The Avengers The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

[Fifthchild]

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Thor still seemed pretty fit to me, even after the major stomping he got, before the Jet attacked. The only time we ever really see Thor hurt, is when Loki stabs him in the gut. I guess no one argues, that if the fight had continued, that physically Hulk would have gained the upper hand. Because, well, that's what the Hulk is all about. Getting stronger as he gets angrier. But what we shouldn't forget, is that Thor knew that Banner was inside the Hulk and was more concerned with calming him down. That's why we get something like Thor riding on his back, trying to subdue him instead of continuously smashing Hulk's face with the hammer.

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I think people are taking this "calm him down" thing a bit far. Generally if you are trying to calm someone down you dont smack them in the face with a hammer and then throw it at them. At all. Yes Thor originally hoped to calm him down but i think that plan ended the minute Hulk punched him. I dont think Thor was smiling after that punch because he was looking forward to the prospect of trying out some of his famous psychological skills on a worthy opponent. Basically after that punch - it was a proper fight. For both of them. Much to the detriment of the surrounding environment. Which is an idea that is very familiar from the comics.

 

[Goliath]

I agree 100% with you, Fifthchild.

 

[Mjölnir]

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I think people are taking this "calm him down" thing a bit far. Generally if you are trying to calm someone down you dont smack them in the face with a hammer and then throw it at them. At all. Yes Thor originally hoped to calm him down but i think that plan ended the minute Hulk punched him. I dont think Thor was smiling after that punch because he was looking forward to the prospect of trying out some of his famous psychological skills on a worthy opponent. Basically after that punch - it was a proper fight. For both of them. Much to the detriment of the surrounding environment. Which is an idea that is very familiar from the comics.

Spoiler

One significant reason why people talk about that Thor tried to calm him down is that Thor never uses any of his big attacks that he does both before and after the Hulk fight in the film. I think it's quite reasonable to see it as Thor isn't giving his all, while Hulk is since he's in uncontrolled rage. Even disregarding that Thor shows more power before and after it's quite unlikely that he would go from trying to calm Hulk down to trying to kill him.

 

[Goliath]

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One significant reason why people talk about that Thor tried to calm him down is that Thor never uses any of his big attacks that he does both before and after the Hulk fight in the film.

Thor's lightning attack barely scratched IM. Who is to say it would damage the Hulk who, let's face it, is more MUCH more durable than Iron Man?

 

[Mjölnir]

Thor's lightning attack barely scratched IM. Who is to say it would damage the Hulk who, let's face it, is more MUCH more durable than Iron Man?

Iron Man hardly took any damage because the Arc Reactor absorbed it. That's not very relevant to what I've said though.

Spoiler

I said that Thor wasn't trying his best because he doesn't use his big attacks (lightning, lighting powered strike or the power of strike that he threw on Cap's shield). I didn't say that Thor would just have smacked Hulk around if he tried harder, the point is instead that we don't know the outcome if he had (which is the best scenario imo).

Hulk wasn't shown as invulnerable though. He was knocked out by the fall to the ground.

 

[Nathan]

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Hulk gets a nosebleed from dozens of Chitauri firing at him with their puny weapons. Thor kills 1 or 2 Leviathans with his lightning, while Iron Man couldn't cut through their armor with his ridiculous laser from Iron Man 2. Do the math.

 

[Incredible Hans]

Iron Man hardly took any damage because the Arc Reactor absorbed it. That's not very relevant to what I've said though.

Right. Iron Man can absorb electrical energy. Hulk can't.

 

[Incredible Hans]

Deleted.

 

[Incredible Hans]

@ Goliath:

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Thor wouldn't use his heavy lightning attacks while he is on the Helicarrier.

He doesn't want to destroy the Helicarrier while Hulk doesn't care.

 

[Fifthchild]

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One significant reason why people talk about that Thor tried to calm him down is that Thor never uses any of his big attacks that he does both before and after the Hulk fight in the film.

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Sure but that's not quite the same thing as trying to calm someone down. I'm pretty sure that even in Asgard people don't relax by smacking themselves in the face with hammers

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I think it's quite reasonable to see it as Thor isn't giving his all, while Hulk is since he's in uncontrolled rage. Even disregarding that Thor shows more power before and after it's quite unlikely that he would go from trying to calm Hulk down to trying to kill him.

Spoiler

I don't think that really makes much sense actually. Just because you aren't trying to kill someone doesn't mean you aren't giving your all. In any given boxing match most fighters aren't literally trying to kill each other but that doesn't mean they are holding back either.

I agree it would be interesting to see Thor vs Hulk with lightning but I doubt that Thor was willing to cut loose more against what looked like a normal guy with a funny looking shield than against a giant green monster that was throwing him around and apparently trying to kill someone.

 

[Goliath]

Mjölnir

Spoiler

Hulk wasn't shown as invulnerable though. He was knocked out by the fall to the ground.

The difference between Hulk and Thor in this case is that if Thor had dropped from that altitude I am willing to wager that he would have been crushed from that height. As in dead. Best case scenario he survives with every bone in his body crushed. While he was trapped in that container and was dropping towards the earth at a rapid pace I was given the impression that had he not escaped that he would not have survived. But, if Thor was invulnerable he could have just absorbed the impact, you know, peace of cake. That's not how I saw that situation. It seemed as if he was in serious danger.

No way in hell is Loki (or Thor) surviving a fall thousands of feet in the air, without at least sustaining massive injury. As tough as these Asguardians are, I don't think they could walk away from that.

 

[Incredible Hans]

Mjölnir

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The difference between Hulk and Thor in this case is that if Thor had dropped from that altitude I am willing to wager that he would have been crushed from that height. As in dead. Best case scenario he survives with every bone in his body crushed. While he was trapped in that container and was dropping towards the earth at a rapid pace I was given the impression that had he not escaped that he would not have survived. But, if Thor was invulnerable he could have just absorbed the impact, you know, peace of cake. That's not how I saw that situation. It seemed as if he was in serious danger.

No way in hell is Loki (or Thor) surviving a fall thousands of feet in the air, without at least sustaining massive injury.

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The funny thing is that this cage/death trap was originally built for the Hulk!

So the SHIELD people assumed that such a fall would kill him.

 

[Mjölnir]

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Sure but that's not quite the same thing as trying to calm someone down. I'm pretty sure that even in Asgard people don't relax by smacking themselves in the face with hammers

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No, but the point is that since he tried to calm him down we see that Thor doesn't want to hurt Hulk/Banner, which brings context to the fight.

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I don't think that really makes much sense actually. Just because you aren't trying to kill someone doesn't mean you aren't giving your all. In any given boxing match most fighters aren't literally trying to kill each other but that doesn't mean they are holding back either.

I agree it would be interesting to see Thor vs Hulk with lightning but I doubt that Thor was willing to cut loose more against what looked like a normal guy with a funny looking shield than against a giant green monster that was throwing him around and apparently trying to kill someone.

Spoiler

A boxer, wearing boxing gloves, is so unlikely to kill another, healthy boxer by punching him that you can say that it's almost impossible. Thor, on the other hand, can turn normal people into goo.

I don't really know why Thor was so angry at Cap (as he did sound very angry, and the likeliest reason is that he thought them enemies that hindered his mission) but the effects of how he came across and of what he did were quite different than in the Hulk fight. He never hit Hulk so hard everything around them blew away. So regardless of how likely someone thinks it is that he wouldn't attack Hulk in full force, the results of his actions just don't support that he did.

 

[Goliath]

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The funny thing is that this cage/death trap war originally built for the Hulk!

So the SHIELD people assumed that such a fall would kill him.

How do you know that Shield assumed the drop would kill him? All we know is that the cage is supposed to contain him.

 

[StanLee Wannabe]

This whole "trying to calm Hulk down" business doesn't make sense. Stopping the Hulk with brute force is different than calming him down.

 

[Incredible Hans]

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So the SHIELD people assumed that such a fall would kill him.

How do you know that Shield assumed the drop would kill him? All we know is that it's supposed to contain him.

Then you didn't understand how that cage worked.

 

[StanLee Wannabe]

He's asking for some sort of proof of your claim, Hans. What video or extrinsic evidence do you have?

 

[Goliath]

Mjolnir

Spoiler

He never hit Hulk so hard everything around them blew away. So regardless of how likely someone thinks it is that he wouldn't attack Hulk in full force, the results of his actions just don't support that he did.

I assume you're referring to when Thor hit Captain America and they both went flying? I could be wrong, but I don't think Thor hit Captain America any harder than he hit IM. The shock wave that resulted was related to the properties of the shield.

 

[Incredible Hans]

The idea of that cage is...

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that you can drop it any time you want. Just let if fall to the ground in case the prisoner tries to escape, killing him easily.

Nick Fury explains that to Loki. And since the cage was originally built for the Hulk, it means that they had in mind killing the Hulk that way if he tried to escape.

 

[Mjölnir]

Mjölnir

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The difference between Hulk and Thor in this case is that if Thor had dropped from that altitude I am willing to wager that he would have been crushed from that height. As in dead. Best case scenario he survives with every bone in his body crushed. While he was trapped in that container and was dropping towards the earth at a rapid pace I was given the impression that had he not escaped that he would not have survived. But, if Thor was invulnerable he could have just absorbed the impact, you know, peace of cake. That's not how I saw that situation. It seemed as if he was in serious danger.

No way in hell is Loki (or Thor) surviving a fall thousands of feet in the air, without at least sustaining massive injury. As tough as these Asguardians are, I don't think they could walk away from that.

Spoiler

It's possible. It's very hard to tell the exact effect but seeing how the trap was designed to kill Hulk it's safe to assume that he'd be quite injured.

The tricky part is that movies like this, or comics for that matter, really take a scientific stance on this. Both Thor and Hulk throw each other through what appears to be metal walls. That indicates that they are using more force than what terminal velocity brings. But I don't think it's healthy to start thinking in those terms. Superhero stories just has a different set of physics, which is definitely needed.

 

[Incredible Hans]

Mjolnir

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I could be wrong, but I don't think Thor hit Captain America any harder than he hit IM. I think the aftereffect was related to the properties of the CA's shield. The hammer hitting the shield created a shockwave of sorts, sending them both flying. That's how I saw it.

Caps shield:

Spoiler

In the Captain America movie, it is explained that the shield absorbs energy. However, in the Avengers movie, the shield didn't absorb energy, it reflected it.
The only logical explanation is that the shield took more energy than it can hold. Thor's hit overloaded the shield's ability to absorb (kinetic) energy, and that's the reason why the shield gave the energy back.

That means that Thor's hit must've been awfully strong.

 

[Obi-Ron]

Way too much spoilerage on this page. It's gonna be a long week.

 

[Goliath]

Incredible Hans :

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Then you didn't understand how that cage worked.

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So dropping a giant container trapping the Hulk inside was supposed to ... kill him? I see. Now please point me to the evidence that suggests that Shield assumed the fall would kill the Hulk. Thanks.

 

[Kirmit]

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I think they made it pretty clear from Thor's smile and then smacking Hulk in the face with Mjolnir that he'd given up on trying to calm Hulk

 

[Mjölnir]

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I think they made it pretty clear from Thor's smile and then smacking Hulk in the face with Mjolnir that he'd given up on trying to calm Hulk

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We've all agreed on that. We're just saying that since he tried to calm him down it doesn't seem very likely that he goes from that into "kill mode", which Hulk was in. Especially since the effects of what Thor did was never as large as in other fights before or after. Thor was definitely looking forward to a fight when he smiled, but the comics aren't exactly short of cases where Thor is fighting while holding back.