made a Bat-Bunker instead. It didn't look like any Batcave from No Man's Land or any other comic, it wasn't structured like any Batcave. It just had the contents Bruce would have in his Batcave, which is the whole point of them.

Now if anyone here can refute me by showing me a Batcave or any kind of Batman base pre 2008 that had the clean white decor layout like Nolan's, and was called a Bat-Bunker, then I'll concede it was not a Nolan inspired creation at all. Until then the fact remains before 2008, Batman comics had never seen or heard of a white washed neat and tidy Bat-Bunker base for Batman.

 

[milost]

So, what makes those No Man's Land "Batcaves", Batcaves other than name? Isn't a Batcave Batman's hideaway located beneath Wayne Manor? Not all of them have stalagmites, just look at the pic you posted. Some of them are actual foundations, just like the bunkers. Isn't one of them even located at a Wayne Industries center? Or does white decor make it a bunker? Does a character have to refer to it as "Bat Bunker" for it to be legit? Bruce and Alfred never call it that in Dark Knight, the only thing that is spoken is "Batpod".

You mention structures, and I agree with you. But those headquarters from No Man's Land were all different and had varying looks. Some were Wayne Enterprises, some were within the city, hell, one was even at Arkham (unless I'm mistaken and am getting mixed up with the video game). They all served the same purpose that TDK and current comics had. Temporary headquarters.


Then if you really want to get specific, yeah, the comic bunker has a sort of whitish decor and a sterile look (but then again, it doesn't have those over head lights the film has and is mostly greyish), but other that and name what else is there?

So the connection to the Nolan creation is name and I guess look. If we want to get technical here, where were the multiple levels of Nolan's bat bunker? The latter we see Alfred coming down from? The subway station (with tracks that lead to the Batcave)? In the film, it wasn't located under Wayne Enterprises or even Wayne's penthouse, it was on the outskirts of Gotham by the docks on some other Wayne industries property. All it was a fortified area with hidden panels.

This looks a lot different,

than this,

Basically, my point is, Batman has had other establishments throughout the city other than THE Batcave before 2008 and Nolan. Doesn't matter what they were called. My point is that, everyone is inspired from one another and it's an involving thing. I don't care if it's a game, a comic or a movie. They all take and give to each other creating the Batman we know currently (which is constantly changing). Black Batman armor didn't always exist. Either did a suit vault. Neither did the term "bat bunker".

I'm in complete agreement that the comic borrowed/was inspired by 2008, but it's not like that idea of "Batman operating out of a place other than the Batcave" is new or original. Those previous pads of Batman WERE bunkers. All temporary fixes for him since they weren't THE Batcave.




Can I find you a pre 2008 Batcave that has white lights and is called a Bat-bunker? No. The Batcave has taken on many different looks, from dank and cluttered to modern and sterile. Sometimes there's a T-Rex in there, other times, it's nothing but sleek, flat, clean architecture. Sometimes there's an entrance via clock, sometimes book case.


All I can say is, those No Man's Land are essentially "bat bunkers", in function, even though they're not white and not called "bat bunkers" directly. In fact, I'm not even sure if they're called "Batcaves" either.


And yes, TDK/Nolan did inspire the bunker in #687, the name anyway but there have been previous hideaways just like it previously. Even if it wasn't white or whatever.

 

[The Joker]

So, what makes those No Man's Land "Batcaves", Batcaves other than name? Isn't a Batcave Batman's hideaway located beneath Wayne Manor? Not all of them have stalagmites, just look at the pic you posted. Some of them are actual foundations, just like the bunkers. Isn't one of them even located at a Wayne Industries center? Or does white decor make it a bunker? Does a character have to refer to it as "Bat Bunker" for it to be legit? Bruce and Alfred never call it that in Dark Knight, the only thing that is spoken is "Batpod".

Burton's movies never called the Batwing or the Batskiboat by their names. Lets not get hung up on semantics of the absence of the official name being verbally mentioned in the movie. You can also apply that to characters in other movies, too:

Iron Man never called Obidiah Stane 'The Iron Monger'

The Incredible Hulk never called Blonsky 'The Abomination'

Spider-Man 3 never named Eddie Brock 'Venom'

Iron Man 2 never calls Mickey Rourke's character 'Whiplash'

Rhodey is never called War Machine

The Avengers never even calls 'Hawkeye', calling him just 'Agent Barton'

I don't know what makes those No Man's Land bases Batcaves. That's something the writers of the stories chose to call them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batcave#Other_Batcaves

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about the NML bases all having different looks? Unless one of them looked like the Bat-Bunker, my point still stands.

Of course the overall design of the movie and comic book one looks different. They were not going to do a carbon copy of the movie's one. How uncreative would that be. Even The Narrows doesn't look the exact same. But it still is from Batman Begins. The general decor and design is the same. Same with the Bat-Bunker.

I'm in complete agreement that the comic borrowed/was inspired by 2008

Excellent.

but it's not like that idea of "Batman operating out of a place other than the Batcave" is new or original. Those previous pads of Batman WERE bunkers. All temporary fixes for him since they weren't THE Batcave.

I never said the idea of alternative Batcaves was original.

Just the Bat-Bunker.

Can I find you a pre 2008 Batcave that has white lights and is called a Bat-bunker? No.

Ergo Nolan created it.

The Batcave has taken on many different looks, from dank and cluttered to modern and sterile. Sometimes there's a T-Rex in there, other times, it's nothing but sleek, flat, clean architecture. Sometimes there's an entrance via clock, sometimes book case.

Semantics. They're all still the batcave just with different pieces of memorabilia and ways into them. I mean if you want to play that card you can also say Wayne Manor has had many different looks, too. So has Gotham City.

It's still Wayne Manor and Gotham City.

LOL look at how both radically changed between Batman '89 and Returns for example.

All I can say is, those No Man's Land are essentially "bat bunkers", in function, even though they're not white and not called "bat bunkers" directly. In fact, I'm not even sure if they're called "Batcaves" either.

Oh yes they were called Batcaves. I can show you some scans if you like?

And yes, TDK/Nolan did inspire the bunker in #687, the name anyway but there have been previous hideaways just like it previously. Even if it wasn't white or whatever.

There have been previous Batcave hideaways with the same function. An alternative base for Batman.

 

[regwec]

Milost puts this much better than me. The argument seems to rest on terminology which isn't used anyway. The 'spare caves' in NML represent the same idea and function as the 'bunker' from TDK. The use of the bland, empty bunker in comics subsequent to TDK clearly shows TDK's influence, but it is a transitory influence over a previously used concept.

So, Joker, you are correct stricto sensu, but I think we have a point de facto.

 

[The Joker]

Fair enough, reg. I respect you and milost enough to agree with that and leave it at that.

 

[Merlo]

Something new to my mind came up that I don't like about BR, it's that after Penguin turned on Catwoman...well she didn't bother to go after him at all. One thing that is completely stupid is when Max asks why Bruce is dressed up as Batman. Let's face it, in the movie besides Bruce, there was no one else that came across as Batman, and second of all, it's not like Batman and Bruce Wayne died in the movie. So to me, it should have been obvious to Max that Bruce is Batman.