The Official Devil May Cry Thread

[DarthSkywalker]

See? That's what I'm talking about. You guys take this so personally. You even believe they're dictating what you should and shouldn't like. They're not forcing you to want what they've been told to do. No one will try to change that. They will try to give you a new experience and you'll decide whether you'll get it or not.

The point I made about MGR is that they marketed it from the beginning as a hack'n slash game. Even if it was called MGSolid, we knew from the get-go what it wanted to be.

You are completely missing the point. You don't insult someone and then ask them to shake your hand. Why are people going to care about this "new experience" when the creator went out of his way to insult?

Look at Pat's post. He is still mad people dare not buy the game, as if it was something they had to do.

OK, I disagreed with some of what Tameem said, maybe I still do
This is a reboot, you know, a different take, you want a better game story with more feel to the older series, that's fine, please don't say you were wounded with this reboot, it's not a literal knife to the thigh

Again, completely missing the point. It isn't about being hurt, it is about them making many not even want to look their way. It isn't about them simply rebooting it. It is there need to make sure everyone knows that this reboot was necessary because the other games weren't good enough in their minds and those that disagreed were wrong and simply didn't matter.

We aren't even talking about the game at this point, though I think it should be pointed out, if it was as good as some are trying to make it out to be, it would have sold better. It isn't like they were trying to sell a new IP. Does anyone really think Tomb Raider is going to bomb in the same manner? If you are going to reboot you better make a great game. They didn't.

This was the height of arrogance. Big predictions, brash talk and fanbase trashing. Then when they suddenly realized they were in trouble, backtracking and double talk. No, no, this isn't a reboot. It is an "alternate universe".

I am not hurt. I am just happy that this has blown up in their face. Don't take on the heel role if you can't handle it.

 

[Jick]

You are completely missing the point. You don't insult someone and then ask them to shake your hand. Why are people going to care about this "new experience" when the creator went out of his way to insult?

You're proving to me in every post that I'm right about that. Missing what point? My point? That people are way too insulted over a video-game or what a game director thinks? You guys take this too personally, as if the developer is deliberately insulting you. What is it that he said that provoked you so much? Please, post a link.

 

[SlamAdams]

We aren't even talking about the game at this point, though I think it should be pointed out, if it was as good as some are trying to make it out to be, it would have sold better.

That's a ridiculous statement. In the realm of entertainment, "being good" can and has occurred without selling well

 

[Havok83]

ok so Im playing DMC4 and stuck on Mission 8's boss battle with I think its Angelo Credo. Anyone have tips for him bc I cant seem to defeat him

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You're proving to me in every post that I'm right about that. Missing what point? My point? That people are way too insulted over a video-game or what a game director thinks? You guys take this too personally, as if the developer is deliberately insulting you. What is it that he said that provoked you so much? Please, post a link.

I take offense to someone telling me what I want to like. It isn't about what he thinks, it is about his need to express himself in a way that turns many people off.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-08-17-dmc-sceptics-secretly-want-to-like-it

There are always many levels of criticism.

There is the absurd-
"Dante's hair is not the right color!!! Worst game ever and I hope the developers get cancer!"

There is the middle ground-
"So they have redesigned Dante. Fine. I like what I see/I'll wait and see.

The curiously on point-
"Fine, they have done a redesign. But why exactly does he look like the co-founder of the new studio working on the game?"

And there is the opposite end of the spectrum-
"Old Dante sucked anyways. New one is going to be so better!!! NT 4 life."

What is important is how you react to that. There is no secret that someone changed The New Dante after the original backlash. Was it Tameem's decision? Capcom's? I am not sure, but they must have felt some of the criticism was correct and they made a clear shift.

One of the great things about videogames is what the fans can add. You see it all the time with fan wishlist and them becoming apart of the actual process through testing and such. One of the great things about Borderlands 2 is how many things garnered from fan feedback made the game and made it a much better overall experience then the first game. Capcom themselves have done just that with their fighting games. It is how fighters like Street Fighter and MvC have become cornerstones of the competitive gaming scene.

But does that mean they should be beholden to the fans? Of course not. For every good idea there are many, many more bad ones. But to act as if you are right and what everyone else things is stupid can turn people off, especially once you have already shown your hand by responding to the criticism with the new, new Dante.

http://www.ps3center.net//news/5327/dmc-dev-i-dont-care-if-it-sells-a-thousand-units-or-two-million/

http://bitmob.com/articles/should-developers-listen-to-their-fans

Tameem clearly sees himself as some sort of artist. I understand the concept of sticking to your vision, but Tameem makes everything personal. This is his game, about what he finds cool and is for his enjoyment. If no one else wants to play it, he doesn't care. His "I don't care" comment can be seen as him simply protecting his integrity, but it also shows a lack of willingness to listen to any criticism. There is a simmering arrogance in most of what he says.

Why even make the sales comment other then to stick up your chin to the fans and show that they don't really matter?

http://www.vg247.com/2010/09/22/dmc-what-was-cool-in-the-past-isnt-cool-anymore/

Instead of simply talking up his game, he has to devalue others. Even his comparison of Sam Raimi films to Hostel shows this. There is a clear, "my stuff is deep, their stuff is shallow" vibe going on. He doesn't just say he wants to update the character, he feels compelled to to sweep aside the classic series by basically calling it out of date. Even when speaking on Bayonetta, he praises it and then proceeds to take a dig at it.

A major problem I have always had with this game was Tameem continually not understanding the original series and the original Dante and thus misrepresenting what many fans liked about the original series. It has never been about making Dante contemporary cool. He never was. The original Dante looked and acted like an 80s creation. If you are going to make such comments, I find it best to at least understand the subject.

He told us DmC would have the essence of Devil May Cry, but many, including myself don't see it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That's a ridiculous statement. In the realm of entertainment, "being good" can and has occurred without selling well

I am trying hard to find many examples of a well established franchise producing something of great quality and it just dying. I have seen it with new IPs, but I am having trouble remembering it with franchises that have a history of doing well.

 

[Jick]

I take offense to someone telling me what I want to like. It isn't about what he thinks, it is about his need to express himself in a way that turns many people off.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-08-17-dmc-sceptics-secretly-want-to-like-it

http://www.ps3center.net//news/5327/dmc-dev-i-dont-care-if-it-sells-a-thousand-units-or-two-million/

http://bitmob.com/articles/should-developers-listen-to-their-fans

Tameem clearly sees himself as some sort of artist. I understand the concept of sticking to your vision, but Tameem makes everything personal. This is his game, about what he finds cool and is for his enjoyment. If no one else wants to play it, he doesn't care. His "I don't care" comment can be seen as him simply protecting his integrity, but it also shows a lack of willingness to listen to any criticism. There is a simmering arrogance in most of what he says.

Why even make the sales comment other then to stick up your chin to the fans and show that they don't really matter?

http://www.vg247.com/2010/09/22/dmc-what-was-cool-in-the-past-isnt-cool-anymore/

Instead of simply talking up his game, he has to devalue others. Even his comparison of Sam Raimi films to Hostel shows this. There is a clear, "my stuff is deep, their stuff is shallow" vibe going on. He doesn't just say he wants to update the character, he feels compelled to to sweep aside the classic series by basically calling it out of date. Even when speaking on Bayonetta, he praises it and then proceeds to take a dig at it.

A major problem I have always had with this game was Tameem continually not understanding the original series and the original Dante and thus misrepresenting what many fans liked about the original series. It has never been about making Dante contemporary cool. He never was. The original Dante looked and acted like an 80s creation. If you are going to make such comments, I find it best to at least understand the subject.

You say you're not hurt, but at the same time you talk about being insulted. If you're insulted, then you're hurt. That's what insulting does. He's expressing himself because he's being asked. Much more since this whole project was entirely controversial. I feel like you want something like a hug from him. Or that Tameen holds your hand telling you that everything will be fine. You, along with so many others, apparently, care way too much about what Tameen thinks ans says. You find offense on what he says because you interpret what he says as insulting.
'I don't care if it sells a thousand units or two million' can also be taken as, ''we're not thinking about the money we'll get, but about the quality of the product''. ''Usually the worst creative crimes are made when you're trying to make a game for someone else - some perceived demographic that, in all likelihood, doesn't actually exist." can also be taken as ''we want to make the best game possible, because if we're not satisfied with it, then how can we give it to the players?'' See how much the opinions can diverge when you look at it differently? All the stuff he said about the gamers secretly wanting to like it, even though they are skeptical and everything else...You guys aren't just offended. You are easily offended. It's not like he's insulting our mothers or saying that old gamers don't know anything. When you look for reasons to dislike him, then you'll find it. I can do the same thing with you. You said that his behavior was the ''height of arrogance'', but I can also say that you're doing the same thing when you state that he doesn't understand what makes DMC what it is, but you, apparently, get it just right.
If you didn't have internet or didn't follow the news, you wouldn't even know about all of this stuff he says. I...couldn't...care...less. I don't care what he thinks and what he says and what he wants and whatever else. I don't lose in this situation. I always win. I win because he is the one working his butt off to deliever us a game while I do nothing. I don't want to know what's on his mind, I want him to sit his ass on the chair and work to give me a good game. I win in this situation because the only thing I'll need to do is to save some money and buy it while they're losing millions to do it and probably working on some weekends to meet the due date. I win in this situation because I'm having tons of fun with the game while others are losing their hair complaining about it or what could have been. Do you care about what everyone else around you have to say about the things you like or used to like? I'd advise you and everyone else to stop giving a damn about these people's opinions sometimes.

He told us DmC would have the essence of Devil May Cry, but many, including myself don't see it.

Too bad for you. Fortunately, I see it, along with many others who bought it and even those who got it and also changed their opinions after playing it.

Spoiler

There are always many levels of criticism.

There is the absurd-
"Dante's hair is not the right color!!! Worst game ever and I hope the developers get cancer!"

There is the middle ground-
"So they have redesigned Dante. Fine. I like what I see/I'll wait and see.

The curiously on point-
"Fine, they have done a redesign. But why exactly does he look like the co-founder of the new studio working on the game?"

And there is the opposite end of the spectrum-
"Old Dante sucked anyways. New one is going to be so better!!! NT 4 life."

What is important is how you react to that. There is no secret that someone changed The New Dante after the original backlash. Was it Tameem's decision? Capcom's? I am not sure, but they must have felt some of the criticism was correct and they made a clear shift.

One of the great things about videogames is what the fans can add. You see it all the time with fan wishlist and them becoming apart of the actual process through testing and such. One of the great things about Borderlands 2 is how many things garnered from fan feedback made the game and made it a much better overall experience then the first game. Capcom themselves have done just that with their fighting games. It is how fighters like Street Fighter and MvC have become cornerstones of the competitive gaming scene.

But does that mean they should be beholden to the fans? Of course not. For every good idea there are many, many more bad ones. But to act as if you are right and what everyone else things is stupid can turn people off, especially once you have already shown your hand by responding to the criticism with the new, new Dante.

This is all filler talk. Don't drag the conversation away from the main point. We can talk about this some other time.

 

[SlamAdams]

I am trying hard to find many examples of a well established franchise producing something of great quality and it just dying. I have seen it with new IPs, but I am having trouble remembering it with franchises that have a history of doing well.

I don't need examples. Quality is subjective, not objective. Number of units sold does no change someone's opinion of how much they like it. And vice versa, a game is not high quality because it sells many units.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't need examples. Quality is subjective, not objective. Number of units sold does no change someone's opinion of how much they like it. And vice versa, a game is not high quality because it sells many units.

In which case there is no possible correlation. You can't say this game sold why it did for any reason that have to do with quality. So you can't say something being good and not selling well has happened.

 

[SlamAdams]

In which case there is no possible correlation. You can't say this game sold why it did for any reason that have to do with quality. So you can't say something being good and not selling well has happened.

I agree, that's why I put being good in scare quotes, because its not measurable yet people still enjoy games that don't sell well.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You say you're not hurt, but at the same time you talk about being insulted. If you're insulted, then you're hurt. That's what insulting does. He's expressing himself because he's being asked. Much more since this whole project was entirely controversial. I feel like you want something like a hug from him. Or that Tameen holds your hand telling you that everything will be fine. You, along with so many others, apparently, care way too much about what Tameen thinks ans says. You find offense on what he says because you interpret what he says as insulting.
'I don't care if it sells a thousand units or two million' can also be taken as, ''we're not thinking about the money we'll get, but about the quality of the product''. ''Usually the worst creative crimes are made when you're trying to make a game for someone else - some perceived demographic that, in all likelihood, doesn't actually exist." can also be taken as ''we want to make the best game possible, because if we're not satisfied with it, then how can we give it to the players?'' See how much the opinions can diverge when you look at it differently? All the stuff he said about the gamers secretly wanting to like it, even though they are skeptical and everything else...You guys aren't just offended. You are easily offended. It's not like he's insulting our mothers or saying that old gamers don't know anything. When you look for reasons to dislike him, then you'll find it. I can do the same thing with you. You said that his behavior was the ''height of arrogance'', but I can also say that you're doing the same thing when you state that he doesn't understand what makes DMC what it is, but you, apparently, get it just right.
If you didn't have internet or didn't follow the news, you wouldn't even know about all of this stuff he says. I...couldn't...care...less. I don't care what he thinks and what he says and what he wants and whatever else. I don't lose in this situation. I always win. I win because he is the one working his butt off to deliever us a game while I do nothing. I don't want to know what's on his mind, I want him to sit his ass on the chair and work to give me a good game. I win in this situation because the only thing I'll need to do is to save some money and buy it while they're losing millions to do it and probably working on some weekends to meet the due date. I win in this situation because I'm having tons of fun with the game while others are losing their hair complaining about it or what could have been. Do you care about what everyone else around you have to say about the things you like or used to like? I'd advise you and everyone else to stop giving a damn about these people's opinions sometimes.

Except he shows a base lack of logic when discussing the original series.

This entire forum is built on irrational attachment to fiction. Look at it all. Batman, X-Men, Superman, Spider-Man etc. If simple depth of feeling for a property is wrong, then there is no point to this place. You can have emotional attachment to a product and speak rationally about it.

You are posting in big broad ideas on a fan message board because you are being overly sensitive about others overly sensitive. If this was all about just how you felt about the game, why are you posting here? If it doesn't matter to you want others feel about the game or developer, why post about it?

Is it perhaps because you are sensitive to criticism the game you like is getting?

You say that you don't care and if I didn't have the internet and read what is said, I wouldn't know what he said, which proves what exactly? If there was no earth, there would be nothing to discuss either. If Hitler had won, perhaps videogames wouldn't exist. Is that relevant? If there were no gaming consoles there would be no games either and thus no discussion to be had. See how ridiculous that logic is? The companies themselves use the internet as a tool for marketing the game. Ninja Theory did just that.

If none of what is said matters, why does Tameem speak? You scream sensitivity without comprehending ideas like tact and promotion, and most importantly accurate criticism. It isn't about being "hugely" insulted, it is about being turned off and annoyed just enough to not buy the product, which is hugely relevant when it comes to a money making venture. I am not trying to sell anything. Ninja Theory are. The idea that because he didn't go to the depths of one's soul and kick their puppy and insult their mother, there is nothing to be offended by is complete nonsense.

The comment on sales is very important when you consider their own words. Like how they spoke on wanting to create a game for a wider audience. Stands it complete contrast with that very statement. As does their reactions to the sales of both Heavenly Sword and Enslaved. Well we wanted to make a Heavenly Sword 2, but no one bought it. We wanted to make Enslaved DLC, but no one bought it. They throw their toys out of the crib whenever things go against "their vision".

If this was all about making a good game, then they could have made a good game and called it anything other then Devil May Cry. But they clearly wanted the cache and moneymaking potential of the franchise and thus they don't get to simply ignore the baggage that comes with it.

If the next Batman franchise is about a middle school kid being bitten by a radioactive bat, you think there is going to be issues?

Too bad for you. Fortunately, I see it, along with many others who bought it and even those who got it and also changed their opinions after playing it.

I own the game. I have played it. I have played every Devil May Cry. There as as many, and considering sales, probably many more that don't agree. So, really, not exactly the most sound argument here.

This is all filler talk. Don't drag the conversation away from the main point. We can talk about this some other time.

No it isn't. It goes directly to why Tameem turns people off.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I agree, that's why I put being good in scare quotes, because its not measurable yet people still enjoy games that don't sell well.

Well every game has its supporters. No game is universally disliked. If all it takes is for one person to enjoy it, well then the debate is done.

 

[SlamAdams]

Well every game has its supporters. No game is universally disliked. If all it takes is for one person to enjoy it, well then the debate is done.

I'm not debating. You said "I think it should be pointed out, if it was as good as some are trying to make it out to be, it would have sold better," and that's simply not true.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I'm not debating. You said "I think it should be pointed out, if it was as good as some are trying to make it out to be, it would have sold better," and that's simply not true.

Well using your own argument, you can't say it is untrue. Because as you said quality is subjective.

 

[SlamAdams]

Well using your own argument, you can't say it is untrue. Because as you said quality is subjective.

The fact that quality is subjective is THE REASON it is untrue, because being well-reviewed by some doesn't mean good sales, and vice versa. Its not the conclusion.

To put it another way. If I say somethings good, and it doesn't do well, I'm not wrong.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The fact that quality is subjective is THE REASON it is untrue, because being well-reviewed by some doesn't mean good sales, and vice versa. Its not the conclusion.

Reviews aren't the question. Quality as interpreted by the buying public is. If the game was better, it would have sold more. If more people bought and enjoyed the game it would have sold more.

To put it another way. If I say somethings good, and it doesn't do well, I'm not wrong.

But that doesn't make you right either.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

ok so Im playing DMC4 and stuck on Mission 8's boss battle with I think its Angelo Credo. Anyone have tips for him bc I cant seem to defeat him

Use Evil Legacy and hit his back

 

[SlamAdams]

Reviews aren't the question. Quality as interpreted by the buying public is. If the game was better, it would have sold more. If more people bought and enjoyed the game it would have sold more.

No its not. It is interpreted by individual buyers. Your concensus includes people who didn't buy or rent it and thus have no reference to speak of its quality (there are those who pirated or didn't like a demo but they are outliers) .You are trying to connect quality with financial success. A great game can bomb. A ****** game can make millions. So when you try to dismiss everyone who thinks the game is great by saying "If its as great as they say, it would sell better" doesn't work.

But that doesn't make you right either.

Yes it does because there is no wrong answer. If you want to say the game is bad because you tried it and didnt like it you aren't wrong either. If you try to say the game is bad because it didn't sell, then you're wrong. Success doesn't equate quality.

 

[Wolvieboy17]

Truth, SlamAdams.

 

[Jick]

Except he shows a base lack of logic when discussing the original series.

This entire forum is built on irrational attachment to fiction. Look at it all. Batman, X-Men, Superman, Spider-Man etc. If simple depth of feeling for a property is wrong, then there is no point to this place. You can have emotional attachment to a product and speak rationally about it.

You are posting in big broad ideas on a fan message board because you are being overly sensitive about others overly sensitive. If this was all about just how you felt about the game, why are you posting here? If it doesn't matter to you want others feel about the game or developer, why post about it?

Is it perhaps because you are sensitive to criticism the game you like is getting?

You say that you don't care and if I didn't have the internet and read what is said, I wouldn't know what he said, which proves what exactly? If there was no earth, there would be nothing to discuss either. If Hitler had won, perhaps videogames wouldn't exist. Is that relevant? If there were no gaming consoles there would be no games either and thus no discussion to be had. See how ridiculous that logic is? The companies themselves use the internet as a tool for marketing the game. Ninja Theory did just that.

If none of what is said matters, why does Tameem speak? You scream sensitivity without comprehending ideas like tact and promotion, and most importantly accurate criticism. It isn't about being "hugely" insulted, it is about being turned off and annoyed just enough to not buy the product, which is hugely relevant when it comes to a money making venture. I am not trying to sell anything. Ninja Theory are. The idea that because he didn't go to the depths of one's soul and kick their puppy and insult their mother, there is nothing to be offended by is complete nonsense.

The comment on sales is very important when you consider their own words. Like how they spoke on wanting to create a game for a wider audience. Stands it complete contrast with that very statement. As does their reactions to the sales of both Heavenly Sword and Enslaved. Well we wanted to make a Heavenly Sword 2, but no one bought it. We wanted to make Enslaved DLC, but no one bought it. They throw their toys out of the crib whenever things go against "their vision".

If this was all about making a good game, then they could have made a good game and called it anything other then Devil May Cry. But they clearly wanted the cache and moneymaking potential of the franchise and thus they don't get to simply ignore the baggage that comes with it.

If the next Batman franchise is about a middle school kid being bitten by a radioactive bat, you think there is going to be issues?

''Do as I say not as I do''. Once again, you talk about Tameen's height of arrogance, but displays the same attitude. Don't be hypocrite.

You tell me that this entire forum is built on irrational attachment to fiction. Now tell me what I don't already know. You talk if depth of feeling for a property is wrong. Is to you? I didn't mention it to you. Is that what you take from my posts? This:
This entire forum is built on irrational attachment to fiction. Look at it all. Batman, X-Men, Superman, Spider-Man etc. If simple depth of feeling for a property is wrong, then there is no point to this place. You can have emotional attachment to a product and speak rationally about it.
and this:
You are posting in big broad ideas on a fan message board because you are being overly sensitive about others overly sensitive. If this was all about just how you felt about the game, why are you posting here? If it doesn't matter to you want others feel about the game or developer, why post about it?
is how you're dragging the conversation. I may have heard the same thing in every thread when people discuss about what they like or didn't like regarding anything. We're going to post here whatever comes to mind or whatever we want to discuss. Am I saying ''shut up and don't talk?'' No. ''Why post about it''? Well, why not? We're free to talk about it whenever we want. Is this only about how I feel about the game? No. It's interesting to hear what others have to say. But do I take personally when someone says something I disagree with? No. You're the one doing it. I should be asking you this things. You bothered to quote me. This should be all obvious answers to you, but you seem to be taking my posts in the wrong way. Then you extrapolate with:
You say that you don't care and if I didn't have the internet and read what is said, I wouldn't know what he said, which proves what exactly? If there was no earth, there would be nothing to discuss either. If Hitler had won, perhaps videogames wouldn't exist. Is that relevant? If there were no gaming consoles there would be no games either and thus no discussion to be had. See how ridiculous that logic is? The companies themselves use the internet as a tool for marketing the game. Ninja Theory did just that.
For what purpose you're trying to exagerate like this, well, maybe to make your argument sound? This isn't the beginning of the Earth, this isn't Hitler winning. This isn't the lack of gaming consoles. This is people caring way too much about someone else's opinion and how they're feeling so offended. This is video-game. Is it relevant? Well, if you didn't see Tameen's thoughts on the whole thing, you wouldn't be arguing this right now. Is this relevant to you?

Why does Tameen speak? Why do you speak? You're asked, aren't you? I've already answered this in the previous posts. In a project as controversial as this one, people are going to ask unusual things. We're going to hear unusual things, too. The other developers might have a similar line of thought, but how could we know? They weren't asked. I don't see people making accurate criticism, I see people overeacting. If you're telling me about being turned off and annoyed just enough to not buy the product, then you're confirming to me what was said by other posters about people rating this game without even playing it.

Me sensitive? I'm not the one taking what the others talk or think so deeply, who is talking about being offended or insulted. Or sending death letters, or telling everyone how NT is offering the middle finger. Or looking for every word that came from Tameen and interpreting those as insulting. You keep talking about Tammen's this and that, how he should've done things. Interpreting so much of what he said as offensive and arrogant. Let go. Wouldn't you feel better if you cared less about his visions and opinions? Not just him, but most people out there. Wouldn't you have more fun and give more chances?

Had they done this game and called it anything else, it probably would be rated higher among the currently stubborn people who don't want to give this a chance, BUT...how could they? How could they do this game without it being called Devil May Cry rip-off for the rest of the life?

Oh, if a kid is bitten by a radioactive bat...I'll give it a chance. What if something great comes out of it? Of course there is going to be issues. Too many people can't seem to open their mind, give the benefit of doubt and learn to let go. I'm past that. That are more important things to care for.

I own the game. I have played it. I have played every Devil May Cry. There as as many, and considering sales, probably many more that don't agree. So, really, not exactly the most sound argument here.

Neither is yours. You're basing it on assumptions. ''Probably'' isn't certainly. I can assume too. I'm not. Look all over the internet the people posting about how they changed their minds. I'm not pointing a finger at you if that's what you understood. I've aready read that you played the game.

No it isn't. It goes directly to why Tameem turns people off.

It is. You quote me to express your opinion on being insulted, then starts talking about the involvement with the fans. Now you proceed with Hitler and life with no Earth. Don't drag this. You could have been objective enough without that.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

No its not. It is interpreted by individual buyers. Your concensus includes people who didn't buy or rent it and thus have no reference to speak of its quality (there are those who pirated or didn't like a demo but they are outliers) .You are trying to connect quality with financial success. A great game can bomb. A ****** game can make millions. So when you try to dismiss everyone who thinks the game is great by saying "If its as great as they say, it would sell better" doesn't work.

You are discerning the quality of a game based on sales right there. If your argument is the quality of a game can only be based on an individuals interpretation, there is no such thing as a great game bombing or a bad game doing well.

Yes it does because there is no wrong answer. If you want to say the game is bad because you tried it and didnt like it you aren't wrong either. If you try to say the game is bad because it didn't sell, then you're wrong. Success doesn't equate quality.

I am not saying the game is bad because it didn't sale. I am saying that if the game was of a higher quality, it would have sold more. The sales aren't what determine anything. It is the quality that determines the sales in this situation.

 

[Wolvieboy17]

That's not true, regarding quality at all. Plenty of great games sell poorly for a multitude or reasons.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Can you please use the quote function? It is hard to read what you are writing as it block and mixed with my words.

''Do as I say not as I do''. Once again, you talk about Tameen's height of arrogance, but displays the same attitude. Don't be hypocrite.

He doesn't even know when the original game was released. He misrepresents Dante as a purely Japanese character, when he is clearly modeled on 80's American concepts.

You tell me that this entire forum is built on irrational attachment to fiction. Now tell me what I don't already know. You talk if depth of feeling for a property is wrong. Is to you? I didn't mention it to you. Is that what you take from my posts? This:
This entire forum is built on irrational attachment to fiction. Look at it all. Batman, X-Men, Superman, Spider-Man etc. If simple depth of feeling for a property is wrong, then there is no point to this place. You can have emotional attachment to a product and speak rationally about it.
and this:
You are posting in big broad ideas on a fan message board because you are being overly sensitive about others overly sensitive. If this was all about just how you felt about the game, why are you posting here? If it doesn't matter to you want others feel about the game or developer, why post about it?
is how you're dragging the conversation. I may have heard the same thing in every thread when people discuss about what they like or didn't like regarding anything. We're going to post here whatever comes to mind or whatever we want to discuss. Am I saying ''shut up and don't talk?'' No. ''Why post about it''? Well, why not? We're free to talk about it whenever we want. Is this only about how I feel about the game? No. It's interesting to hear what others have to say. But do I take personally when someone says something I disagree with? No. You're the one doing it. I should be asking you this things. You bothered to quote me. This should be all obvious answers to you, but you seem to be taking my posts in the wrong way.Then you extrapolate with:
You say that you don't care and if I didn't have the internet and read what is said, I wouldn't know what he said, which proves what exactly? If there was no earth, there would be nothing to discuss either. If Hitler had won, perhaps videogames wouldn't exist. Is that relevant? If there were no gaming consoles there would be no games either and thus no discussion to be had. See how ridiculous that logic is? The companies themselves use the internet as a tool for marketing the game. Ninja Theory did just that.
For what purpose you're trying to exagerate like this, well, maybe to make your argument sound? This isn't the beginning of the Earth, this isn't Hitler winning. This isn't the lack of gaming consoles. This is people caring way too much about someone else's opinion and how they're feeling so offended. This is video-game. Is it relevant? Well, if you didn't see Tameen's thoughts on the whole thing, you wouldn't be arguing this right now. Is this relevant to you?

You are deflecting and deciding what matters and what doesn't. You are saying people are being "oversensitive" and yet you bring up how the internet not existing would make it irrelevant.

My point in bringing up the "What if" scenarios is to show how ludicrous that is. You can't detach the comments or make them go away by saying they only matter because we are able to see them. And you most certainly don't get to tell people how they feel about them. For you it is acting oversensitive, for others it is not.

Is it not being oversensitive complaining about how others feel about the game, pre-release or not? If it is all about your enjoyment of the game, why does it matter?

Why does Tameen speak? Why do you speak? You're asked, aren't you? I've already answered this in the previous posts. In a project as controversial as this one, people are going to ask unusual things. We're going to hear unusual things, too. The other developers might have a similar line of thought, but how could we know? They weren't asked. I don't see people making accurate criticism, I see people overeacting. If you're telling me about being turned off and annoyed just enough to not buy the product, then you're confirming to me what was said by other posters about people rating this game without even playing it.

You think what Tameem was asked is new and controversial? It happens all the time. My point is that his manner, his way of speaking got him in trouble with a lot of fans of the series.

I am all for the discussion. I am not questioning the actual act of responding, but the words and manner in which they were delivered.

I am not talking about the quality of the game with this line of thought. It is completely different question. I fully agree people have dismissed this game beforehand. But of course, if Tameem did nothing that could in the least bit be interpreted as a problem, why is there a backlash?

Yes, I agree there are people who have overreacted, but that doesn't meant everyone has.

Me sensitive? I'm not the one taking what the others talk or think so deeply, who is talking about being offended or insulted. Or sending death letters, or telling everyone how NT is offering the middle finger. Or looking for every word that came from Tameen and interpreting those as insulting. You keep talking about Tammen's this and that, how he should've done things. Interpreting so much of what he said as offensive and arrogant. Let go. Wouldn't you feel better if you cared less about his visions and opinions? Not just him, but most people out there. Wouldn't you have more fun and give more chances?

Read this paragraph. That is exactly what you are doing.

I am not saying Tameem should have done anything, I am saying it was his choice to do what he did, and now he has to deal with the fallout, and that includes people deciding to avoid his game before it is even released. There are clear ways to handle fan backlash and in my opinion, Tameem handled it horribly, mainly because he is arrogant.

I feel fine by the way. I give chances, have plenty of fun and find myself quite open minded when it comes to my entertainment.

Had they done this game and called it anything else, it probably would be rated higher among the currently stubborn people who don't want to give this a chance, BUT...how could they? How could they do this game without it being called Devil May Cry rip-off for the rest of the life?

The same way other games in the genre have done just that. Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden, God of War, Metal Gear Rising, etc.

Oh, if a kid is bitten by a radioactive bat...I'll give it a chance. What if something great comes out of it? Of course there is going to be issues. Too many people can't seem to open their mind, give the benefit of doubt and learn to let go. I'm past that. That are more important things to care for.
Neither is yours. You're basing it on assumptions. ''Probably'' isn't certainly. I can assume too. I'm not. Look all over the internet the people posting about how they changed their minds. I'm not pointing a finger at you if that's what you understood. I've aready read that you played the game.

This is you passing judgment on others. It isn't about being open minded, it is about enjoying what you enjoy, valuing what you value.

It is. You quote me to express your opinion on being insulted, then starts talking about the involvement with the fans. Now you proceed with Hitler and life with no Earth. Don't drag this. You could have been objective enough without that.

Its point is very clear. Tameem made it very clear that the fans were completely, and totally irrelevant to his vision. Considering we are talking about videogames, where fans have been shown to be anything but, it is very relevant to people being insulted over being told that.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That's not true, regarding quality at all. Plenty of great games sell poorly for a multitude or reasons.

But how many of those belong to a franchise that has sold fairly well?

DmC is very specific case. It is a franchise which had a fanbase that kept it making case for years, even as half of the games were met with less then stellar reviews.

It has now fallen off a cliff.

 

[Jick]

Can you please use the quote function? It is hard to read what you are writing as it block and mixed with my words.

I didn't feel the need to, because I was going to post right after you, but other people posted, so I had to edit and quote.

He doesn't even know when the original game was released. He misrepresents Dante as a purely Japanese character, when he is clearly modeled on 80's American concepts.

Now imagine him saying the same thing about you, that it is obvious that Dante is a purely Japanese character and that in no way he is based on 80's American concepts. I don't think he'd be alone, neither would you. That is all opinion.

You are deflecting and deciding what matters and what doesn't. You are saying people are being "oversensitive" and yet you bring up how the internet not existing would make it irrelevant.

My point in bringing up the "What if" scenarios is to show how ludicrous that is. You can't detach the comments or make them go away by saying they only matter because we are able to see them. And you most certainly don't get to tell people how they feel about them. For you it is acting oversensitive, for others it is not.

Is it not being oversensitive complaining about how others feel about the game, pre-release or not? If it is all about your enjoyment of the game, why does it matter?

What? Holy--What posts are you reading? It's not like you're even quoting me. Or paying attention. Nor in this page or the other I mentioned the word oversensitve. I didn't even accuse you of being sensitive. This didn't come from me, it came from you. You're the one doing this:

You are posting in big broad ideas on a fan message board because you are being overly sensitive about others overly sensitive

Is it perhaps because you are sensitive to criticism the game you like is getting?

You're the one doing it. Don't get messed up with your own words.

By bringing up ''what if'' scenarios you're extrapolating. You're going as far as the origin of the world. Don't generalize. Each case is a case. What I want you to understand from what I said isn't that the internet is irrelevant - which I never said, to begin with, I was questioning you - is that, if you didn't read about his thoughts, you wouldn't be arguing this. Look how much you're stretching it. You're just assuming.

You think what Tameem was asked is new and controversial? It happens all the time. My point is that his manner, his way of speaking got him in trouble with a lot of fans of the series.

I am all for the discussion. I am not questioning the actual act of responding, but the words and manner in which they were delivered.

I am not talking about the quality of the game with this line of thought. It is completely different question. I fully agree people have dismissed this game beforehand. But of course, if Tameem did nothing that could in the least bit be interpreted as a problem, why is there a backlash?

No man, I don't think what Tameen was asked was new and controversial...because I didn't even mention that. I said that the project was controversial. We all know why (reboot, change of appearance, change of plot details, different developer and so on...). It is the different questions that come out that I meant. Instead of asking just those regular questions, like where is the story going on this time, how is the character being developed and usual stuff, people wanted to hear his opinion on the past series, thus asking him questions like how he feels about the old style, consequently getting the answers that they were looking for. I don't see this being asked (not saying that it isn't) as often like, for example, the director of the new God of War. Games don't usually have this backlash from fans from the get-go, after all, which came from the changes that they did.

Yes, I agree there are people who have overreacted, but that doesn't meant everyone has.

Absolutely. I think we can also agree that most were completely at odds and surprised (not exactly in a good way) when they saw that first trailer. I was. You can check my first posts in the thread to see it. I saw an unhealthy Dante, who smoked, who did look like an emo at that time, being held and tortured and he exhaled a completely different vibe. I really didn't like that. But...pictures started to come in. Gameplay videos too. Dante was different. He didn't look like an emo anymore. He even looked healthy. I felt I was already seeing a different character than that one presented in the first trailer. Then the gameplay videos came in and it started to win me. I also followed Tameen's responses and his views, but I didn't care. All I wanted was a good game. Fortunatelly, I didn't feel offended by anything. I'm sorry for those who did. I'm not even complaining about them. In my first post about this topic, I was just asking. Like I said before, I'm just puzzled about how so many people let that get over them and, sometimes, even cloud their judgement over something.

Read this paragraph. That is exactly what you are doing.

I am not saying Tameem should have done anything, I am saying it was his choice to do what he did, and now he has to deal with the fallout, and that includes people deciding to avoid his game before it is even released. There are clear ways to handle fan backlash and in my opinion, Tameem handled it horribly, mainly because he is arrogant.

I feel fine by the way. I give chances, have plenty of fun and find myself quite open minded when it comes to my entertainment.

What am I doing? Taking others opinions deeply? Nope. Look on this same page of our discussion. You were the one bringing links where Tameen is expressing himself about whatever it is and you're telling me that he is insulting or offensive or that he is being arrogant. Don't make me quote that to show you.

The same way other games in the genre have done just that. Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden, God of War, Metal Gear Rising, etc.

Isn't Bayonetta from the same developer of the previous DMC games? Do you take seriously when people say that God of War, Metal Gear Rising and other hack'n slash games are a rip-off? I honestly don't GOW plays extremely different. I never thought of DMC when playing that. Same for MGR. Now, when we put DmC and past DMC games side by side, we can see the obvious similarities between the gameplay and plot points.

This is you passing judgment on others. It isn't about being open minded, it is about enjoying what you enjoy, valuing what you value.

No, this is me seeing what is out there. Specially for those extreme people who dare to send death letters. I genuinely ask: don't they have more important things to care for? Job? Family? Money? College? Studies? Anything of real life? They're caring too much, and when I say this I mean way, way, too much, about games.
I also hated the fact that Ock took over Spidey's body, for example. But whatever. I won't lose my mind over that.

Its point is very clear. Tameem made it very clear that the fans were completely, and totally irrelevant to his vision. Considering we are talking about videogames, where fans have been shown to be anything but, it is very relevant to people being insulted over being told that.

It is unfortunate that you people are finding his opinions so insulting. What can we do? Not everyone is going to act the same way. I didn't see Tameen ever saying that nor interpreted it that way. Even if I did feel insulted at the time with those comments he gave...so what? He's the one working his ass off to give me the game while I'm relaxing on my sofa.