Spider-Man The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - - - - Part 13

[Nardz937]

Found some BTS photos for the first time in high-quality.

 

[Venom 1988]

Nice, like that they have a time stamp on them.

 

[Arachnerd]

Willem Dafoe having no drip challenge: impossible.

 

[Gothamsknight]

Found some BTS photos for the first time in high-quality. View attachment 69120
View attachment 69121
View attachment 69122
View attachment 69123

These photos should be preserved in a museum. History being made.

 

[Vader's Fist]

Hey, hey, someone made a typo. Shouldn't this say "Ultimate Spider-Man"? :wink:



Seriously though, Spider-Man 2 and The Dark Knight are, in my opinion, the undisputed cinematic GOAs from Marvel and DC respectively. Just two groundbreaking classics that deserve the lions share of the credit for launching the golden age of the superhero genre. No doubt about it, Raimi and Nolan were in a league of their own. It's telling how subsequent efforts to recapture that same magic have been few and far between with only the Russo Brothers, James Gunn and Ryan Coogler coming close.

 

[Herofan]

I loved the Peter meets Norman scene in the trailer, felt pretty weird that in the movie it happened so early on.

 

[Gothamsknight]

 

[zeptron]

I still think that Sony should have backed off and let Raimi do Spider-man 3 the way he initially wanted with Harry, Sandman and Vulture as the villains. Spider-man 2 had set up Harry to be the big bad. Not an alien symbiote that didn't have any foreshadowing. And then perhaps worked out something for a second trilogy. Even though it's been 16 years since Raimi directed a Spider-man movie and what's done is done, I've lately been thinking it could have been like this

Spider-man 4: Lizard and Kraven are the villains. Eddie Brock either gets briefly mentioned or makes a cameo.

Spider-man 5: Electro is the villain. Peter gets the black suit. Eddie Brock is properly introduced and his hatred for Spider-man develops. Peter gets rid of the black suit at the end and Eddie gets it.

Spider-man 6: The symbiote fanatics get their Spidey vs Venom film.

Also I think Topher Grace would have made a better Electro than Venom.

 

[Zantera]

For all its flaws I still like Spider-Man 3 and I think it gets more crap than it deserves. It could have been easily fixed with some changes. It's fun with the current hot debate around Spider-Man 2 (the game) and the Harry/Venom discussion, I think Spider-Man 3 honestly could have gone that route and was kinda set up for it. Sure they teased Harry going down the Goblin route in SM2 but we could have cut down 1 villain basically by removing Eddie Brock and having Harry become Venom instead. I know Raimi didn't want to do Venom period but if you remove Venom then you also have to remove the black suit and then you're really re-writing the whole script instead of doing some changes to it.

Even though it's not as consistent as the first two movies, I still enjoy it and it has some scenes that are on par with the best moments of the first two films. The birth of Sandman is a scene I feel is universally loved, and while the whole "rewriting so Flint Marko shot uncle Ben" is controversial, I actually think the final scene where Peter finds out what happens and forgives Sandman is really damn good, emotional and well executed. The music in the scene is also 5/5 and everything just works in that moment.

 

[Venom75]

I feel like this may be a controversial opinion,but when it comes to Venom I really prefer Topher Grace's version to Tom Hardy's. Tom's version has the size and he does refer to himself as "we," but he's too goofy and not very scary or intimidating. Neither is what I'd call the perfect representation of the character,but I like Topher a bit more. Again,if only he got the proper development he could've been a great villain.

 

[The Joker]

I've never been a fan of the Venom character in general. I always felt he was poorly written and pretty much a character who sailed on hollow gimmicks like his cool appearance and being an "evil Spider-Man". There's only been a couple of interpretations of him that I've enjoyed. One is Topher's and the other is in the latest PlayStation Spider-Man game.

 

[Zantera]

I feel like this may be a controversial opinion,but when it comes to Venom I really prefer Topher Grace's version to Tom Hardy's. Tom's version has the size and he does refer to himself as "we," but he's too goofy and not very scary or intimidating. Neither is what I'd call the perfect representation of the character,but I like Topher a bit more. Again,if only he got the proper development he could've been a great villain.

I agree with you 100%. While you could argue just physically Tom Hardy is closer to the Eddie Brock you would imagine, his version feels so different it doesn't even register as Venom to me. Say what you want about Topher but in terms of the writing they do hit the beats from the comics of who he is and why he feels hatred towards Peter.

Also one complaint with Spider-Man 3 is the lucky coincidence that the meteorite carrying the symbiote just happens to crash near Peter and its very convenient for the story that it happens that way. An easy fix IMO would have been to stick by how they did it in the animated series. They already introduced JJJ's son as the astronaut in Spider-Man 2. Could have had a short little action scene where a space shuttle with him is crashing, Peter is there because as Spider-Man he wants to save people and thats how he gets the symbiote. But yeah it would have cost money to shoot something like that, it would have added maybe 5 minutes and I know Raimi wasn't really big on Venom at all so I could see why they didn't do it. Still, would have been a small fix that would have improved it IMO.

On a smaller side note, there's a reference to a photographer called Eddie in the first Spider-Man (JJJ or Robertson has a line about how Eddie hasn't been able to take a picture of Spider-Man yet) and it felt weird they didn't continue with that in SM3 and just introduces Eddie Brock as a new character. Could have just altered it slightly to him already having a connection with the Bugle - maybe he was away working another job during SM2 and he comes back into the mix. Maybe would have made the Peter/Eddie rivalry a bit stronger if Peter felt he was one step behind Eddie because Eddie already had a connection with JJJ from before.

Just some random thoughts.

 

[Venom75]

I agree with you 100%. While you could argue just physically Tom Hardy is closer to the Eddie Brock you would imagine, his version feels so different it doesn't even register as Venom to me. Say what you want about Topher but in terms of the writing they do hit the beats from the comics of who he is and why he feels hatred towards Peter.

Also one complaint with Spider-Man 3 is the lucky coincidence that the meteorite carrying the symbiote just happens to crash near Peter and its very convenient for the story that it happens that way. An easy fix IMO would have been to stick by how they did it in the animated series. They already introduced JJJ's son as the astronaut in Spider-Man 2. Could have had a short little action scene where a space shuttle with him is crashing, Peter is there because as Spider-Man he wants to save people and thats how he gets the symbiote. But yeah it would have cost money to shoot something like that, it would have added maybe 5 minutes and I know Raimi wasn't really big on Venom at all so I could see why they didn't do it. Still, would have been a small fix that would have improved it IMO.

On a smaller side note, there's a reference to a photographer called Eddie in the first Spider-Man (JJJ or Robertson has a line about how Eddie hasn't been able to take a picture of Spider-Man yet) and it felt weird they didn't continue with that in SM3 and just introduces Eddie Brock as a new character. Could have just altered it slightly to him already having a connection with the Bugle - maybe he was away working another job during SM2 and he comes back into the mix. Maybe would have made the Peter/Eddie rivalry a bit stronger if Peter felt he was one step behind Eddie because Eddie already had a connection with JJJ from before.

Just some random thoughts.

I think a cool scene would've been that at the beginning of the film when Peter is giving his monologue he mentions that he was picked to study rocks or meteor fragments in Dr. Connors class,and that they may have discovered a new life form. Then late at night when he's leaving the lab,Harry attacks and the symbiote ends up attaching itself to Peter. Kinda like in the Spectacular Spider-man cartoon. And maybe during the attack Mary Jane was injured when she came to meet Peter. And then Peter could have this anger at Harry which the symbiote could amplify. At least that was my idea. lol

 

[Venom75]

I've never been a fan of the Venom character in general. I always felt he was poorly written and pretty much a character who sailed on hollow gimmicks like his cool appearance and being an "evil Spider-Man". There's only been a couple of interpretations of him that I've enjoyed. One is Topher's and the other is in the latest PlayStation Spider-Man game.

I get it,and I think you're right. They never did much with him early on,except bring him out to fight Spider-man when they needed to really sell some issues. I think his character has gotten better over the years. But I feel as if he really needs to do something to really impact Peter. Goblin killed Gwen,Doc Ock did some nasty things too...Venom needs that. Maybe he kills Mary Jane or something? I don't now. But I really liked his development in the Spectacular Spider-man cartoon.

 

[Venom 1988]

I get it,and I think you're right. They never did much with him early on,except bring him out to fight Spider-man when they needed to really sell some issues. I think his character has gotten better over the years. But I feel as if he really needs to do something to really impact Peter. Goblin killed Gwen,Doc Ock did some nasty things too...Venom needs that. Maybe he kills Mary Jane or something? I don't now. But I really liked his development in the Spectacular Spider-man cartoon.

I think the problem is that Venom in the comics has spent a majority of his career being an anti-hero or some cases flat out hero. As mentioned before, his short stint as a villain didn't really amount to much...he stalks Peter then get defeated...rinse and repeat. Like Joker always likes to say, he was a one trick pony. After doing that for a few years, they just regulated him to anti-hero because of his popularity (that's why they created Carnage, so they could have an "evil" Venom again). Marvel has attempted a few times to bring him back to villain status (Mackie reboot era/Jenkins Spec run/The Last Temptation of Eddie Brock), but ultimately it didn't last long enough for before Marvel tried shifting him back as a hero. We did have several years of Scorpion as a full fledge villain Venom but that was always going to be temporary. And even then, we still had Brock acting as a hero with the Anti-Venom identity.

For better or worse, Venom's immense popularity stunted his growth as a villain. This is why media adaptations do a much better job of adapting Venom. They don't have to worry long term what Venom is going to do. They just have to focus on telling 1 or 2 good Venom stories and that's it. And given all the recent development he's had in Cates and now Ewing's run, I don't even see how they can bring him back to being a villain.

 

[Zantera]

Venom being portrayed as a good guy (or anti-hero) rubs me the wrong way. The core idea of Venom was someone who hated Spider-Man/Peter Parker bonding with the symbiote which also hated him and I like the description of Venom basically being Spider-Man if he had no morals, no uncle Ben to guide him and basically using his powers for bad instead of good. I don't mind when he temporarily had a truce with Peter to take down Carnage but that's about it for me, at the end of the day he's still a threat and not some misunderstood good guy.

 

[Venom75]

I think the problem is that Venom in the comics has spent a majority of his career being an anti-hero or some cases flat out hero. As mentioned before, his short stint as a villain didn't really amount to much...he stalks Peter then get defeated...rinse and repeat. Like Joker always likes to say, he was a one trick pony. After doing that for a few years, they just regulated him to anti-hero because of his popularity (that's why they created Carnage, so they could have an "evil" Venom again). Marvel has attempted a few times to bring him back to villain status (Mackie reboot era/Jenkins Spec run/The Last Temptation of Eddie Brock), but ultimately it didn't last long enough for before Marvel tried shifting him back as a hero. We did have several years of Scorpion as a full fledge villain Venom but that was always going to be temporary. And even then, we still had Brock acting as a hero with the Anti-Venom identity.

For better or worse, Venom's immense popularity stunted his growth as a villain. This is why media adaptations do a much better job of adapting Venom. They don't have to worry long term what Venom is going to do. They just have to focus on telling 1 or 2 good Venom stories and that's it. And given all the recent development he's had in Cates and now Ewing's run, I don't even see how they can bring him back to being a villain.

I've always liked him best as a villain. I never got into the anti-hero stuff,and while the recent Venom movies are fun,I'm not a fan of how they made him this goofy hero. I've always loved McFarlene's Venom. His look,his attitude....utterly creepy. Granted I haven't read a comic in years. Last thing I read was the 5 part series called Venomrigins(I think that's what it was). But you nailed a lot of what was wrong with the character. And I wouldn't blame Venom himself,but the people writing him. However...despite it all,I love the character. Always have,and always will. And yes,I'm one of those people that only love Eddie/Brock Venom. If it's not Eddie,I'm not that interested,

 

[zeptron]

I get it,and I think you're right. They never did much with him early on,except bring him out to fight Spider-man when they needed to really sell some issues. I think his character has gotten better over the years. But I feel as if he really needs to do something to really impact Peter. Goblin killed Gwen,Doc Ock did some nasty things too...Venom needs that. Maybe he kills Mary Jane or something? I don't now. But I really liked his development in the Spectacular Spider-man cartoon.

What I liked in Spectacular Spider-man is that Venom actually used the info he had on Peter instead of just chasing him around and making vague threats without actually following up on them. Also the creators taking the story from the Ultimate comics by making Peter and Eddie friends made things more personal for Peter as when Eddie became Venom, his childhood friend was now one of his worst foes. Eddie's story kinda rivaled Two-Face's in Batman TAS. He was generally a good guy that did have morals, but he also had some mental issues that started to slip out as the first season went on.

 

[Gothamsknight]

I always liked Venom, but I get why others may find him uninteresting. Imo, Raimi added more depth to the character in S-M3 and i also really loved what Insomniac did with him in Spider-Man 2. Do i think he deserves the "greatest spidey villain ever" title? No, I think overall the Green Goblin holds that. But I think Venom should still be considered one of Spideys greatest foes overall, and I'd rank him 3rd behind Goblin and Doc Ock.

speaking of Spider-Man 3, I've been thinking about that film a lot lately. Having just completed (and platinumed Insomniacs Spider-Man 2), it's been on my mind a lot and also with me turning 30 in just under 2 weeks, I've been reflecting on how long it's been since that film released. It's crazy to think it's been 16 years since Spider-Man 3 released, and I remember being so excited about it. Whenever i see pics of the promotions for the film, or even the toys, it just makes me realize i'm getting older now haha.

 

[Herofan]

I still think that Sony should have backed off and let Raimi do Spider-man 3 the way he initially wanted with Harry, Sandman and Vulture as the villains. Spider-man 2 had set up Harry to be the big bad. Not an alien symbiote that didn't have any foreshadowing.

I read that Raimi wanted Harry in a villainous/antagonistic role but not a suited villain, not suit up as Goblin, Arad pushed for him becoming a Goblin.

For better or worse, Venom's immense popularity stunted his growth as a villain. This is why media adaptations do a much better job of adapting Venom. They don't have to worry long term what Venom is going to do. They just have to focus on telling 1 or 2 good Venom stories and that's it.

I loved the way TAS had him as a quite understandable, in some ways likeable bad guy but still bad and then later managed to grow his better qualities to give him a noble end. I also enjoy when the symbiote itself and its resentment at rejection is portrayed as with some sympathy.

 

[BobJM]

I read that Raimi wanted Harry in a villainous/antagonistic role but not a suited villain, not suit up as Goblin, Arad pushed for him becoming a Goblin.

Would have made so much more sense if Harry was behind Flint Marko getting his Sandman powers. You could have skipped the whole amnesia plot.

At the end, MJ goes to Harry to convince him to help end what he started--maybe Harry/OsCorp has some sort of sonic device to disrupt Sandman that could be helpful in putting down Venom... Harry would still be killed in the end, but reconcile with Peter & MJ before his death.

 

[Venom75]

I really loved the idea of MJ going to Harry to ask him to help Peter. I'm not exactly sure why they changed that to just having MJ getting kidnapped again.

 

[Arachnerd]

I still wonder what the movie would have been like if they let Raimi use Vulture like he intended to.

 

[zeptron]

I still wonder what the movie would have been like if they let Raimi use Vulture like he intended to.

Well apparently Sandman and Vulture would have been connected right from the start as they would had been former cellmates and would be sharing scenes together. Vulture would also had been manipulating Sandman into committing crimes. Which would have made the latter's villainous actions make more sense. One of the issues with Spider-man 3 is that it made Sandman out to be not such a bad guy, but not only does he attack civilians and policemen, he also goes along with a plot to kidnap an innocent woman so that he could kill Spider-man.

We also probably would have gotten an epic air battle between Harry and Vulture.

 

[Venom 1988]

I've always liked him best as a villain. I never got into the anti-hero stuff,and while the recent Venom movies are fun,I'm not a fan of how they made him this goofy hero. I've always loved McFarlene's Venom. His look,his attitude....utterly creepy. Granted I haven't read a comic in years. Last thing I read was the 5 part series called Venomrigins(I think that's what it was). But you nailed a lot of what was wrong with the character. And I wouldn't blame Venom himself,but the people writing him. However...despite it all,I love the character. Always have,and always will. And yes,I'm one of those people that only love Eddie/Brock Venom. If it's not Eddie,I'm not that interested,

Totally understandable. Having said that, I would encourage you at the very least to read Rick Ramender's Agent Venom run and Donny's Cates Venom run. For the former, I know you said you're not interested in a non Eddie Brock Venom but it's a pretty good read. And for the latter, honestly the best Venom run ever imo. And Cates actually writes Brock with more depth than he's ever been.