The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Part 9

[A Necessary Evil]

"In fact a moron."

Can you at least justify that claim?

Sure.

He has no idea what he's talking about over half the time, goes back on his word alot (I remember him talking up AngHulk alot in 03 about how much he loved it and blahblahblah, the second it comes out he hates it, yeah ok LOL), screwed up Spider-Man 3, butchered DareDevil, and my personal favorite:

"Batman came and went. It's Spider-Man's turn now." Three years later, The Dark Knight shatters (at the time) every single Marvel movie's opening day and box office record period.


Unfortunately, I cannot find the article, as the site is down now, but I know for a fact I saw that ish on youtube in mid-2005 or so.

 

[Green Goblin]

Sure.

He has no idea what he's talking about over half the time, goes back on his word alot (I remember him talking up AngHulk alot in 03 about how much he loved it and blahblahblah, the second it comes out he hates it, yeah ok LOL), screwed up Spider-Man 3, butchered DareDevil, and my personal favorite:

"Batman came and went. It's Spider-Man's turn now." Three years later, The Dark Knight shatters (at the time) every single Marvel movie's opening day and box office record period.


Unfortunately, I cannot find the article, as the site is down now, but I know for a fact I saw that ish on youtube in mid-2005 or so.

Well said though I think I have one that beats it
"Spider-Man is the biggest character in the world, he doesn't need a cameo!"

The guy is stuck in 2007 lol, he forgot that the Spidey movie franchise is No.2 with Batman being number 1.

 

[Green Goblin]

Yes well I have a feeling that Avi Arad would not have agreed to put in Mysterio.

He seems to insist he is too expensive for a film. I do not hate him just dont like him or his ideas.

He seems to be trying to do with Webb what he did with Raimi and adding characters that were decided by him and Sony along time ago.

I mean was it not him that wanted to add Vulturess in SM4? Vulture okay with that but Vulturess? Need I say more.

Well with the Bruce Campbell scene in SM2 were he says "it helps maintain the illusion" that sure did make a few fanboys/gals out there think Mysterio was gonna be next. Or he was him. Did he voice Beck in Spider Man 2 game?

t:

Ah, a fellow Mysterio fan! He's my 3rd favourite after GG and Doc Ock!

I would have liked to have scene him in SM4 too! If Gwen dies in TASM3 then Mysterio could pose an excellent psychological threat in TASM4!

Here's hoping...

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Well said though I think I have one that beats it
"Spider-Man is the biggest character in the world, he doesn't need a cameo!"

The guy is stuck in 2007 lol, he forgot that the Spidey movie franchise is No.2 with Batman being number 1.

lol he's not good at his job at all

 

[Picard Sisko]

Avi is a businessman, and a damn good one at that, and he is the one who pushed for Marvel films to get made long ago. Avi says things here and there that make me roll my eyes, but he isn't responsible for Spider-Man 3 failing. Producers force filmmakers to add things to their movies all the time, so it was Sam Raimi's job to make a good movie even if Venom was in it. And naturally he is going to say, "Spider-Man is the best character in the world" because that's the character he is trying to sell. A businessman isn't going to say, "well Spider-Man is a good character I guess, just try and see these movies if you can."

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Avi, like Raimi and Sony, is to blame, although I blame Avi more. I remember him saying something akin to "you owe the fans Venom, Sam." I'll admit, everything good, he's been involved in. But then again, everything that really sucked, he's been involved in. Saying petty crap like "Batman had his chance, and he failed" (which is basically what he said, fo realz) isn't being a buisnessman. It'd be the same if Nolan came out and said "lol my movies made more money than spider-man. He failed." Also, don't go back on your word. I understand having to promote something, and I understand admitting a failure, which isn't what he does.

"Oh yeah it'll be great"

*fans don't like it*

"Oh yeah, that sucked."

I like feige's way more, where he admits that it wasn't good, but doesn't crap all over the fans of it. Take, for example, AngHulk vs. TIH.

Kevin Feige said it that he respected what Ang did on TIH's features, admitted he wasn't too pleased, acknowledged that there are fans of it, and argued that arguing his film was like a parallel universe one-shot comic book, and their next film needed to be, in Kevin Feige's words, "really starting the Marvel Hulk franchise."

 

[Picard Sisko]

Well the fans did want Venom, so it was Sam's job to give it to us and do it right. Like I said, Avi says a few things that make me scratch my head, but people like to blame him for too much.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Lol you act like just because you want something means its owed to you. I wanted to see Mr. Freeze and Riddler in a Nolan batflick, so that means it was his job to give it to me, and not tell the story that he wanted to tell, right?

It would be like if Nolan didn't understand Penguin, and then Goyer said "people want the Penguin. You owe it to them." So then he does, and it's all screwed up* for the fans. Would you have rather waited to see someone who understands the character, or at least likes it? Or, rather would you have we got.

*= I think Venom was better in SM3 than he ever was as a comic book character, which isn't saying much lol.

 

[Picard Sisko]

Wow. Just wow. The studio pays the bills, so they are looking to do whatever they can to make the most profit. Its the filmmaker's job to take that investment and turn it into a piece of art, something that people are actually enjoying. Sam hated the character and instead of trying to do some research or taking the film seriously, he just slacked off and gave us crap. Also note that this is the first film that Sam Raimi was given writing credits.

When you find yourself doing filmmaking, you often find yourself coming across film projects that you aren't exactly passionate about. But it is still YOUR job to make a good movie. If he really didn't like the symbiote story, he could have tried to make it more interesting then, but instead we got emo Peter dancing in the street.

I'm more than certain that when Avi wanted Sam to use Venom, he didn't mean for anything like that to happen. That's all Raimi.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Oh, I know how sony works. Don't think I don't. That's the same way TASM2 will turn out I'm betting.

Oh, and Sam did research Venom, and guess what? He couldn't understand the appeal of him, outside of "looking cool." ( :up to you sam!), because Venom does indeed suck. Mind telling me what makes him such a rich character that Raimi failed to miss?

Raimi did indeed write it, but Arad also let it happen

 

[Green Goblin]

Oh, I know how sony works. Don't think I don't. That's the same way TASM2 will turn out I'm betting.

I sure hope not, though they said they learned from SM3 so we'll just have to wait and see.

Oh, and Sam did research Venom, and guess what? He couldn't understand the appeal of him, outside of "looking cool." ( :up to you sam!), because Venom does indeed suck. Mind telling me what makes him such a rich character that Raimi failed to miss?

Venom is pretty good IMO and I think most here would agree. In fairness Raimi did get some right. They got his motivations right but again because his arc was rushed they couldn't flesh out some things like his inner struggles. He also doesn't have a wife in SM3 plus they didn't show him having cancer neither his wife leaving him. I think if those two things are key in making his hatred of Spider-Man more believable plus it adds depth to the character. Outside of Eddie Venom does indeed look cool but it's also his power sets. He can do things Spider-Man can and more. He also looks like a monstrous, sinister version of Spider-Man which Raimi got right though I personally wanted him larger like this,

Hopefully he looks like this in the reboot franchise!

In short, I think Venom looked decent in SM3 but everything else was mediocre at best including Eddie Brock (Not a slag against Grace it's just be was miscast for the role). Raimi missed out on the parts that does make him great like the humanity and dealing with the inner darkness (explored it in Peters part but he just danced lol). Also his Ultimate counter part is good too, the story of Richard Parker and Eddie Brock Senior made it an interesting new take .

 

[Picard Sisko]

Oh, I know how sony works. Don't think I don't. That's the same way TASM2 will turn out I'm betting.

That's nice. You must really know a lot.

Oh, and Sam did research Venom, and guess what? He couldn't understand the appeal of him, outside of "looking cool." ( :up to you sam!), because Venom does indeed suck. Mind telling me what makes him such a rich character that Raimi failed to miss?

Don't say it like its a fact. Venom is a very beloved character, and for a good reason, too. Its a lot more than just "looking cool."

Raimi did indeed write it, but Arad also let it happen

Come on, seriously? That's such a cheap argument. It was Sam's job to make it work, and he didn't. End of story.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

That's nice. You must really know a lot.

Thanks, I do know alot, considering I'm a film major and have a friend who works in the business, along with potentially being an extra in the near future.

Don't say it like its a fact. Venom is a very beloved character, and for a good reason, too. Its a lot more than just "looking cool."

Then please, educate me on what makes Venom such a rich character, Picard. Please do.

Come on, seriously? That's such a cheap argument. It was Sam's job to make it work, and he didn't. End of story.

lol in order to make Venom work on screen, you need to change him up alot. Which Raimi did.

In short, I think Venom looked decent in SM3 but everything else was mediocre at best including Eddie Brock (Not a slag against Grace it's just be was miscast for the role). Raimi missed out on the parts that does make him great like the humanity and dealing with the inner darkness (explored it in Peters part but he just danced lol). Also his Ultimate counter part is good too, the story of Richard Parker and Eddie Brock Senior made it an interesting new take .

I think Grace did fine with what he was given- not his fault they gave him about 14 minutes of screentime. I think he was a fine EBJ, who was skinny in the comics too, lol. What humanity does he have? Do you mean his own twisted sense of morale? I'm not getting into the SM3 debate, because (7 years later) I just don't care to debate about it anymore lol. I like it, others don't, oh well.

 

[Picard Sisko]

I see no purpose in trying to convince YOU why Venom is a great character. Sam's changes to the character in the film only made it worse.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

lol so basically, you have no argument.

 

[The Joker]

I see no purpose in trying to convince YOU why Venom is a great character. Sam's changes to the character in the film only made it worse.

How can giving Peter and Eddie an actual connection, and Eddie a valid reason to hate Peter make Venom worse?

 

[Green Goblin]

I think he was a fine EBJ, who was skinny in the comics too, lol.

In the Ultimate comics because he's a teenager. They based it on 616 who was a bodybuilder lol.

What humanity does he have?

I touched upon it when I was comparing 616 Brock and the one we got in SM3.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

In the Ultimate comics because he's a teenager. They based it on 616 who was a bodybuilder lol.

No they didn't, there is no other Eddie Brock Jr. I also though EBJ was in his 20s' for USM lol.

 

[henzINNIT]

I can relate to Raimi's lack of interest in Venom. Never found the character all that compelling.

There was no reason to shore-horn the character in. People act as though Raimi ruined the character for lack of knowledge, but seem to forget he was given no time at all to write that mess of a script after they forced him to change his plans.

 

[Spooderman]

How can giving Peter and Eddie an actual connection, and Eddie a valid reason to hate Peter make Venom worse?

Valid? Peter exposed Eddie as a fraud, because Eddie was a fraud. He was nothing but a selfish arrogant borderline sociopath in the film, who had no reason to shot that photo other than to get 'mo money. If he wasn't possessed by the Symbiote and got powers from that mutant Spider, I see him doing the exact same thing he did.

If they had shown Eddie having hard financial times, than it would be more understandable for him to hate Peter, (along with thinking Peter/Spidey is stealing Liz Allen Gwen Stacy from him, which is barely touched on).

The connection thing I like though. Too bad it was wasted on this character.

I wonder what the script would be like if there was no Symbiote. I know Vulture would be playing Venom's role, but the who black suit emo Peter was in the film for a long period of time. Even though Sandy being Uncle Ben's killer was a wtf moment, I think it was handled well when Peter tried to kill him under the influence of the black suit. I can't really see Spidey kill people otherwise. Although I wish he realized it was negatively influencing him and started to take it off after blowing up half of his best friend's face instead of... accidentally punching Mary Jane.

 

[The Joker]

Valid? Peter exposed Eddie as a fraud, because Eddie was a fraud. He was nothing but a selfish arrogant borderline sociopath in the film, who had no reason to shot that photo other than to get 'mo money. If he wasn't possessed by the Symbiote and got powers from that mutant Spider, I see him doing the exact same thing he did.

If they had shown Eddie having hard financial times, than it would be more understandable for him to hate Peter, (along with thinking Peter/Spidey is stealing Liz Allen Gwen Stacy from him, which is barely touched on).

I mean valid in that Peter actually did something intentionally that screwed Eddie over. Peter exposed his fraud, cost him his job, and went on a date with the girl Eddie was infatuated with.

In the comic book Eddie Brock and Spidey never even met. All that happened was Eddie wrote some BS story about the Sin Eater's identity, then Spidey catches the real Sin Eater. Brock gets fired for writing a BS story. He blames Spidey for it. Even though all Spidey did was catch a serial killer. He didn't know Brock from Adam.

So Raimi very definitely made a big improvement on Brock in the movie.

 

[Spooderman]

I mean valid in that Peter actually did something intentionally that screwed Eddie over. Peter exposed his fraud, cost him his job, and went on a date with the girl Eddie was infatuated with.

In the comic book Eddie Brock and Spidey never even met. All that happened was Eddie wrote some BS story about the Sin Eater's identity, then Spidey catches the real Sin Eater. Brock gets fired for writing a BS story. He blames Spidey for it. Even though all Spidey did was catch a serial killer. He didn't know Brock from Adam.

So Raimi very definitely made a big improvement on Brock in the movie.

I'm not a comic reader so I don't know all the the details, but the backstory they gave Eddie Brock after he becomes Venom improved him, while it was absent in SM3

I understand that Eddie was a bad character in the comics because he was only created to have the Black Suit go somewhere. Initially the writers wanted Spidey to keep the Black Suit, and it didn't do anything but inhance his powers, but fans wanted his old suit back, so they make the suit a parasite who was slowly killing him or something, and got rid of it.

In Spider-Man the animated Series we first see the Black Suit making Pete more evil, which is why he gets rid of it, and the comics later reton it so it matched the cartoon better. In the cartoon Eddie has a connection to Peter and gets screwed over by both Spidey and Peter (Spidey stops him from taking pictures of the Lizard, because he doesn't want Connors to get in trouble, and Peter later exposes Eddie's story on Spidey stealing unobtanium from John Jameson's shuttle).

Eddie Brock in the cartoon was a definitely a vast improvement, which I can't say for Topher Brock. He was improved a little bit from the comic story-wise, but he was still a flat character, and much worse than TAS Venom. And considering the black suit arc in Spider-Man 3 was based off the TAS version, they should have done better.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

I can relate to Raimi's lack of interest in Venom. Never found the character all that compelling.

There was no reason to shore-horn the character in. People act as though Raimi ruined the character for lack of knowledge, but seem to forget he was given no time at all to write that mess of a script after they forced him to change his plans.

I mean valid in that Peter actually did something intentionally that screwed Eddie over. Peter exposed his fraud, cost him his job, and went on a date with the girl Eddie was infatuated with.

In the comic book Eddie Brock and Spidey never even met. All that happened was Eddie wrote some BS story about the Sin Eater's identity, then Spidey catches the real Sin Eater. Brock gets fired for writing a BS story. He blames Spidey for it. Even though all Spidey did was catch a serial killer. He didn't know Brock from Adam.

So Raimi very definitely made a big improvement on Brock in the movie.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

I'm not a comic reader so I don't know all the the details, but the backstory they gave Eddie Brock after he becomes Venom improved him, while it was absent in SM3

I understand that Eddie was a bad character in the comics because he was only created to have the Black Suit go somewhere. Initially the writers wanted Spidey to keep the Black Suit, and it didn't do anything but inhance his powers, but fans wanted his old suit back, so they make the suit a parasite who was slowly killing him or something, and got rid of it.
.

No and No lol. The backstory was slightly altered, in that Eddie tried to commit suicide, instead of asking for God to kill Peter. The suit wasn't slowly killing him either, all it wanted was a mutual bond with Spider-Man/Peter. It did nothing from hatred until it found Brock.

 

[DX]

In the Ultimate comics because he's a teenager. They based it on 616 who was a bodybuilder lol.

He was a mix of 616 and Ultimate Eddie.