The Avengers The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 8

[Goliath]

Incredible Hans:

Spoiler

That means that Thor's hit must've been awfully strong.

All it tells us is that Thor hit CA's shield and there was a reaction to the force. That's it.

 

[Nathan]

Spoiler

I think they made it pretty clear from Thor's smile and then smacking Hulk in the face with Mjolnir that he'd given up on trying to calm Hulk

Spoiler

Wasn't giving it his all to put him down either. We know Thor is capable of much more. After calming down didn't work, he went for the next logical step, trying to knock him out. But he was still holding back because they were on the Helicarrier.

 

[Fifthchild]

Spoiler

No, but the point is that since he tried to calm him down we see that Thor doesn't want to hurt Hulk/Banner, which brings context to the fight.

Spoiler

I don't think that shows that he isn't trying to hurt Hulk the rest of the fight anymore than when the police say "Stop or we'll shoot" means they aren't trying to hurt you when you run and they shoot at you. He tried to calm him down and then he made no other attempt to calm him down. I don't think the plan after that was to only hit him hard enough to piss him off. If you can put him down, you put him down. Otherwise you are just making things worse.

Spoiler

A boxer, wearing boxing gloves, is so unlikely to kill another, healthy boxer by punching him that you can say that it's almost impossible. Thor, on the other hand, can turn normal people into goo.

Spoiler

I didn't get the impression that anyone there thought Hulk was a normal person though or that there was any danger Thor was going to turn him into goo. If Thor had much more to bring to the fight it would have been very welcome.

Spoiler

I don't really know why Thor was so angry at Cap (as he did sound very angry, and the likeliest reason is that he thought them enemies that hindered his mission) but the effects of how he came across and of what he did were quite different than in the Hulk fight. He never hit Hulk so hard everything around them blew away. So regardless of how likely someone thinks it is that he wouldn't attack Hulk in full force, the results of his actions just don't support that he did.

Spoiler

I thought it was pretty clear that the reason everything got blown away is because Caps shield reflected the blow into the environment. I'm quite certain at least that Thor wasn't expecting to end up lying on his ass looking much the worse for wear after hitting the shield like that.

 

[ComicForAWife]

Caps shield:

Spoiler

In the Captain America movie, it is explained that the shield absorbs energy. However, in the Avengers movie, the shield didn't absorb energy, it reflected it.
The only logical explanation is that the shield took more energy than it can hold. Thor's hit overloaded the shield's ability to absorb (kinetic) energy, and that's the reason why the shield gave the energy back.

That means that Thor's hit must've been awfully strong.

I was thinking this as well, but the shield doesn't absorb quite a few things:

Spoiler

Iron Mans repulsors when they go all Ultimate Alliance on the aliens, and even that shot in the train scene during Captain America, the shot bounces off the shield and hits the train wall destroying it. Besides I've watched the movie a few times now, Thor isn't holding back when he hits Hulk with Mjolnir, he's giving him a full haymaker, I just assume that they've kind of forgotten that Caps shield absorbs and doesn't reflect.

 

[Kirmit]

Spoiler

We've all agreed on that. We're just saying that since he tried to calm him down it doesn't seem very likely that he goes from that into "kill mode", which Hulk was in. Especially since the effects of what Thor did was never as large as in other fights before or after. Thor was definitely looking forward to a fight when he smiled, but the comics aren't exactly short of cases where Thor is fighting while holding back.

Spoiler

They were both in a contained environment, I don't believe either one let loose on each other. Had they been in an open environment Thor could've been using lightning and other weather attacks and Hulk could be ground stomping, using leaping attacks and whatever else. The location of the fight was the only thing holding both of them back, Thor did what he could where he could, no holding back, same with Hulk.

 

[Mjölnir]

Incredible Hans :



So dropping a giant container trapping the Hulk inside was supposed to ... kill him? I see. Now please point me to the evidence that suggests that Shield assumed the fall would kill the Hulk. Thanks.[/spoiler]

Spoiler

Since Fury is pretty ham handed in his insinuations what he expects it to do to Loki ("Ant - boot"), and that he says it was built for something a lot stronger than Loki (Hulk), it's quite safe to assume that they attempted it as a fail safe if Hulk couldn't be controlled.

It's not that strange that something the built to kill Hulk wouldn't manage to kill him since they can't know exactly how durable Hulk is. And since Hulk was knocked out by the fall he took, perhaps he wouldn't come back if they tried to execute the unconscious Banner right after the trap had hit the ground? We don't know, and again all intents aren't followed by the wanted results.

 

[Quasimod0]

Exactly, and the hulk is just a being of anger and rage. He doesnt really hold back. Thor is a conscious being and he just naturally holds back a bit. If he really lost all his cool like the hulk does, he'd take hulk out for sure

 

[Smashlilman]

Exactly, and the hulk is just a being of anger and rage. He doesnt really hold back. Thor is a conscious being and he just naturally holds back a bit. If he really lost all his cool like the hulk does, he'd take hulk out for sure

All ready happened although Hulk was Maestro. They still stalemated. But Thor got Battle field ejected.

 

[ComicForAWife]

Exactly, and the hulk is just a being of anger and rage. He doesnt really hold back. Thor is a conscious being and he just naturally holds back a bit. If he really lost all his cool like the hulk does, he'd take hulk out for sure

Everyone keeps saying that, but the fact remains that Hulk was gaining the upper hand, you'd think Thor might step it up a little so that he's winning. If you mean he's holding back with his physical strength, I disagree with you, if you mean he's not using all his powers, that's something else. Like I said in the post above.

Spoiler

Thor isn't holding back when he haymakers Hulk with Mjolnir

 

[Mjölnir]

Spoiler

I don't think that shows that he isn't trying to hurt Hulk the rest of the fight anymore than when the police say "Stop or we'll shoot" means they aren't trying to hurt you when you run and they shoot at you. He tried to calm him down and then he made no other attempt to calm him down. I don't think the plan after that was to only hit him hard enough to piss him off. If you can put him down, you put him down. Otherwise you are just making things worse.

Spoiler

I could have written that better as I didn't mean that he avoids hurting him at all but doesn't want to seriously hurt, or kill, him. It's backed up by him just not throwing the same big things as he did in other fights in the film, plus that it's a characteristic of Thor from the comics.

Spoiler

I didn't get the impression that anyone there thought Hulk was a normal person though or that there was any danger Thor was going to turn him into goo. If Thor had much more to bring to the fight it would have been very welcome.

Spoiler

Thor doesn't know how much Hulk can take. He had never seen him before. And another very undesirable effect of Thor going all out would be the collateral damage to the Helicarrier.

Spoiler

I don't think that shows that he isn't trying to hurt Hulk the rest of the fight anymore than when the police say "Stop or we'll shoot" means they aren't trying to hurt you when you run and they shoot at you. He tried to calm him down and then he made no other attempt to calm him down. I don't think the plan after that was to only hit him hard enough to piss him off. If you can put him down, you put him down. Otherwise you are just making things worse.

Spoiler

I could have written that better as I didn't mean that he avoids hurting him at all but doesn't want to seriously hurt, or kill, him. It's backed up by him just not throwing the same big things as he did in other fights in the film, plus that it's a characteristic of Thor from the comics.

Spoiler

I didn't get the impression that anyone there thought Hulk was a normal person though or that there was any danger Thor was going to turn him into goo. If Thor had much more to bring to the fight it would have been very welcome.

Spoiler

Thor doesn't know how much Hulk can take. He had never seen him before. And another very undesirable effect of Thor going all out would be the collateral damage to the Helicarrier.

Spoiler

I thought it was pretty clear that the reason everything got blown away is because Caps shield reflected the blow into the environment. I'm quite certain at least that Thor wasn't expecting to end up lying on his ass looking much the worse for wear after hitting the shield like that.

Yes, it's possible such a strike would just send the victim flying a long way if it's not reflected. Still, you never saw Thor make something like a jumping, two-handed strike in the Hulk fight, nor did he ever seem as angry, whatever that says.

 

[Quasimod0]

Everyone keeps saying that, but the fact remains that Hulk was gaining the upper hand, you'd think Thor might step it up a little so that he's winning. If you mean he's holding back with his physical strength, I disagree with you, if you mean he's not using all his powers, that's something else. Like I said in the post above.

Spoiler

Thor isn't holding back when he haymakers Hulk with Mjolnir

I mean he's holding back with his powers because he has more sense than hulk. Hulk is stronger than thor, no doubt.

 

[Mjölnir]

Spoiler

They were both in a contained environment, I don't believe either one let loose on each other. Had they been in an open environment Thor could've been using lightning and other weather attacks and Hulk could be ground stomping, using leaping attacks and whatever else. The location of the fight was the only thing holding both of them back, Thor did what he could where he could, no holding back, same with Hulk.

Spoiler

Hulk was definitely not holding back as he was in an uncontrolled rage, created by Loki. Had not Thor intervened then Hulk would have killed Black Widow, who was just cowering at that point. Not much humanity in Hulk at that point, only anger.

 

[Quasimod0]

BTW, I'm speaking on the movie characters. Not hulk and thor in the comics

 

[Mjölnir]

All ready happened although Hulk was Maestro. They still stalemated. But Thor got Battle field ejected.

Yes, but as always it comes down to who writes it. It goes both ways, with examples like Hulk even refusing to fight Thor if he has Mjolnir because Hulk just gets smacked around when Thor used it. I guess that's why these discussions will always be around and the fans of each character will naturally prefer the comics where their favorite is presented the best.

The visual artist in the above frame wasn't too good though.

 

[JAK®]

An official Marvel book told me that Thor can hold his own in a battle with the Hulk (even without Mjolnir) but that the Hulk's strength will overcome Thor eventually. Case closed.

 

[Goliath]

Mjolnir

Spoiler

Since Fury is pretty ham handed in his insinuations what he expects it to do to Loki ("Ant - boot"), and that he says it was built for something a lot stronger than Loki (Hulk), it's quite safe to assume that they attempted it as a fail safe if Hulk couldn't be controlled.

It's not that strange that something the built to kill Hulk wouldn't manage to kill him since they can't know exactly how durable Hulk is. And since Hulk was knocked out by the fall he took, perhaps he wouldn't come back if they tried to execute the unconscious Banner right after the trap had hit the ground? We don't know, and again all intents aren't followed by the wanted results

That's funny though. In Incredible Hulk he literally jumps out of a helicopter, thousands of feet in the air, drops like a stone and smashes into the pavement. I assume that movie had to have some tie-in to Avengers, especially if Fury was involved in some way, behind the scenes or whatever.

I never got the impression from Fury that the fall itself would have killed Hulk. All I got was that the container was designed to hold him. Anything else is supposition.

 

[ComicForAWife]

BTW, I'm speaking on the movie characters. Not hulk and thor in the comics

haha, yeah that's another discussion entirely

 

[Mjölnir]

Mjolnir

Spoiler

That's funny though. In Incredible Hulk he literally jumps out of a helicopter, thousands of feet in the air, drops like a stone and smashes into the pavement. I assume that movie had to have some tie-in to Avengers, especially if Fury was involved in some way, behind the scenes or whatever.

I never got the impression from Fury that the fall itself would have killed Hulk. All I got was that the container was designed to hold him. Anything else is supposition.

Spoiler

You have to follow the logical path though. Why would they send him crashing to the ground, by all likelihood breaking the cage in the process, if they just wanted him contained? That makes no sense. It's not likely that it's to get him out of the Helicarrier either because they certainly don't want to lose him and let him rampage free.

 

[Mjölnir]

An official Marvel book told me that Thor can hold his own in a battle with the Hulk (even without Mjolnir) but that the Hulk's strength will overcome Thor eventually. Case closed.

As it should be. With all the powers Thor has, and the mighty Mjolnir to boot, it would be dumb to have him best Hulk in pure strength. Hulk is, and should be, the strongest.

 

[Goliath]

The idea that Hulk would die from being dropped from a thousand feet is preposterous. As I said, in Incredible Hulk, Banner jumps out of a helicopter to the pavement below. He was just fine. Now one could argue that film has no relation to Avengers whatsoever. Then we can assume the discussion between Stark and General Ross at the end of that film had no tie-in to Avengers either.

The Shield didn't know about Hulks durability? That's crazy. They must have seen something. Again, preposterous to think that just dropping him out of the air would kill him.

 

[Nathan]

How high up was the Helicopter in TIH? Because in Avengers, the container drops from 30,000ft. As Hulk's strength level is unknown, they can't really know if it would kill him. Only hope.

 

[ComicForAWife]

The idea that Hulk would die from being dropped from a thousand feet is preposterous. As I said, in Incredible Hulk, Banner jumps out of a helicopter to the pavement below. He was just fine. Now one could argue that film has no relation to Avengers whatsoever. Then we can assume the discussion between Stark and General Ross at the end of that film had no tie-in to Avengers either.

The Shield didn't know about Hulks durability? That's crazy. They must have seen something. Again, preposterous to think that just dropping him out of the air would kill him.

In this case I get what they're saying, there's a huge difference between the height in TIH and in Avengers

 

[DyeLorean]

Spoiler

Everything is in spoiler tags, I wanted to do it too.

 

[StanLee Wannabe]

There's still been no definitive proof given...or really a hint with the preponderance of being true that shows that SHIELD's Hulk trap was meant (or could, arguably a different question) to be able to kill him.

 

[Mjölnir]

The idea that Hulk would die from being dropped from a thousand feet is preposterous. As I said, in Incredible Hulk, Banner jumps out of a helicopter to the pavement below. He was just fine. Now one could argue that film has no relation to Avengers whatsoever. Then we can assume the discussion between Stark and General Ross at the end of that film had no tie-in to Avengers either.

The Shield didn't know about Hulks durability? That's crazy. They must have seen something. Again, preposterous to think that just dropping him out of the air would kill him.

Spoiler

The same fall, with a slightly better landing, knocks Hulk out in the movie so clearly he can't fall that far and be just fine. That argument isn't working.