The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Part 9

Discussion in 'Spider-Man 1, 2 & 3' started by Thread Manager, Jul 1, 2013.

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  1. Kargo Warrior

    Kargo Warrior Scientist

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    After several years i decided to watch the first two Spider-Man films,to see how i felt about them now,how i see them from my current perspective and point of view.

    And boy,i love these movies with all my heart...they are so innocent,witty,so well edited and scripted i always end the second film with a huge smile on my face,which lasts about 30 seconds only to start my bewilderment of how they messed the third film so badly.I really like the first one despite a flaw here and a flaw there but I will spend some thoughts on the sequel.

    Spider-Man 2 is the perfect sequel.It does all three major things that a sequel should marvelously:

    1)It seamlessly continues the story
    2)It expands it's world but most importantly,it expands it's characters,their ambitions,issues,desires...
    3)It ends the story with just enough happiness and unresolved tension to work on it's own but leaves place for a spectacular finale(which,alas,didn't happen.)

    In the first film,Spider-Man received a gift which turned into a burden,a responsibility he thought he understood and accepted.What the sequel smartly builds on and simultaneously questions along the way is whether a normal life is possible for someone who risks his life every day,someone who's a firefighter,a cop,a super soldier,a role model all at once.Would any individual accept such a life?Is there an amount of good deeds that are enough or is that responsibility for the rest of his life?Can there be a balance between personal happiness and the greater good?If seem from a neutral utilitarian perspective,would someone with such powers be seen as selfish if he would prefer to have a sweetheart,kids,a peaceful life?

    The psychological torment Peter is having is juggled around wonderfully between his continuous sacrifice and his inability to be there for the love of his life,to have classes,to be what one would consider a normal young person.His guilt about his powers and what happened to his uncle have a quiet catharsis when he confesses his role to his Aunt.No act in either films is more brave and honest,creating Peter as someone not only with physical courage but moral one as well.

    One of the best aspects of the script,is the care put into all the supporting characters that create this world.M.J is living her dream,lighting up Broadway,getting posters all over town but she's not very happy because fame and fortune are nothing without someone to share them with and the only person who has cared for her all along the way,mysteriously avoids her,sending mixed messages every time they see each other.She's presented as someone who doesn't let emotions ruin her life but follows her heart when it's the thing required.Her decision at the end of the film,brings the story into full circle from Peter chasing the bus,to her chasing him and making her decision be just as important as his,a love between two equals who are always gentle and tender to each other.

    Aunt May is longing for her husband,all alone in the world but her fortitude is shown every step of the way,never putting her head down because of monetary issues,forgiving Peter and always being there when he needs an advice or a simple shoulder to rely on.

    Harry has an interesting arc,convinced his father was killed by Spider-Man,he spends his life between continuing his father's legacy figuratively and literally.Once his sponsorship fails,killing Spider-Man is all he has left but who that is,is what makes him a tragic figure.His only friend,his only family...is the person that ruined his life.Revenge is on the cards.

    Finally Doc Ock,who is a considerable improvement over the Goblin,a person who parallels Peter in following,chasing his dreams,but unlike him,someone who lets them devour everything he cared and worked for.A prideful person that could have changed the world had he been more patient and honest to a deluded criminal,he gets a honorable farewell at the end,sacrificing himself for those he worked for his entire life,those he hoped ton help better their lives,the common people.

    The humor in the film is abundant,with J.J.Jameson on the front line equipped with a dozen sarcastic lines ready for delivery.''Caviar? Who are we inviting, the czar?'' is one the many laugh out loud moments,that are always natural,in the spirit of the situation and not as mere comic relief and unnecessary banter.The homage to comic book fans was also subtly added to the story from the Dr. Strange reference,to Mr Ditkovich to Peter's comic books thrown in the garbage can...''those dreadful things'' as Aunt May called them.

    The action sequences are amazing,the train fight,endlessly emulated but never improved remains the best action scene of any comic book film,showing computer wizardry when used well can only add to a great story,not make a great story.Saving the train in spectacular fashion,the reaction of the passengers is one of the most impactfull scenes and touches the essence of Spider-Man...he is just a kid with a tremendous powers which he uses to help everyday people without any price or benefit but simply because he is following the example his Aunt and Uncle left him.

    Even though it's a sequel,it doesn't feel big,it's very intimate,very poignant,we're spending time with genuine characters not action heroes produced in a computer.It's a film made with great care about them,never sidestepping their lives for needless thrills or explosions.Most of the firework comes from the interaction and the deep emotions between the characters,their words and their choices rather than CGI theatrics.
     
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  2. S. Grundy

    S. Grundy Well-Known Member

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    I really would have loved to have seen an extended cut, all of the deleted scene photos I've seen seem to indicate they would have helped the movie feel more whole.
     
    #27
  3. A Necessary Evil

    A Necessary Evil One. Bad. Day.

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    I saw SM3 on fx a couple weeks ago, I still enjoy it. I do agree, that extended cut really would have helped (this massively flawed, however enjoyable movie), and they could have at least put them on the new blurays....buuuuuuut they didn't. Meh.
     
    #28
  4. S. Grundy

    S. Grundy Well-Known Member

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    Rebooting the series to get rid of Raimi killed any chance of it happening.
     
    #29
  5. Doc Ock

    Doc Ock The Spider-Totem Awakens

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    I will always be optimistic maybe someday it will see the light of day...just maybe.
     
    #30
  6. Kargo Warrior

    Kargo Warrior Scientist

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    For every good story decision that was made in Spider-Man 2 and it had plenty,Spider-Man 3 had as many that went terribly wrong.

    First of all,the Uncle Ben retcon is such a ridiculous,unnecessary move,everyone,from the person who wrote it to Raimi should be ashamed of themselves.It basically undermined all the responsibility Peter had on his shoulders for the duration of the first two films.

    Another terrible writing decision was bringing Gwen Stacy,making the completely needless love triangle and denying M.J and Peter a happy relationship.After all the trials and tribulations of the previous films,all the pain,loneliness,alienation,they overcame every obstacle,finally came together only to have nothing but selfishness and bickering in the third film.A complete opposite of the tenderness and care they showed each other previously.

    Peter being a dork,weakling in high school was part of the core in the origin but him being laughed at,ridiculed,etc...AGAIN in college showed a complete regression from part two.

    Having 3 villains.There were fantastical elements in the first two films but everything was relatively explainable,plausible...an unexplained entity that just happens to fall from the sky in the vicinity of Peter was not.On top of that,the acting choice was horrendous.

    Sandman was good on paper and pictures but again,making him U.B's killer was a poor,poor,unimaginative way to connect him to Peter.Why does every single character need to have a private history with Peter?Why not having a villain that just has to stopped due to his selfish,destructive actions?This way it all looks like Peter is fighting for himself,fighting his quarrels,not fighting to help innocent people.

    The tone of the film didn't match the storyline at all.It retained the tone of the first two films and yet what was presented on screen was a juxtaposition between the supposed darkness and the goofiness of the characters,especially Peter.Just a year later,Nolan took a darker storyline and gave it the proper treatment.Even with all it's flaws a different direction could have made the film a lot more palpable if not much better.

    It's a shame how much potential this movie had and how much good will the previous two films had,you have Peter finally becoming and accepting being Spider-Man,finally together with M.J.Franco's arc reached the breaking point...the sky was the limit...it's just sad that the very poor reception of the film made the whole trilogy uncool.
     
    #31
  7. The Joker

    The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Great posts, Kargo :up:
     
    #32
  8. Green Goblin

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    So... Spidey 3 needs more love? Did anyone find Peter wanting to marry MJ after 6 months odd? I mean I'm not married but 6 months is a bit fast to purpose...
     
    #33
  9. Kargo Warrior

    Kargo Warrior Scientist

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    Thanks,bud :yay:

    Not more love,a lot less needless melodrama.

    The idea of presenting and overcoming any setbacks,challenges,obstacles in a dramatic medium is to further a character,to make him grow,evolve,learn...their relationship was at a worse place at the end of part 3 than part 2.They spend 2 films building it and then did a unbelievable regression,as the only way to insert Gwen who didn't serve any other real purpose in the film.

    And he didn't want to marry her after 6 months,he was in love with her since the fourth grade.They basically knew each other all their lives.It's not like he met her 6 months before proposing.
     
    #34
  10. Green Goblin

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    But they weren't dating untill then... That's my morals anyway lol
     
    #35
  11. Senator Pleasury

    Senator Pleasury Well-Known Member

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    Dude, the man fell in love with her at 6 and stayed like that forever and first thought she was an angel. You are like that, chances are you're going to stay a dope forever.
     
    #36
  12. sontin

    sontin Well-Known Member

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    It was the same in ASM.
    It was not odd. He thought it was the right time. In the end it was the wrong decision.
     
    #37
  13. Green Goblin

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    Wonder when a Spidey film will top SM2?
     
    #38
  14. Green Goblin

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    The Burton film threads are more active than this one...
     
    #39
  15. OcStat

    OcStat Well-Known Member

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    They didn't reboot the series to get rid of Raimi, Raimi stood down.

    Edit:
    http://spinoff.comicbookresources.com/2013/03/06/sam-raimi-explains-why-spider-man-4-didnt-happen/

    So maybe it was a bit of both, he says the reboot idea was bouncing around but ultimately, if he didn't resign it would not have happened.

    But if he didn't resign, we would've gotten a sub-par movie.

    It's unfortunate because I was looking forward to SM4. But there it is, straight from the source, it wouldn't have turned out the way he, or we, were hoping.

    ASM came very very close, I have a strong feeling ASM2 will knock SM2 off the throne.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 11, 2013
  16. Green Goblin

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    If TASM has a tied audience RT with SM2 then I can see the GA liking it more, but critically and on this site, NOPE. I don't think we have the Spider-Man film yet as each has atleast one notable flaw in my opinion.
    SM1: GG's looks and his plan .
    SM2: First half Peter is a push over and MJ is a choir to watch.
    SM3: I'd be here all day.
    TASM: Not showing Conner's family and Dr Ratha's subplot not being 100% tied up.
    Here's hoping TASM2 is the The Dark Knight of the Spider-Man franchise.
     
    #41
  17. sontin

    sontin Well-Known Member

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    Lol, TASM is even worse than SM3.
     
    #42
  18. Green Goblin

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    [​IMG]

    Sure sure. Batman Begins is worse than B&R also.
     
    #43
  19. OcStat

    OcStat Well-Known Member

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    I agree, we have yet to have the Spider-Man film.

    Green Goblins look never bothered me that much. Definitely never saw the Power Rangers comparison as a valid complaint. The mask was odd though, really kind of distracting on that roof top scene.

    Couldn't care less about Ratha, so that doesn't bother me either. I am glad they didn't keep the deleted scene in the sewer where he rambles on and on about Peter's past. That would not have helped the movie.

    (But the scene before hand with Peter and the Curt getting to talk before he loses control should have been in. Just take out Ratha's bit and get back to Spider-Man and Lizard headed to Oscorp.)

    Not showing Conners family was a big mistake to me. It doesn't help that they took Dr. Connors family man, well intentioned scientist persona and gave it Doc Ock in Spider-Man 2. It made telling Curt's story a little tougher because it was another thing that could have been perceived as a "retread" of the old films, when really Dr. Octopus was changed quite a bit for Spider-Man 2.

    That knowledge doesn't detract from SM2 for me, Ock was still a great villain in that film. But hopefully if we ever get to see Ock in this franchise it will be done right. He is not a sympathetic individual.

    That's quite a statement, Bub. Care to back it up?
     
    #44
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2013
  20. Green Goblin

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    Other than Ultimate Spidey, SM3 is the only media adaption of the character I didn't like. I thought it wasn't far from being the cinematic equivalent of toilet paper when looking at the source material.

    It felt like a werid movie with Tobey Maguire in it.
     
    #45
  21. Green Goblin

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    Like the Lizard in TASM, I felt the changes made sense in the context of the film. The whole "Sometimes you have to give up the things you want the most" only made sense with their version of Ock.
     
    #46
  22. Human Torch

    Human Torch Well-Known Member

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    We ended up getting one anyway.:woot:
     
    #47
  23. Green Goblin

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    And all of a sudden SM3 gets fans...
     
    #48
  24. Green Goblin

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    Ladies there is a forum for discussing TASM v.s the entire Trilogy (or SM1, I can't remember)
     
    #49
  25. sontin

    sontin Well-Known Member

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    Sure, no problem:
    Worst custome ever
    Boring from the start to the end
    Worst adaption from the comics - it's not ASM, it's not USM
    Uncle Ben's death is stupid and has no impact
    To many plot holes
    Relationship between Peter and Gwen is to artificial
    Connors is not Connors and the look of the Lizard is so ridiculous
    Lizard-Mouse (lol)
    ...

    And so on.

    And no i dont care what other people say. After The Dark Knight i gave up searching for logic when it comes to movie perception.
     
    #50
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