Okay, well just got back. This a a very good movie, however some things just don't sit well with me.
-many scenes seem short and/or rushed
-main characters seem to dissappear through parts of the movie
-the ending is kind of whatever for me, it kind of comes across like Nolan tried to include a little bit of everything in it.
Of course I will still buy it and probably see it a few more times in the theatre, however it is hard for me to rank right now.
Saw it for a second time today with a much quieter crowd and was able to better hear Bane's dialogue and understand a few things I didn't pick up the first time.
In the opening airplane hijack I noticed that Bane was doing a blood transfusion from Dr. Pavel to a dead corpse, I think this was done so as to let forensic personnel to believe that the dead corpse was Pavel once they find the crashed airplane.
A few comments are about the jerky editing and I agree on one in particular, it's when Selina is picklocking Dagget's safe from his apartment, you couldn't tell whose safe she was opening until Dagget comes into the room.
Just saw the movie. The theater was packed. I think it was sold out. Anyway, I loved it. Loved everything about it even the ending. Perfect way to end the trilogy, IMO.
But the city is not "limping along". It's thriving in a crime free era where according to Blake things are so good that the Cops will be reduced to chasing overdue library books. Not to mention the Senator's comment about the Mayor planning to get rid of Gordon because he's surplus to requirements now in this peaceful era.
That's not how they see it. Its a very self-righteous point of view by the LOS. Akin it to a recovering alcoholic who gets back w/ his gf and is thriving. There's going to be some people who, regardless of how well they're doing will not be able to see past his well…past.
Bad example I guess but try and see where i'm coming from.
If that's limping along then the LOS have a damn stupid idea of limping along.
They don't care. That's the point. In their eyes Gotham must be purged. If anything, for the crimes and chaos of their past transgressions. Again, its a self-righteous and narrow perspective.
As Bane himself said in the movie, in their eyes the LOS is "Liberating" the citizens of Gotham.
I know that's the excuse Talia gave, but it makes no sense for the reasons above.
Ra's never saw past Gothams struggles. He had already deduced that the city needed a fresh start. Gotham could've been selected as the one of top cities in the entire country and it still wouldn't have mattered. Talia wanted to honor that.
That's not how they see it. Its a very self-righteous point of view by the LOS. Akin it to a recovering alcoholic who gets back w/ his gf and is thriving. There's going to be some people who, regardless of how well they're doing will not be able to see past his well past.
Bad example I guess but try and see where i'm coming from.
I really don't see where you're coming from because it flies in the face of the LOS in Batman Begins. Gotham City was a dirty corrupt city in that. Even when Thomas Wayne tried to combat it with economics, he was just slapping a band aid on the problem with money. But the crime never went away. The city was limping on life support.
Total opposite state of affairs in TDKR. Things were great. Had Bane known that was all based on the lie of Harvey Dent, then it would be a different story. But he only found that out by accident after he had set his plan in motion.
No, it's not. You say they don't care. I say they do. They cared in Begins. That's why this didn't make sense.
In their eyes Gotham must be purged. If anything, for the crimes and chaos of their past transgressions. Again, its a self-righteous and narrow perspective.
Where are you getting that philosophy from? That was never stated. Bane said he was completing the work of Ra's Al Ghul. Ra's Al Ghul's work was to destroy a crime ridden hopeless city not a crime free one.
As Bane himself said in the movie, in their eyes the LOS is "Liberating" the citizens of Gotham.
That's because Gotham was a struggling hopeless city.
He had already deduced that the city needed a fresh start. Gotham could've been selected as the one of top cities in the entire country and it still wouldn't have mattered. Talia wanted to honor that.
No, Talia said she was finishing her father's work, just like what Bane said. Both of them are completely 100% wrong. Ra's Al Ghul's philosophy was "The League of Shadows has been a check against human corruption for thousands of years". "Crime despair, this is not how man was supposed to live" etc etc.
Gotham was not like that in any way, shape, or form in TDKR.
To me, an worse thing is that he came in the nick of time before the bomb exploded. The whole bomb plot-line made no sense whatsoever, imo. I didn't like it when he Nolan did it in Batman Begins with the water vaporizer and I don't like it here too.
Thats why to me TDK is better. No stupid devices. Just Joker type of thinking vs Batman's. That is the perfect Batman movie, imo.
I think ultimately the vaporizer and bomb both serve well as plot devices. TDK did have a few convoluted plot devices as well, such as the Joker's attack on hospitals and the ferries with civilians/inmates.
I think people are forgetting that Batman Begins took place in the Narrows, which is the scummiest place in all of Gotham. That could be why the scenes in TDKR don't look as horrible and crime ridden.
I liked how this movie shows Gotham in daylight for the first time. It goes with the whole "dawn is coming" line from TDK and that light, rising above, and overcoming Bane could be accomplished by Batman.
I really don't see where you're coming from because it flies in the face of the LOS in Batman Begins. Gotham City was a dirty corrupt city in that. Even when Thomas Wayne tried to combat it with economics, he was just slapping a band aid on the problem with money. But the crime never went away. The city was limping on life support.
Total opposite state of affairs in TDKR. Things were great. Had Bane known that was all based on the lie of Harvey Dent, then it would be a different story. But he only found that out by accident after he had set his plan in motion.
No, it's not. You say they don't care. I say they do. They cared in Begins. That's why this didn't make sense.
Where are you getting that philosophy from? That was never stated. Bane said he was completing the work of Ra's Al Ghul. Ra's Al Ghul's work was to destroy a crime ridden hopeless city not a crime free one.
Bane was lying there. He was feeding Gotham false hope so he could kill it.
That's because Gotham was a struggling hopeless city.
No, Talia said she was finishing her father's work, just like what Bane said. Both of them are completely 100% wrong. Ra's Al Ghul's philosophy was "The League of Shadows has been a check against human corruption for thousands of years". "Crime despair, this is not how man was supposed to live" etc etc.
Gotham was not like that in any way, shape, or form in TDKR.
You're almost making the LOS to sound like a peace keeping organization.
Destorying Rome? Loading Tradeships with plague rats? This is not the agenda of an organization with the best intentions of mankind.
They're a terrorist group with misguided ideals.
You really believe that Talia was going to come to Gotham, see what great shape the city was in and let them be? Gimme a break. She and Bane came there with very clear cut intentions regardless of how well Gotham was doing.
Like I said, they don't care how prosperous the city was. They wanted revenge for their fallen leader and the best way to do that was to finish the job he started 8 years before. They wanted Bruce to witness the destruction of his city, destruction that he prevented when he defeated Ra's all those years ago.
Thus from their misguided point of view, Gotham was still limping along. This whole "peace time"? It was simply another bandaid.
Revenge was the main motivation but the League wanted to destroy a clean city because it was built on an 8 year lie. Bane's speech outside Blackgate Prison explained that.
I'm sure everybody is going to keep going around and around in circles about this.
Bottom line - The movie had many flaws. Not enough to ruin it but enough to limit it's full potential.
Right. But they don't do it to cities that don't need saving.
You really believe that Talia was going to come to Gotham, see what great shape the city was in and let them be? Gimme a break. She and Bane came there with very clear cut intentions regardless of how well Gotham was doing.
I know that. That's where the big flaw lies. They are not adhering to the rules of the LOS. It makes no sense.
Like I said, they don't care how prosperous the city was. They wanted revenge for their fallen leader and the best way to do that was to finish the job he started 8 years before. They wanted Bruce to witness the destruction of his city, destruction that he prevented when he defeated Ra's all those years ago.
How can years of peace time be a band aid? Gotham never attained a crime free hopeful status like this before. Things were great and were not showing any signs of changing.
Revenge was the main motivation but the League wanted to destroy a clean city because it was built on an 8 year lie. Bane's speech outside Blackgate Prison explained that.
Bane did not learn about that lie until he read Gordon's speech about Harvey Dent. His plan was well under way by then.
Now if he had found out about the Harvey Dent cover up and then come to Gotham with an agenda to destroy it, that would have made complete sense and fell in line with the ideology of the LOS that was established in Batman Begins.
Actually, there was still an imbalance. The city was still rotten to the core. A large portion of Bane's army were homeless Gothamites looking for work; work they couldn't find up top. Disinfranchised people.
That was a smoke screen for their true intentions, though. All out vengeance.
In the eyes of the League of Shadows, Gotham is and has always been well beyond saving and that it was long overdue for a purging. This so called peace time is simply the city "limping" along. It must be destroyed so it can be reborn.
Couple that with Talia simply wanting to complete her fathers quest than you'll see how clear it is.
Its not the first time an organization has forgotten the purpose of their existence. Ras Al Guhl is no longer the leader of the LOS. The only one to enforce the so called, "rules" are Talia and Bane. Two individuals "born and raised in hell on Earth."
[/QUOTE]Right, and once again that is the flaw. The LOS does not kill a thriving good city just to punish one man. [/QUOTE]
Maybe Ra's Al Guhls LOS. Talia's and Banes however
When they kill they do it to restore a balance. There was no imbalance here.
In their mind, there was an imbalance. Even Selina hinted at it.
How can years of peace time be a band aid? Gotham never attained a crime free hopeful status like this before. Things were great and were not showing any signs of changing.
I really don't know any other way I can say this since I have many times already. Talia, Bane and the LOS came to Gotham for revenge. Frankly, they didn't care what state Gotham was in.
Actually, there was still an imbalance. The city was still rotten to the core. A large portion of Bane's army were homeless Gothamites looking for work; work they couldn't find up top. Disinfranchised people.
That was a smoke screen for their true intentions, though. All out vengeance.
I am a huge Nolan and Batman fan and was pretty disappointed by this movie. Over the last few years, I thought a lot about what the plot of TDKR could possibly be and this movie was on the low-end of that spectrum. It seemed like Nolan was so focused on creating a “full-circle” trilogy that in the end the movie and trilogy were hurt. Going into TDKR, I realized that BB and TDK were so different that it was going to be pretty hard to tie them together so I was hoping that Nolan would just focus on utilizing character development as way of tying them together. Instead, Nolan used the plot as a way to tie the movies together and made the first movie in the trilogy that was plot and not character driven.
I think the biggest problem I had with TDKR was the lack of focus on Gotham overall. Going into this movie I thought Gotham would be the second biggest character behind Bruce Wayne. I thought we would see Gotham reacting to peace, to true anarchy, to the truth about Harvey Dent, and to finding out that Bruce Wayne was Batman. I was hoping that Batman/Bruce Wayne’s life and eventual death would inspire the citizens of Gotham to come together and take their city back just the way Bruce’s parents death had inspired Bruce. This would have proven Batman/Bruce right and all of the series’ main villains wrong about Gotham. Instead Batman and some cops beat Talia Al Ghul/Bane against all odds and Gotham didn’t matter.
Other big disappointments include:
1. The way Gordon’s pain about the Harvey Dent lie was handled. Gordon going in front of an audience saying I was going to tell you the truth about Harvey Dent but now I’m not thing felt very weird. Wouldn’t have someone asked what the hell he was talking about? IMO a better way to handle it would have to Gordon alone in his apartment (without his family that left him) reading the speech and then crumpling it up and throwing it into the garbage. I would have also liked to see Gordon reunited with his family at his end of the movie.
2. The way Bane’s back-story was handled. Instead of having Alfred tell Batman about Bane right away there should have been more mystery around the character. Bane should have revealed his back-story to Batman as they were fighting and when he dropped him off in the pit.
3. On a somewhat related note: Batman should have been forced out of retirement by the actions of Bane. It was strange to me that Batman was on the scene right way Bane made his first attack on Gotham because Alfred told Bruce about Bane. It would have been more powerful if Bruce had to choose between standing on the sidelines or coming back as Batman even though he was not prepared as Gotham was being slowly taken over.
4. The Miranda Tate one night stand scene didn’t really fit in. Perhaps they could have tried to build a back-story between them, that they had been working on the clean energy project for the last couple of years and grew close – this would have made it even more powerful when she turned on him.
Other minor annoyances:
John Blake somehow knowing Bruce Wayne was batman. Selina Kyle somehow knowing about Bane and where he was located. Bruce’s bankruptcy felt brushed over. Ra’s as Ghul reasoning for kicking Bane out of LOS. Bane’s voice and anticlimactic death. The pacing of TDKR - I think this is the first movie I that I have ever thought moved way too fast. The unoriginal ticking-time-bomb plot. How TDKR felt like a repeat of BB with the whole destroy Gotham and an Al-Ghul pretending to be someone they are not.
So I’m not totally negative, I did like the way the movie handled Selina Kyle, the 1st Batman/Bane fight, and I really liked all of Alfred’s scenes.
But if the goals are now twisted that demands it be brought to attention otherwise it smacks of contradiction. It's not even implied her interpretation of her fathers goals are corrupt, it comes across as the exact opposite of those goals.
Okay, well just got back. This a a very good movie, however some things just don't sit well with me.
-many scenes seem short and/or rushed
-main characters seem to dissappear through parts of the movie
-the ending is kind of whatever for me, it kind of comes across like Nolan tried to include a little bit of everything in it.
I thought it was a very good movie as well. However it was very long.
it didn't feel rushed, but that it was actually quite slow. But in all that slowness, I felt certain things were rushed.
There were two 'chapters' which were extremely long, and took up a majority of the film time
both bruce wayne coming out of retirement, and Bruce Wayne escaping the prison
took a very long time to come about. Understandably, these chapters needed to take their time. But the conclusions to both felt very sudden
Batman finally reappearing was all of a sudden, as well as the oh, 5 months have passed at the end of the prison chapter
Otherwise I thought it was a fine film. It was almost exactly what I was expecting. Very rarely does the third instalment of a trilogy top those movies that came before it. Dark Knight was very Empire Strikes Back in this regard. I was a very hard movie to top.
These are the things I would have changed:
1) a little more lead in to the return of batman, which could easily have been inserted into the film, in favour of some other scenes that were included in the opening 'Batman is retired' chapter. 2) a slight shortening, and more use of montage during the prison scene show time passing, rather than 5 months later... 3) I would not have shown Bruce Wayne at the end of the movie: I would have shown Alfred smiling, and end there. Leave it a little more open ended, rather than show Bruce is alive outright. Drop the clues, but never confirm it.
But I thought this movie was a fine conclusion to this main line of batman story.
I feel that they have long term plans, otherwise they wouldn't have had that reveal at the end. Everything is in place for a good team up, if WB can get their other properties out in both a timely manner, and pleasing form.
The main complaint I hear from most people who didn't enjoy the film, was that it wasn't a comic book movie. I always then ask them: did you watch the first two? They are comparing to the marvel movie universe, which is fluffy and frilly. This current batman universe is really a solid attempt to ground the character in reality. It's a good approach, and I hope the keep it up with both Man Of Steel, and whatever other properties are in the pipeline. They need to differentiate themselves from the marvel films, this is the perfect way. Trying to bring realism to their properties.
I hope this film performs well, because it certainly deserves recognition, even though some changes could be made to make it flow better.
No, it isn't. If it was, Bane wouldn't have half his army made of homeless Gothamites. Selina basically says that in the film. Gordon's attitude in the beginning of the film confirms it. He knows and feelings that everything could crumble at any moment, because of the lie and what that lie has brought.
Dagget was an *******, but he was working with Bane, who was working with the League of Shadows. So near as I can tell, the only real corruption we saw was caused by the League of Shadows.
Saw the film twice on the weekend. Loved it but the film was definitely the weakest of the entire trilogy. Great movie but certainly didn't match the expectations set out by TDK. It was always going to be a tough ask to top TDK.
The film is far from perfect and there are many issues. I felt that the plot was not overly original, the twist wasn't written in well, lack of subtlety from Nolan's direction, lack of clarity in Bane's voice and poor pacing/editing hurt the film. The juggling of the main plot with the side plots was well handled enough but there was a sense of it all being too much for one film. They could have easily broken up TDKR into 2 films if they wanted to.
While I obviously had numerous issues with the film there were certainly great moments. The strong cast once again delivers top notch performances. With the addition of JGL, Hathaway and Hardy they all pitch in. Catwoman almost stole the show. Technically it was hard to fault the film.
Overall I really enjoyed the film. The almost 3 hour running time never really felt that long. Despite my issues with the film I was still totally engrossed from start to end. I obviously wanted more from the film but it was still a very satisfying conclusion to an epic trilogy. By far one of the best film trilogies in recent times. Can't wait for the trilogy box set to hit BR.
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