The Avengers The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 7

[Gamma Ra]

I agree. I love EMH hulk...talks in first person but still has a brutish and rugged mentality...not the sharpest tool in the shed but far from a stupid monster.

Nice!

 

[Gamma Goliath]

I freaking love EMH hulk. He's funny and only talks when necessary.

 

[Drummerdude7]

At the beginning of the series when he faces Ross and his machines in the desert, beats them all, and the turns to Ross's tank and growls '....you're next.' Chills.

 

[Gamma Ra]

Hulk is a character that is brief and speaks to the point...He has no time for fun and games. LOL

 

[BigThor]

I agree with you all EMH's Hulk being awesome, it's probably my favorite portrayal of Hulk in recent media. t:

 

[El Payaso]

I disagree. Bixby's Banner was darker to me than either of the previous two. He was shown as having anger problems long before his experiment. In fact he came across as more unhinged because of what I said, he showed more emotion. Bixby himself was a very intense individual prone to outbursts of anger, he definitely sold the distress without having to be a bore. Its all in the eyes.

I think it's explained once that he was calm and there was a point in stress where he just lose it and the transformation begins. Like what TIH did with heartbeats but with the level of anger.

By the way, when I mention flirting or joking, it made him more interesting and well rounded, but he and Elaina never even touched each other sexually once, and their relationship still was more believable than anything in the films. I actually think its one of the most convincing relationships in a comic based property ever, all achieved without a single kiss. I enjoy Bana and love Norton, but neither was interesting, dark or particularly intense in comparison to Bill. Not even close.

I have to agree. Every superhero movie after another it's the same thing about love interests: they all suck. they're there just because or are annoying or are one-dimensional, etc.

But in the TV pilot it was more believable and tragic that dozens of kisses and tragic music. And it barely took any screentime. It was just floating there. And it made the most of the Hulk state: Hulk knows she loved Banner but Banner himself can't remember it, which makes us, the audiences, the only mute witness of this tragic love. Impossible not to get engaged.

I was was just recalling how many years ago there was some debate on this board about whether Hulk would look silly being able to speak in a live action film. I think even Stan Lee once held this opinion too.

Stan Lee said, "In the comic books I had him talking, because a pannel without any dialogue baloons - and I couldn't give him thought baloons cuz he was too dumb - it can get a little uninteresting. When we started the TV show, Ken said to me, you know Stan I don't think the Hulk should talk. The minute he said it I knew he was right. Because I had, in the beginning, I had the Hulk talking like this, "Hulk crash! Hulk get him!" you know, I could get away with it in a comic, but would have sounded so silly if he spoke that way in a TV show. SO by having him not talk at all I think he made it more like a real monster, more frightening than that silly pidgeon dialogue. Everything about that show was good."

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEQki8T3fr0

I was was just recalling how many years ago there was some debate on this board about whether Hulk would look silly being able to speak in a live action film. I think even Stan Lee once held this opinion too. Hulk has said his famous "Puny human" line in the 2003 film as well as his calling cards "Hulk Smash" "Leave me alone" and "Betty" lines in the 2008 film. IMO...those were some of the best scenes.

Thing is, were the scenes good because Hulk talked?

I liked a lot the "leave me alone," because it was said in the shadows. It was almost if Hulk's "soul" was speaking. "Betty" was also good because it showed what it always shows: Hulk cares for her. "Hulk smash" I didn't give a damn about. I mean it wasn't and and it's justifiable because it's Hulk's famous line but only from the movie's perspe3ctive it added nothing to teh action.

Which leads me to the next point: my problem with Hulk speaking is what is he going to be talk about. Many times Hulk just keep describing what he's doing, what's he's going to do and what he feels. And that's everything a writer shouldn't put in a character's mouth. You show instead of tell.

But giving Hulk a full personality doesn't sound bad. Problem is, how. Just having him speaking is not the magical solution.

I wonder with Hulk being a bit more vocal in the Avengers movie if the same posters will feel the same way, which is something I never understood considering many weird looking creatures are able to speak in films?

I have to see the movie first.

But if King Kong had spoken... I don't know.

^They claimed it would just be weird having someone in a mask or with non-human looking constantly carrying on conversations. Treating them more as a special effect. I noticed that Iron Man rarely spoke in the first one when he goes on his first mission to the Middle East.

It was weird when Spider-man and Goblin had their little chat on that rooftop. It looked just like two costumed characters barely nodding once in a while while their voices sounded. To me it looked weird and boring. They could have been regular people in Tobey and Willem's costumes and it wouldn't ahve made any difference.

The problem to me is that the masks have a personality. Not only Spider-man and Goblin's but any mask. And that personality has to come out through the actor and that involves hard work, using your whole body, etc. Not just talk with the mask on.

I think translating Spider-man's mask to the screen is a major challenge because the original design could easily not work as the quick-witted superhero we all know. That's why they had him losing his mask all the time (and I saw a lot of unmasked Spider-man in the TAS trailers).

I remember the old Spider-man live action series. The mask had a special look. It worked for the mkisterious character he was there, but not sure about the way he is in the comics.

 

[terry78]

The Hulk's personality is basically that while he's prone to anger, he's just a very suspicious guy that has problems trusting anyone, and kind of puts up a wall. Even if he does consider you a friend, he's always thinking, "are they gonna start attacking me the minute something goes wrong, or are they just trying to befriend me for their own benefit? " Which honestly, is not that far off the mark regarding what he's dealt with over the years. While he enjoys fighting, he'd rather just be by himself more often than not.

 

[Mjölnir]

I disagree. Bixby's Banner was darker to me than either of the previous two. He was shown as having anger problems long before his experiment. In fact he came across as more unhinged because of what I said, he showed more emotion. Bixby himself was a very intense individual prone to outbursts of anger, he definitely sold the distress without having to be a bore. Its all in the eyes.

By the way, when I mention flirting or joking, it made him more interesting and well rounded, but he and Elaina never even touched each other sexually once, and their relationship still was more believable than anything in the films. I actually think its one of the most convincing relationships in a comic based property ever, all achieved without a single kiss. I enjoy Bana and love Norton, but neither was interesting, dark or particularly intense in comparison to Bill. Not even close.

Ruffalo speaks of his Banner's relationship with Stark, and I guess that its partially why people have warmed to his portrayal. He's getting to show depth, his ability to help other people, and reminds the audience that this guy was an accomplished professional at one point in his life. He really is a human with a full range of emotions. Sounds like the right approach so that we're engaged with Banner first, not just marking time for the Hulk.

Yes, we disagree then, which is fine. Not that I've seen much of the TV series in recent times but when I've done so (none have been the pilot) I've just felt that it was dated all across the board, and that's while I have plenty of old movies that I love.

When I saw the series as a kid I found Banner a bit boring as well (but as a kid I was more into the action by default) so I guess I haven't been interested in Banner on the screen until the last decade.

In TIH I actually thought the Banner moments were better than the Hulk ones. I still think the other MCU films are better but I've contributed that to the character this far. We'll see if I change my mind about that after TA.

 

[El Payaso]

The Hulk's personality is basically that while he's prone to anger, he's just a very suspicious guy that has problems trusting anyone, and kind of puts up a wall. Even if he does consider you a friend, he's always thinking, "are they gonna start attacking me the minute something goes wrong, or are they just trying to befriend me for their own benefit? " Which honestly, is not that far off the mark regarding what he's dealt with over the years. While he enjoys fighting, he'd rather just be by himself more often than not.

This is why I've never 'seen' the Hulk at a table talking about attack strategies and eager to co-operate with customed dudes.

Yes, we disagree then, which is fine. Not that I've seen much of the TV series in recent times but when I've done so (none have been the pilot) I've just felt that it was dated all across the board, and that's while I have plenty of old movies that I love.

If you have to see anything Hulk TV series, that's the pilot. There are good episodes but nothing like the pilot. That's a true Jekyll & Hyde type of movie.

 

[Doc Samson]

Yes, we disagree then, which is fine. Not that I've seen much of the TV series in recent times but when I've done so (none have been the pilot) I've just felt that it was dated all across the board, and that's while I have plenty of old movies that I love.

When I saw the series as a kid I found Banner a bit boring as well (but as a kid I was more into the action by default) so I guess I haven't been interested in Banner on the screen until the last decade.

In TIH I actually thought the Banner moments were better than the Hulk ones. I still think the other MCU films are better but I've contributed that to the character this far. We'll see if I change my mind about that after TA.

Well you may not know my viewpoint on the show, but I have alot of disdain for it, in particular the Hulk himself, and how it skewed the public perception of who the Hulk is, even though I give it a slight pass given the limitations of the time.

However Bixby was the greatest thing about it to me, and IMO, gave one of the best comic portrayals in that Pilot. At times he was more scary than the Hulk himself for me as a child. Actually most of the time.

Speaking of which, the Pilot (and the Married episode) are the only things I'm citing when comparing. The show itself was obviously very formulaic.

But I dare you to watch (or re-watch) the Pilot and not feel as though Bixby outclasses both previous Banner incarnations, while making the whole ordeal more riveting and tense. Really just two scenes are necessary, when he arrives at Elaina's Apartment after the first Hulk-Out and the Pressure Chamber scene, from the beginning up to the transformation. It has more range and feeling than anything I got from the films. His intelligence, charisma, ingenuity, temper, chemistry with Elaina, all on display, all in one scene.

 

[Gamma Ra]

Stan Lee said, "In the comic books I had him talking, because a pannel without any dialogue baloons - and I couldn't give him thought baloons cuz he was too dumb - it can get a little uninteresting. When we started the TV show, Ken said to me, you know Stan I don't think the Hulk should talk. The minute he said it I knew he was right. Because I had, in the beginning, I had the Hulk talking like this, "Hulk crash! Hulk get him!" you know, I could get away with it in a comic, but would have sounded so silly if he spoke that way in a TV show. SO by having him not talk at all I think he made it more like a real monster, more frightening than that silly pidgeon dialogue. Everything about that show was good."

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEQki8T3fr0

Stan has said many things over the years...Let's take a look at what he said around the time he was a creative consultant for the show when the show was aired circa 1978. This comes from a magazine called Pizazz...

"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Pizzazz: How does the TV Hulk compare to the comic book Hulk?
[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Stan: Well, one thing I’ve been saying is that on the TV show they should make the Hulk a bit more intelligent. Or, at least, we should get the feeling that he’s trying to understand. In the comics, I used to refer to the Hulks “clouded brain.” But so far on the TV show, he’s been treated as though he has no brain at all. Still, if he didn’t have some kind of brain, how would he know only to attack only the bad guys? I’d like to see the TV Hulk try to speak. Ken Johnson, the show’s producer, may be leaning in that direction too. I just think it would be interesting if his IQ were raised a little."[/FONT]

http://www.incrediblehulktvseries.com/InterviewsAndArticles/Press19.html

Well there you have it folks Stans own word at the time the show was aired...this was Stan Lees original thought about the live action Hulk. It was Kenneth Johnson that changed it as I proved to you over and over.

Thing is, were the scenes good because Hulk talked?

I liked a lot the "leave me alone," because it was said in the shadows. It was almost if Hulk's "soul" was speaking. "Betty" was also good because it showed what it always shows: Hulk cares for her. "Hulk smash" I didn't give a damn about. I mean it wasn't and and it's justifiable because it's Hulk's famous line but only from the movie's perspe3ctive it added nothing to teh action.

I was stating that I liked those scenes and I don't recall seeing anyone thinking they looked silly except you.

Which leads me to the next point: my problem with Hulk speaking is what is he going to be talk about. Many times Hulk just keep describing what he's doing, what's he's going to do and what he feels. And that's everything a writer shouldn't put in a character's mouth. You show instead of tell.

But giving Hulk a full personality doesn't sound bad. Problem is, how. Just having him speaking is not the magical solution.

You still really don't read much Hulk, do you? You clearly have no idea how Hulk converses. You're at best describing one aspect of Savage Hulk.

Just look at how he reacts in comics now, but especially EMHs, that's all I'm asking...because that is the Hulk(at least one incarnation).

I have to see the movie first.

But if King Kong had spoken... I don't know.

Seeing the movie was a prerequisite to what I posted above.

And by the way Hulk is not King Kong. Hulk is a man that transforms to a monstrous being...King Kong is just an average animal.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Yes I watched it and its the worst comic book movie I have seen apart from Batman and Robin

Oh, you....you're gonna be fun on the forums; I can already tell this.

You didn't pay attention I guess while watching TIH as your assumptions of the Hulk in that film were all wrong. He was very strong and not skinny, he did have regenerative abilities, bullets did not hurt him, he did speak a little and he did become angrier during his fight with Abomination...which explains why he finally defeated him since Abomination had his number through the entire fight until the end.

Again, I don't think you at least paid attention to TIH as your remarks are just laughable biased remarks.

 

[Endeavor]

I know this is not the movie reaction thread, but having seen it last Saturday, and loved it, I wanted to share.

Spoiler

[BLACKOUT]While I loved Hulk in this film, one down side was that again he barely speaks. We have been speculating that this time around we'd get something closer to what we see in EMH but that's not the case. He does show more intelligence than in the previous movies though, but that is shown through his expressions and interactions with other characters, not so much with speech. Please do not take this to mean that his part in the movie wasn't awesome. Some of the best scenes in this film involve Hulk. But I thought it would be best to go in with the right level of expectations, which is why I'm posting this here. I don't want anybody to be disappointed[/BLACKOUT]

 

[terry78]

Hmmmm....

 

[Gamma Ra]

This is why I've never 'seen' the Hulk at a table talking about attack strategies and eager to co-operate with customed dudes.





If you have to see anything Hulk TV series, that's the pilot. There are good episodes but nothing like the pilot. That's a true Jekyll & Hyde type of movie.

You have never seen Hulk sitting around the table talking about stratagies because you clearly have never read Bill Mantlo's work, Peter David's, Paul Jenkins' or more recently Greg Pak's Hulk runs...because he did that at one time or another when they wrote him. Stan Lee even had Hulk and Namor plan an attack against the Avenger in his earliest days.

The pilot was indeed the best but many episodes stand out. The First, Prometheus, the one with the guy who beat his family etc...

 

[El Payaso]

Stan has said many things over the years...Let's take a look at what he said around the time he was a creative consultant for the show when the show was aired circa 1978. This comes from a magazine called Pizazz...

"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Pizzazz: How does the TV Hulk compare to the comic book Hulk?
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Stan: Well, one thing I’ve been saying is that on the TV show they should make the Hulk a bit more intelligent. Or, at least, we should get the feeling that he’s trying to understand. In the comics, I used to refer to the Hulks “clouded brain.” But so far on the TV show, he’s been treated as though he has no brain at all. Still, if he didn’t have some kind of brain, how would he know only to attack only the bad guys? I’d like to see the TV Hulk try to speak. Ken Johnson, the show’s producer, may be leaning in that direction too. I just think it would be interesting if his IQ were raised a little."[/FONT]

http://www.incrediblehulktvseries.com/InterviewsAndArticles/Press19.html

Well there you have it folks Stans own word at the time the show was aired...this was Stan Lees original thought about the live action Hulk.

As many people, Stan's opinion has matured over the years. We all have first impressions and sometimes they change when we see the whole thing. According to your quote, the TV series was starting or in the middle of it. But in every single episode you could see Hulk understanding what to do, who to defend and who to attack.

It was Kenneth Johnson that changed it as I proved to you over and over.

You have proven to me something I already knew (in my Stan lee's quote he says it was all Johnson's idea, did you read?)? That's so funny. Would be a waste of time, wouldn't you say?

I was stating that I liked those scenes and I don't recall seeing anyone thinking they looked silly except you.

So to you, saying "I liked a lot," "was also good" and "it's justifiable" is the same as saying "silly."

There's a serious miscomprehension here, wouldn't you say?

You still really don't read much Hulk, do you? You clearly have no idea how Hulk converses. You're at best describing one aspect of Savage Hulk.

Just look at how he reacts in comics now, but especially EMHs, that's all I'm asking...because that is the Hulk(at least one incarnation).

So, you're mad that I speak about one incarnation of Hulk only and then it's perfectly okay to ask for one incarnatioon of him only?

Curious, to say the least.

And by the way Hulk is not King Kong. Hulk is a man that transforms to a monstrous being...King Kong is just an average animal.

Sure, King Kong is an average animal, the same as Hulk is just an average monster.

All gorillas are 20 meters tall. Well, not all, the 'average' gorilla. t:

You have never seen Hulk sitting around the table talking about stratagies because you clearly have never read Bill Mantlo's work, Peter David's, Paul Jenkins' or more recently Greg Pak's Hulk runs...because he did that at one time or another when they wrote him. Stan Lee even had Hulk and Namor plan an attack against the Avenger in his earliest days.

You are replying to that only because you have again misread. I said " 'seen' " as in 'pictured,' 'seen in my mind.' It's a figure of speech, not to be taken literally.

The pilot was indeed the best but many episodes stand out. The First, Prometheus, the one with the guy who beat his family etc...

"A Child in Need."

 

[Gamma Ra]

Curious question:

If there are any posters who are averse to Hulk speaking, could you explain why?

Not looking for any battles...I'm simply curious to understand the other side of the fence

This is all I was asking too...I'm not trying to get a rise out of anyone. I'm just curious what the die-hards against Hulk speaking will view it after they have seen it.

I'm sure Marvel Studio's will mostly be concerned with the General Audiences response as a whole and not just this boards.

 

[Hmarrs]

Yes I watched it and its the worst comic book movie I have seen apart from Batman and Robin

Oh, you....you're gonna be fun on the forums; I can already tell this.

You didn't pay attention I guess while watching TIH as your assumptions of the Hulk in that film were all wrong. He was very strong and not skinny, he did have regenerative abilities, bullets did not hurt him, he did speak a little and he did become angrier during his fight with Abomination...which explains why he finally defeated him since Abomination had his number through the entire fight until the end.

Again, I don't think you at least paid attention to TIH as your remarks are just laughable biased remarks.

I wouldn't say that those are his opinions he may not see it or interpert it as you do.
Compared to Ang's Hulk he does come off as rather skinny and sickly actually.
Also speaking about the bullets they may or may not been able to hurt him
however it sure does give that indication by him using shield to protect himself.
Also there was no scene that focuses on his regenitive powers as in Ang's Hulk where he gets hurt and we see it heal.I guess it's assumed just like alot of the movie including his jumping.
Also while I'm sure he does get stronger when he fights Abob.
I remember his Eyes getting brighter however he never really acts on it.
He slams the ground which cause Abob to lose control of the ball and chain where the Hulk then takes advantage of the situation.It never came across to me as if he out powered him as much as out smarted him.
So to me the point was lost.

 

[Gamma Ra]

As many people, Stan's opinion has matured over the years. We all have first impressions and sometimes they change when we see the whole thing. According to your quote, the TV series was starting or in the middle of it. But in every single episode you could see Hulk understanding what to do, who to defend and who to attack.

Well if that's the case, Stan was last quoted after TIH 2008 that Hulk was supposed to be more Jekyll and Hyde He then stated that they should yet reboot the Hulk again. Talk about maturing.

You have proven to me something I already knew (in my Stan lee's quote he says it was all Johnson's idea, did you read?)? That's so funny. Would be a waste of time, wouldn't you say?

Uh...I was the person that pointed that video you posted out to you and the fact that Kenneth Johnson was the one who originally thought it would look stupid if Hulk spoke....remember?!?

So to you, saying "I liked a lot," "was also good" and "it's justifiable" is the same as saying "silly."
There's a serious miscomprehension here, wouldn't you say?

It was my opinion only. I was qualifying the fact that there is nothing silly to me about seeing Hulk speaking. It would have been another thing if I saw him speak, then changed my mind and said..."Wow!!! Did that look silly!!!"

So, you're mad that I speak about one incarnation of Hulk only and then it's perfectly okay to ask for one incarnatioon of him only?

Curious, to say the least.

I'm not mad at you about anything. I'm just pointing out where you were wrong.

Sure, King Kong is an average animal, the same as Hulk is just an average monster.

All gorillas are 20 meters tall. Well, not all, the 'average' gorilla. t:

Hulk is still born of a human. But what constitutes an average monster...who can really say?

You are replying to that only because you have again misread. I said " 'seen' " as in 'pictured,' 'seen in my mind.' It's a figure of speech, not to be taken literally.



"A Child in Need."

Whatever makes the child sleep better at night....

 

[T"Challa]

I will say this after seeing the movie. Kevin feige and the rest of the Marvel brass need to give some serious thought into making another Hulk movie with Ruffalo. And they should do their damndest to get Whedon involved in some capacity. Those two it seems, totally got the essence of the character. I love me some Ed Norton but Ruffalo just clicked so much better. The audiences reaction to Hulk was crazy. There is a little 15 sec action scene [BLACKOUT]right after Cap orders Hulk to "smash"[/BLACKOUT] and it dwarfs anything we have ever seen action wise from the Hulk on the big screen ever. The crowd went bonkers

 

[Gamma Burst]

Well if that's the case, Stan was last quoted after TIH 2008 that Hulk was supposed to be more Jekyll and Hyde He then stated that they should yet reboot the Hulk again. Talk about maturing.


Uh...I was the person that pointed that video you posted out to you and the fact that Kenneth Johnson was the one who originally thought it would look stupid if Hulk spoke....remember?!?


It was my opinion only. I was qualifying the fact that there is nothing silly to me about seeing Hulk speaking. It would have been another thing if I saw him speak, then changed my mind and said..."Wow!!! Did that look silly!!!"


I'm not mad at you about anything. I'm just pointing out where you were wrong.


Hulk is still born of a human. But what constitutes an average monster...who can really say?


Whatever makes the child sleep better at night....

You shouldn't bother.It's clear from his posts that El Payaso knows absolutely nothing about the character.

 

[Gamma Ra]

You shouldn't bother.It's clear from his posts that El Payaso knows absolutely nothing about the character.

I have no plans today and Payaso and I have done this many times...and most times it's just too damn fun my friend.

I actually agree with him, that the 1977 pilot is the best Hulk film to date.

 

[Gamma Burst]

I have no plans todayand Payaso and I have done this many times...and most times it's just too damn fun my friend.

I actually agree with him, that the 1977 pilot is the best Hulk film to date.

I understand. I wish I could enjoy it as much as you do.

 

[El Payaso]

Well if that's the case, Stan was last quoted after TIH 2008 that Hulk was supposed to be more Jekyll and Hyde He then stated that they should yet reboot the Hulk again. Talk about maturing.

Oh, please link us.

And if I'm not mistaken I was talking about his first impression on the TV show, not the movies. But the TV show did a good mix of Jekyll & Hyde and Frankenstein, so I'm all for it.

Uh...I was the person that pointed that video you posted out to you and the fact that Kenneth Johnson was the one who originally thought it would look stupid if Hulk spoke....remember?!?

I don't. But it's pretty well documented Kenneth Johnson didn't like the comic-y aspoects of the Hulk and made the changes.

It was my opinion only. I was qualifying the fact that there is nothing silly to me about seeing Hulk speaking. It would have been another thing if I saw him speak, then changed my mind and said..."Wow!!! Did that look silly!!!"

No, it's not your opinion on Hulk speaking, it's your opinion on what I think of it: "I don't recall seeing anyone thinking they looked silly except you."

And I had just said that I liked those and yet you have problems.

So please I can get you miscomprehensing other people's words, but your own...?

I'm not mad at you about anything. I'm just pointing out where you were wrong.

Wrong by choosing one incarnation only. Whereas you asked for one incarnation only. Yes, I got it.

Hulk is still born of a human. But what constitutes an average monster...who can really say?

I can say a 20 meter tall gorilla is not average.

But it was you who compared speaking Hulk when said "many weird looking creatures are able to speak in films." So who cares if Hulk was born a human if you were talking about weird looking creatures.

Whatever makes the child sleep better at night....

So you didn't get "A Child in Need" was the title of the episode about the father that beats his son? Well it matches your level of miscomprehension but at least you could do some research before flaming.

I actually agree with him, that the 1977 pilot is the best Hulk film to date.

As I agreed that the times when Hulk spoke were good.

It's you that are unable to either understand what's written.

 

[Gamma Ra]

I understand. I wish I could enjoy it as much as you do.

Have you heard any news about the television show?

I went to DelToro's site and tried to make an avatar, so I could be cool like you and the Strongest One There Is, but it didn't let me. What did you do?