The Avengers The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 3

[Dark Raven]

Ive actually been watching the show start to finish for the last couple days/weeks it is/was a great show but gets kinda same thing goin on here vibe.

And the Antohawk Horror episode got my hopes up for a different Superhuman/Hulk fight. Damn them.

I just watched that the other day too. They could've had a Bigfoot/Sasquatch type monster there for the Hulk to fight, like in the 6MDM or Bionic Woman. Instead it just turned out to be a hoax to attract visitors to that town.

I don't see why they couldn't have had Hulk fight a robot as well. There were other scientists on the show, so one of them could've easily invented a robot.

I do wish that McGee had discovered Banner was alive and was the Hulk. They formed a bond and friendship in Mystery Man. McGee even said that he doesn't have many friends and showed concern for John Doe. McGee could've realised that the Hulk isn't a murderer and could've become an ally. That could've injected the show with a new lease of life half way through its run.

Also I wish that She-Hulk featured in it as well. She would've fitted much better than Thor or Daredevil. The main reason I would've liked to have seen her back then is that they would have to paint a tall, skimpily-dressed hot bodied woman in green paint because they couldn't do CGI back then. I wish we could've had that. She would also have advanced the overall plot more than some of these other stories, as Banner would've tried to find out why she retains her intelligence (if she did in the TV series).

She-Hulk could also have had been the same kind of ratings boost as Jaime Summers was as the Bionic Woman in that 2nd season Six Million Dollar Man episode. I'm surprised that Kenneth Johnson didn't try to repeat that formula twice. An optimum time to have her would've been that episode "Homecoming". Instead of making Banner have a sister, they could've used his cousin Jennifer Walters, and Banner's parents could've been Morris Walters and his wife instead. It would've been just like how Steve Austin went back home to Ojai, California and met up with his high school sweetheart Jaime, who became bionic following an accident. Jen Walters would've been similar (except she wouldn't be a romantic interest) and would've had a blood transfusion from Banner.

 

[Gamma Burst]

It was a brilliant show. I have very fond memories of it.

 

[Dark Raven]

It was a brilliant show. I have very fond memories of it.

It could've been better though, especially if Kenneth Johnson had borrowed elements from 6MDM and Bionic Woman, which both had more sci-fi and action in them than TIH.

Here are characters that I believe could've easily fitted in with the realistic tone of the series, but still having some sci fi elements like Bionic Woman:

1. Betty Ross - could've been in place of Elaina Marks (pilot), Carolyn (Married), or in Kim Catrall's role in Kindred Spirits.
2. General Thunderbolt Ross - could've been part of the military in Prometheus.
3. Dr Leonard Samson - in an number of episodes where Banner sought another doctor's help
4. Walter Langowski/ Sasquatch - in the Antowouk Horror or another episode.
5. Jennifer Walters/ She-Hulk - in place of Banner's sister in Homecoming.
6. Wendigo - could've been in the Antowouk Horror
7. Mecha Hulk
8. Abomination
9. Rick Jones -could've been in any number of episodes.

I think the Leader probably could've worked as well. The villains would probably all be sanitised versions of their comic counterparts but they would still have been doable.

The episode "The Snare" had a Kraven the Hunter like adversary. Shame they didn't actually use him, but he was probably owned by another studio.

 

[Godzilla2014]

One of the biggest problems that I think both Hulk films faced was this: How is the audiences meant to feel when Bruce Banner hulks out? Should we fear and dread it as Banner does? Should we feel excited to see the Hulk? Should we feel sorry for the Hulk? Do we root for him as he smashes things?

 

[Godzilla2014]

Very good point. Not only that but if we are to be excited about the Hulk's appearance, we as the audience are rooting directly against the protagonist of the film, who is trying to rid himself of the Hulk. It makes for a very awkward dynamic in terms of the viewing experience.

Exactly. And it only gets more awkward during battle sequences with the U.S. Military.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Read my mind. If I'm not totally rooting for him, then I want the U.S. Military to contain him. If I'm not totally convinced I'm on the side of Hulk, and I feel his pain when the military attacks me for SEEMINGLY (to Hulk at least) for no reason, then how do I react as the audience member? It muddies the viewing experience because I have no allegiances to ANY of the characters. And then it all comes out wooden and bland to me, and I don't care what happens at all. One of the many reasons both Hulk films have been so polarizing.

Pretty much. Add on to this that the Hulk rarely gets to have much depth in either film as he did in the comics, and I can definitely understand why audiences are ultimately confused.
I really think that making Hulk mute (or mostly mute) diluted the character. What is the Hulk, beyond a creature with great strength that Bruce Banner turns into when enraged?

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Exactly. And it only gets more awkward during battle sequences with the U.S. Military.

Why? Because with the military finally an antagonist arrives. Something you can boo off the screen. The military helps to get rid of the dilemma, because then you simply HAVE to root for the Hulk...

 

[Godzilla2014]

Why? Because with the military finally an antagonist arrives. Something you can boo off the screen. The military helps to get rid of the dilemma, because then you simply HAVE to root for the Hulk...

Not really. I think most Americans support their military, the people who choose to put their lives at risk in defense of their country. So they, in and of themselves, are not really seen in an antagonistic light. And making them villains usually ends up with cliche cardboard cutouts like Avatar's Colonel Miles Quaritch.

 

[Godzilla2014]

A rip off of King Kong / Frankenstein w/o the quality story telling, pathos, drama, and emotion.

Pretty much.

That's dumb though. What is there to boo about? They are trying to contain a WMD aka Hulk from potentially hurting innocent civilians when he goes on his rampages. What's so "antagonistic" about that, really?

They are also trying to re-acquire what is essentially THEIR property. A military creation due to an accident. They are technically doing the right thing, so if I'm not emotionally invested into WANTING to root for the Hulk. Why do I care? It's bad story telling.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Not really. I think most Americans support their military, the people who choose to put their lives at risk in defense of their country. So they, in and of themselves, are not really seen in an antagonistic light. And making them villains usually ends up with cliche cardboard cutouts like Avatar's Colonel Miles Quaritch.

Absolutely defending their country. Defending it somewhere but not where defending is usually done....

But let us not turn that into a political debate, this thread is about Hulk

 

[Norm3]

Its so important to humanize the Hulk by showing he can speak and he is not just a mindless mute brute. Marvel seems to be so afraid of that and I think that has to do with the TV Show. They think they need to connect to the TV show & I disagree.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Absolutely defending their country. Defending it somewhere but not where defending is usually done....

But let us not turn that into a political debate, this thread is about Hulk

In both Hulk films, the battle scenes took place on domestic soil. They were acting to stop Hulk from potentially causing harm to innocent civilians. And it really doesn't resolve the dilemma of whether the audience should root for Bruce Banner or Hulk, when the goals of each contradict the other's.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

In both Hulk films, the battle scenes took place on domestic soil. They were acting to stop Hulk from potentially causing harm to innocent civilians. And it really doesn't resolve the dilemma of whether the audience should root for Bruce Banner or Hulk, when the goals of each contradict the other's.

If the military hadn't arrived (The Culver University for example) there wouldn't be a hulkout and civilians wouldn't even be in danger. So they are more an agressor than anything else. I can't follow your logic at all.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Now, with that said we CAN possibly see the US Military as a villain or antagonists if say we have ACTUAL emotional connection to the film's protagonist, and we KNOW for a fact he's on the side of good, or what he is trying to do is right, and he's being un-fairly persecuted or if the power of the military's might is being used for personal vendettas.

Such examples I can think of where I was rooting for the film's protagnist against the forces of the US military.

X2 - v.s. the U.S. Air Force F-16's
Iron Man - Tony v.s. the F-22's

And it looks as if in the "Man of Steel" Superman is going to be confronted by the military as well.

But with a misunderstood monster that we the audience don't know what side he's on (good or bad) and if we haven't been convinced to root for him or root for him not to appear (which is what both films were confused by) the audience is left with more questions, and in the end, they just don't care WHAT happens.

Agreed. And even in the cases you listed here, the heroes aren't trying to destroy the US military forces, but to stop the confrontation before that becomes necessary. The Hulk, on the other hand, immediately starts throwing tanks and smashing HMMVs.

Its so important to humanize the Hulk by showing he can speak and he is not just a mindless mute brute. Marvel seems to be so afraid of that and I think that has to do with the TV Show. They think they need to connect to the TV show & I disagree.

Agreed. Hulk needs to be a character for the audience to really root for him.

 

[Godzilla2014]

It probably also has to deal with the fact it could come across as EXTREMELY cheesy and ridiculous. Keeping him as silent as possible to them may make them feel like he will be taken more seriously on screen.

Seeing a giant CGI created green beast man in purple shorts talking and expressing himself. It's inherently kind of ridiculous. Works with Lou Ferrigno because he's real. The human eye can't be tricked into believing computer generated human mannerisms. Our eyes catch subtle things that can't be created. Now, a giant CGI created ape. THAT works.

Hulk needs a voice.

If the military hadn't arrived (The Culver University for example) there wouldn't be a hulkout and civilians wouldn't even be in danger. So they are more an agressor than anything else. I can't follow your logic at all.

Military action isn't the only thing that could trigger Banner to hulkout. Who's to say that Banner would never have transformed for some other reason like if he was mugged or something like that. It's just not as simple you make it out to be. So long as he transforms, Bruce Banner is a potential threat to public safety.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Wrong. Civilians are in danger ALWAYS being around Banner and they don't even know it. That's why the military is justified in trying to capture him. They are actually the ones being heroic. Afterall in the film it states that I believe when he first hulked out in the lab he killed one of the assistants, and he also killed a hunter in Alaska. Banner could've hulked out in his mere confrontation with the bullies from his work even if the military didn't show up. Banner just existing out in public makes him a danger to others.

Wholeheartedly agreed.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Wrong. Civilians are in danger ALWAYS being around Banner and they don't even know it. That's why the military is justified in trying to capture him. They are actually the ones being heroic. Afterall in the film it states that I believe when he first hulked out in the lab he killed one of the assistants, and he also killed a hunter in Alaska. Banner could've hulked out in his mere confrontation with the bullies from his work even if the military didn't show up. Banner just existing out in public makes him a danger to others.

So do cars. I don't see the US military shooting of cars to be heroes. Or drunk people, because they are POTENTIALLY dangerous..

 

[Godzilla2014]

So do cars. I don't see the US military shooting of cars to be heroes. Or drunk people, because they are POTENTIALLY dangerous..

The difference is the scale. The Hulk is living weapon of mass destruction. The amount of damage a drunk person and/or a car could do pales in comparison to the damage the Hulk could do.

 

[Godzilla2014]

How do you do that on screen and take him seriously? How much do you have him speak? Especially if you use Lou Ferrigno's handicap sounding voice? haha

They say the second your story's protagonist turns into something or someone completely else ... you lose the viewer.

And still I don't know if CGI is good enough, or at least what Marvel Studios tries spending on, if it's good enough to create a completely believable image.

Like I said a complete CGI creation can be believable to an extent on non-human like creatures. But it is still yet to be done to be totally believable.

BTW who is doing the VFX work this time around on CGI Hulk for Avengers? Are they sparing no expense? Or they going the extremely cheap and fake looking route they did in 2008 w/ TIH?

Because how a VFX creation from ILM from 2003 can look more believable than a VFX creation five years later is completely inexcuseable to me.

The CGI has nothing to do with it. Give the Hulk an appropriate voice (that sounds like you would expect a very large man to sound like) and the audience wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

[Godzilla2014]

You're going to extreme means to justify your arguments. We have police to protect us from cars, drunk drivers, etc.

Rage filled monsters that can do millions of dollars of damage to properties or worse to actual people needs to be reigned in ...

Banner is the metaphor for literally a walking nuclear bomb.

And you're cool with that being out in the open? Your argument is ridiculous to compare a nuke to stray cars, or drunk drivers.

And keep in mind that Banner has neither control of Hulk or his transformation into said creature. So it's not like you could expect him to control himself as Hulk or simply not change into the beast.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Oh the CGI def. has a part to play in all of this. And I was asking you a legit question by the way, bro haha

What I meant was that people will either buy a giant green man talking, or they won't, just as they would a mute one. After all, audiences buy CGI creations talking all the time in a menagerie of films.

I'm saying, I agree. If you get the believable image, you have to give him a voice and motive for the audience to root for or against. Otherwise ... he's pointless even being there.

Agreed.

 

[Dark Raven]

Movie Reshape is the answer to CGI that still isn't quite up to scratch:

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You can use a real actor, but his body parts are augmented using this technology while still looking natural. He can be made to look taller, more muscular, wider etc. This is what they should do instead of just trying to rely on pure CGI or motion capture. This way you still have a real actor providing all the subtle facial movements and emotions, and he will still move like a human being.

Get Lou Ferrigno or another more muscular bodybuilder, and apply Movie Reshape to him.

 

[Dark Raven]

You should be in charge of Hulk's movies. Absolutely a better technique, IMO. Add some prosthetics, camera techniques REAL film making creativity, the way they did back in the day before CGI ruined the craft and GASP ... FINALLY a believable Hulk. CGI is for lazy film makers. CGI should only be used to ACCENTUATE the image. Not BE the image. Even in 2011 it still looks fake as hell. Watch Green Lantern. The only damn thing real in the entire frame is Ryan Reynolds head crudely plastered on a green screen. Everything else looks so phony.

Movie Reshape would've been a legitimate way to have Lou Ferrigno still involved with either TIH or The Avengers instead of just this voiceover business. There is a big difference seeing his name in the credits as the Hulk to seeing either Norton or Ruffalo as the Hulk. It's a name in Hulk circles that carries weight.

Movie Reshape would've been able to alter his height, muscularity and even facial features to look like the comic Hulk. I'm sure it (or a similar program) could probably alter his skin tone too. The main problem with the look of the TV Hulk was his makeup, body paint that kept coming off, height and muscularity, which could never resemble something from the comics. However, in terms of his realism (ie whether he looked like something real or something CGI), he definitely looked more realistic than any of the movie Hulks. I am sure that even the fright wig could be made to look more realistic with a movie budget.

If Movie Reshape is dealing with all the physical characteristics and facial features of the character, then the actor is the one dealing with the realistic aspect - which of course, he will look real because he is a real person. That way the audiences would fully accept the Hulk because there wouldn't even be the issue of him not blending with the other actors or scenery. Then you wouldn't be taken out of the movie at any point, at least on that aspect.

And I agree that in 2011 it still looks fake. Even Rise of the Planet of the Apes still isn't 100% there.

 

[Mjölnir]

That's dumb though. What is there to boo about? They are trying to contain a WMD aka Hulk from potentially hurting innocent civilians when he goes on his rampages. What's so "antagonistic" about that, really?

They are also trying to re-acquire what is essentially THEIR property. A military creation due to an accident. They are technically doing the right thing, so if I'm not emotionally invested into WANTING to root for the Hulk. Why do I care? It's bad story telling.

I'd rather say it's more interesting and intelligent storytelling if they don't just go with the obvious bad guys that are just wrong in everything they do. A villain that has no redeeming qualities is usually a boring and flat villain and that's bad (or at least simple) story telling, just like protagonists that are flawless.

The movie could have been even more interesting if the Hulk did more bad deeds unintentionally.

 

[Gamma_Powered_God]

We know that he'll be speaking, because he'll be interacting with the team. It will probably be gruff, and in broken sentences, but he will be talking. Joss has all the years of Buffy and all the practical effects with creatures from that under his belt, so I'm guessing we won't allow crappy cgi to pass. The final product should be the most realistic cgi Hulk we've had.