The Dark Knight Rises The Official Rate/Review Thread for TDKR (TAG SPOILERS!!!) - Part 1

[KILLING JOKER]

I liked pretty much everything they presented but like you point out you'd blink and something new had happened, and then a second later the emotional impact was gone because its on to the next scene.

That scene on the roof, the interrogation of Joker, the 'magic trick' were really drawn out scenes that gradually built tension and the characters always had time to reflect.

In this movie you had a lot of very emotional scenes that simply had no payoff. Alfred's gone and Bruce doesn't even really mention it, just kind of moves on. He sleeps with Miranda then at the end he's trying to save her because, does he like her, it's not clear. Bane and Talia are going to sacrifice themselves but they never dive into the emotions. They treat a bomb going off like they are waiting on a bus.

That's really all it is.

Like you say with Selina, wasn't she basically screwing him over until the very end?

Foley died, no one cares. Wasn't that like a really good friend of Gordon and Blake? They're not sad?

The Mayor is dead. The city freaks over Dent but not their equally noble Mayor?

They'd sure as hell care about the Football team (at least Hines Ward is okay ).

It just felt like with every scene they just wanted to wrap up and move to the next thing.

So like I say 20 pounds of story in a 5 pound bag. At least you can say though they made it entertaining and cool unlike Raimi.

Yeah, that's my thought. Even with all those flaws it's certainly had some amazing scenes. Foley was really a mistake IMO. He's a pointless character who's actually given an arc when he does not earn it and, in the end, no-one cares anyway. Everyone knew this was the last so we want as much Bruce as possible. So every moment Blake or Foley or whoever is on the screen, I'm going "really?"

 

[KILLING JOKER]

I dont get how everyone is picking TKDR apart saying that TDK was better, but....

-how does batman/bruce just catches plane rides with smugglers and no
one questions it?

It shows the scene with him asking Fox about it. Nuff said there.

-how the ferry scene was not only terrible in itself, but the biggest,
baddest criminal on the boat basically saves everyone? really?

The ferry scene is the worst part of TDK, I admit. It should have been cut or re-written. I feel like they took that concept, which was one scene in TDK, and went way overboard with it in TDKR

-how he survives the fall at the party with rachel?

His cape slowed the fall and his armor

-how bad the batman dialogue was at the end with the joker.

Yeah, I cringed a little

The ferry scene was weak but didn't ruin the movie for me just as the many flaws in TDKR didn't ruin the movie but there just seems like so many more noticeable flaws in it than TDK and BB. It's hard to ignore when there's so many.

 

[batman1115]

The ferry scene was weak but didn't ruin the movie for me just as the many flaws in TDKR didn't ruin the movie but there just seems like so many more noticeable flaws in it than TDK and BB. It's hard to ignore when there's so many.

what i meant by the smuggler plane thing was...

smuggler: what you got the bag mr wayne?

bruce: my batman suit

smuggler: ok. meet you at the LSI building.

that just seemed weak. again, none of the batman films are perfect. with comic movies, theres so much backstory and history its hard to do that. I think the flaws are so bad that we cant really look past them. im just surprised that everyone is picking it apart. there so much good in TDKR.

 

[KILLING JOKER]

what i meant by the smuggler plane thing was...

smuggler: what you got the bag mr wayne?

bruce: my batman suit

smuggler: ok. meet you at the LSI building.

that just seemed weak. again, none of the batman films are perfect. with comic movies, theres so much backstory and history its hard to do that. I think the flaws are so bad that we cant really look past them. im just surprised that everyone is picking it apart. there so much good in TDKR.

There was a-lot of good in it.

 

[James_Smith]

[BLACKOUT]Anyone else think at least one of the main "goodies" should have died in this film, for there to have been more emotional impact (also to be more realistic considering this was a 'war film'...)?

In BB, Bruce's parents both died (obviously).

In TDK, Rachel and Harvey died.

In this film, none of the good characters died...

It felt that there was so much more at steak here than in the previous two movies, and as such the violence and brutality hit a whole new level, but yet -- all of the principal characters on the good side lived?

Lucius survived the flood, Gordon survived the fall inside the truck holding the bomb, Alfred was never targeted at all, Selina was seen alive at the end, John Blake survived being pushed down the rubble and the gunfight in the court building, and Bruce (it appears) also survived the nuclear explosion (despite us seeing Batman inside the Bat mere seconds before it blew...).

Why did Nolan go with the "happy ever after" type conclusion to his trilogy, I wonder? Frankly it makes Talia's plan seem useless. Contrast it with the TDK, where Joker not only inflicted chaos upon the city of Gotham, but also on those closest to Bruce (Rachel burnt alive, Harvey destroyed as a person). Even in BB, though it's Chill that murders Bruce's parents, Ra's destroys Bruce's home and with it everything that was left of his parents.

Where is the emotional payoff here? Everyone lives; nothing Bane and Talia did have any permanent effect on the city or the characters. [/BLACKOUT]

For this reason, though I consider it an amazing film and superior in some respects to the previous two, it is the weakest of the trilogy, in my opinion.

 

[Reikowolf]

But the way Blake figured it out didn't make sense... " you've got that orphan face" what??? Sorry but that's a cop out.

I get what you're saying but I still disagree. Bruce Wayne being Batman is the most obvious conclusion given the citizens of Gotham... unless Bruce is a total playboy jerk, which he has built himself up to be

- the hotel pool party
- burning down his house in a drunken rage
- running away like a coward at his own party into his safe-room
- taking the entire cast of the ballet out to a party on international waters

A young boy, a kindred spirit in that they share the same tragedy, was able to see through the Mask of Bruce Wayne. IMHO it shows that Blake is more intelligent and inquisitive than other people, which does a lot to build him up as Batman's successor.

The alternative of batman telling him or him accidentally finding proof would have felt more of a cop out to me.

As I said, I see where you're coming from but I disagree with the cop-out statement.

 

[Travesty]

I dont get how everyone is picking TKDR apart saying that TDK was better, but....

-how does batman/bruce just catches plane rides with smugglers and no
one questions it?

-how the ferry scene was not only terrible in itself, but the biggest,
baddest criminal on the boat basically saves everyone? really?

-how he survives the fall at the party with rachel?

-how bad the batman dialogue was at the end with the joker.

One thing that both BB and TDK had going for them was originality within the trilogy. Do they all have plot holes? Sure, but at least the story was original at the time it came out, whereas TDKR is basically BB 2.0. They tried so hard to comes "full circle", that they forgot they already made that exact same movie. Hell, even some of the plot "twists" are exactly the same. They might as well just named Miranda Ducard, and gotten it over with.

 

[batman1115]

One thing that both BB and TDK had going for them was originality within the trilogy. Do they all have plot holes? Sure, but at least the story was original at the time it came out, whereas TDKR is basically BB 2.0. They tried so hard to comes "full circle", that they forgot they already made that exact same movie. Hell, even some of the plot "twists" are exactly the same. They might as well just named Miranda Ducard, and gotten over with it.

im not sure if you liked it or not, but i think the expections on this film were never gonna be met. i dont think nolan was gonna win with everyone, no matter what.

 

[Dark Raven]

What was the name of the Gotham football team in TDKR?

 

[Travesty]

What was the name of the Gotham football team in TDKR?

Gotham Rogues.

 

[samsnee]

I liked pretty much everything they presented but like you point out you'd blink and something new had happened, and then a second later the emotional impact was gone because its on to the next scene.

That scene on the roof, the interrogation of Joker, the 'magic trick' were really drawn out scenes that gradually built tension and the characters always had time to reflect.

In this movie you had a lot of very emotional scenes that simply had no payoff. Alfred's gone and Bruce doesn't even really mention it, just kind of moves on. He sleeps with Miranda then at the end he's trying to save her because, does he like her, it's not clear. Bane and Talia are going to sacrifice themselves but they never dive into the emotions. They treat a bomb going off like they are waiting on a bus.

That's really all it is.

Like you say with Selina, wasn't she basically screwing him over until the very end?

Foley died, no one cares. Wasn't that like a really good friend of Gordon and Blake? They're not sad?

The Mayor is dead. The city freaks over Dent but not their equally noble Mayor?

They'd sure as hell care about the Football team (at least Hines Ward is okay ).

It just felt like with every scene they just wanted to wrap up and move to the next thing.

So like I say 20 pounds of story in a 5 pound bag. At least you can say though they made it entertaining and cool unlike Raimi.

I agree with everything you wrote 100%. It just felt like it was going through the motions. I found the prison scenes to be completely boring, as the only point to it was for characters to give a backstory about the escaped prisoner. There was nothing really there.

And it just didn't feel like a city-wide scare to me. As much as I hated the ferry scenes in TDK, at least the lead up to it felt like an entire city was scared out their minds. In TDKR, all we got was a bus full of orphans.

 

[The Guard]

I'm kind of wonder why an organization capable of infiltrating the city that well needed to steal a nuke within the city. Seems like they could've snuck one in.

Also, all they really did was steal it. Why in God's name would anyone build a reactor that has a detonator on it? Or that turns into a bomb by basically just removing it.

And then he leaves it assembled...

Nevermind that the last "high tech machine" we're shown he has was used to almost destroy Gotham.

He realizes it can be a weapon...and he leaves it assembled.

It boggles the mind.

 

[parkerpete]

I loathed TDKR. I thought it was a huge drop in quality, mostly due to the screenplay, which played like fan-fiction to me. I knew I was in trouble as soon as Jim Gordon personally runs down into the sewer with a handful of cops and just stumbles on to Bane's hideout. The eyes just kept rolling after that.

I don't know why everyone hates the ferry scene in TDK so much. My biggest problem with it was the implausibility that no one would scan those ferries for bombs. But okay I could accept that the city was in chaos, and the cops were understaffed and overstressed so security was EXTREMELY lax. Also it was established that widespread corruption allows The Joker (through his mob contacts) free reign in the city.

But here's why the ferry scene is far and away much better than anything in TDKR: It fits the story's themes and illustrates them well. The Joker (in TDK obviously influenced by 'The Killing Joke') wants to prove that fear will drive normal people to do monstrous things. So what happens on the ferry is in many ways the point that the whole movie is driving towards: It offers the audience a ray of hope in human nature, while also powerfully showing the basic decency of the normal citizens and the potential for heroism in an average criminal. But of course, Nolan holds this temporary victory in tension with Harvey Dent's turn towards despair and evil.

Whereas in TDKR, there doesn't seem to be ANY theme, except this is the last one, so we're gonna up the stakes by holding the whole city hostage with a nuclear bomb and sparking a highly implausible class-war while the city waits to die. In the ferry, the temptation for the normal citizens is understandable: They are deathly afraid and have every reason to be, and it could be argued that their lives are more worthy of saving than the prisoners on the other boat. It works because it is easy for anyone to empathize with the fears of the people on that boat.

In contrast, the people in TDKR just riot after Bane tells them some goofy **** about Jim Gordon lying about the Dent Act, blah blah blah EVERYBODY FREAK OUT! Even though I don't understand why anyone would listen to a word the guy said because:

A. Judging by audiences in theaters, only about 30% of Gotham could have understood his garbled speech, and

B. The guy had just blown up the football team, killed the mayor, destroyed the bridges, murdered an innocent man in front of thousands, ETC ETC. What possible powers of persuasion could he have had over any thinking person?

C. Confronted with this psycho with a bomb, wouldn't people be more inclined than ever to turn towards authority? At that point, if I was in Gotham I would be like 'Dear God, please bring Jim Gordon back and give him all the power of a Fuhrer! As long as he kills this crazy with the fusion bomb! Civil rights, Schmivil rights!'

Speaking of bad characterization, maybe the lowest point was Alfred delivering his goodbye speech. He does nothing but spout clumsy exposition for the first half-hour of the movie, and then he delivers this long-winded speech to Bruce... which I got the feeling was so long-winded because even the hack who WROTE it had a hard time convincing himself that Alfred would behave like that. Even Caine couldn't make that speech seem believable to me.

I normally give Nolan a lot of credit for his brains, but this really seemed like a movie that was written by an adolescent who has pretensions towards being a dark, existential thinker but who in fact has no idea how human behavior actually works. It was nonsense even before you start counting the swiss cheese holes in the plot.

I really wanted this one to be good, but I honestly don't see what the defenders of this movie are seeing. I thought it was lazy and dumb the whole way through. And a waste of Anne Hathaway, who was the only person who brought her A-Game to this movie.

 

[Slushy]

What I didn't like:

Unlike BB and TDK, this film had a lot of bad writing. Unfortunately, ante it up hurt the quality of the film, but of course Nolan fans will say he can do no wrong!

I had trouble understanding Bane at times. Ironically, I didn't have a problem hearing what Batman said in this film or the previous one.

The Joker should've been mentioned.

The Bat Wing. Hated it.

Spoiler

How did everybody know Bruce Wayne was Batman? Blake, Bane, etc. Sh** was annoying!

Spoiler

Bruce Wayne's exile and fake death. If he wanted to give up being Batman, I understand, but the those two were too much.

Spoiler

The Batman / Catwoman love relationship was totally rushed. Everything romantic Bruce did with Miranda should've been with Selina.

Spoiler

Tom Hardy did great as Bane, but he wasn't evil enough as I had hoped. I wish he would've killed Morgan Freeman. I was wrong and Heath Ledger is still the king.

Spoiler

I didn't mind the John Blake character, but him being Robin was so tacked on. Had his real name turned out to be Tim Drake or Jean Valley (since he actually does become Batman), the ending would've been so much better.

What I liked:

Spoiler

The throwbacks to Batman Begins.

Spoiler

Ras Al Ghul's cameo and being revealed dead.

Originally, I hated Bane's voice because it didn't sound menacing enough, but I got used to it. Its distinct and subtle. Reminds me of Mads Mikkelsen's voice.

Bane's coat and the "deshi basara" chant.

Spoiler

The first Bane Vs. Batman fight. It succeeded where Knightfall failed. (I always hated the Batman lost because he was dead tired BS). Had Bane said the exact quote from my signature, it would've been perfect. When Bane tosses Batman's mask, all I could think was "Like a boss!"

Gotham getting fu**ed up even if its a plot the Joker would've carried out.

Spoiler

The twist with Talia. Even though the Internet spoiled it for me, the way it was done was still fantastic!

 

[the_monk]

I would say that TDKR is by far the most derivative and contrived of the trilogy, but even so, it was made with more artistry than most of the blockbusters you'll see. For example, I think most people figured Bane would break Batman. What gave that scene an unexpected emotional weight was Selina looking on.

The reason TDKR is enjoyable, to me, is because it stays faithful to the Bruce Wayne character's story arc, and provides a resolution for him. That helps it rise above its derivative plot.

 

[CConn]

It's plot was a Tale of Two Cities. It's supposed to be derivative.

 

[The Guard]

Because its derivative of A Tale of Two Cities?

 

[CConn]

But every movie - especially comic book movies - is derivative in that respect.

Batman Begins had the exact same plot as STM and SM1.

Plus all of the comic references, homages, and influences.

 

[BatLobster]

Each movie has been derivative in some ways. Watch The Shadow (with Alec Baldwin). Then watch Batman Begins.

I could see the point being made that TDKR is the most derivative of other action/superhero movies. I liked it though. This one felt the most comfortable in its own skin as a Batman film.

 

[the_monk]

It's plot was a Tale of Two Cities. It's supposed to be derivative.

I'm talking more specifically about the terrorist/nuclear bomb angle and the twists (ie. Miranda being Talia al Ghul). Highly derivative story ideas from this genre, yet Nolan managed to hit the beats pretty well.

In a lot of ways, the bomb idea is the same as the 3rd act of Batman Begins (the weakest part of the movie, IMO). Terrorists take over a piece of Wayne Corp equipment designed to better humanity, and try to manipulate it for malicious purposes.

 

[BatLobster]

Oh, this movie is trope heaven, no doubt about it. But it's awesome the way it manages to throw them all at you in ways that suit the story and the Batman world.

 

[CConn]

I'm talking more specifically about the terrorist/nuclear bomb angle and the twists (ie. Miranda being Talia al Ghul). Highly derivative story ideas from this genre, yet Nolan managed to hit the beats pretty well.

In a lot of ways, the bomb idea is the same as the 3rd act of Batman Begins (the weakest part of the movie, IMO). Terrorists take over a piece of Wayne Corp equipment designed to better humanity, and try to manipulate it for malicious purposes.

Yeah. But the bomb aspect has been a deriviative element for about the past 30 years.

Only, unlike in BB, TDKR actually used it in an extremely effective manner and on a larger scale than ever done before in a superhero movie. Plus it actually played into the overal social and economic context of the film extremely well.

In most movies - BB included - that kind of thing does nothing but make for some falsely inspired tension.

 

[the_monk]

Yeah. But the bomb aspect has been a deriviative element for about the past 30 years.

Only, unlike in BB, TDKR actually used it in an extremely effective manner and on a larger scale than ever done before in a superhero movie. Plus it actually played into the overal social and economic context of the film extremely well.

In most movies - BB included - that kind of thing does nothing but make for some falsely inspired tension.

No disagreement. We're pretty much saying the same thing.

 

[LostSon88]

In a lot of ways, the bomb idea is the same as the 3rd act of Batman Begins (the weakest part of the movie, IMO). Terrorists take over a piece of Wayne Corp equipment designed to better humanity, and try to manipulate it for malicious purposes.

Wasn't that the intention though? Talia's whole mission aside from exacting revenge on Bruce was to finish what her father started in Batman Begins and destroy Gotham.

Only difference was that Talia and Bane are bat-s*** crazy and were prepared to die for the cause.

 

[jmc]

I liked pretty much everything they presented but like you point out you'd blink and something new had happened, and then a second later the emotional impact was gone because its on to the next scene.

That scene on the roof, the interrogation of Joker, the 'magic trick' were really drawn out scenes that gradually built tension and the characters always had time to reflect.

In this movie you had a lot of very emotional scenes that simply had no payoff. Alfred's gone and Bruce doesn't even really mention it, just kind of moves on. He sleeps with Miranda then at the end he's trying to save her because, does he like her, it's not clear. Bane and Talia are going to sacrifice themselves but they never dive into the emotions. They treat a bomb going off like they are waiting on a bus.

That's really all it is.

Like you say with Selina, wasn't she basically screwing him over until the very end?

Foley died, no one cares. Wasn't that like a really good friend of Gordon and Blake? They're not sad?

The Mayor is dead. The city freaks over Dent but not their equally noble Mayor?

They'd sure as hell care about the Football team (at least Hines Ward is okay ).

It just felt like with every scene they just wanted to wrap up and move to the next thing.

So like I say 20 pounds of story in a 5 pound bag. At least you can say though they made it entertaining and cool unlike Raimi.

It's almost two films worth of story in Rises.