The Dark Knight The Rachel Dawes thread

[Laderlappen]

I dont think Rachel's death would add anything new. I dont think its good for the story, its a bit cliche and unoriginal actually to me. Batman already have Harvey Dent and his parents to cry about. Adding Rachel's death would put the mood of the movies too low in my opinion. Even if these are very dark movies, they have a light mood that makes them fun too watch, and I want to keep it that way. Yes I know there are worse things in the world, but what has that got to do with this movie?
With Rachel's death I find it hard for Bruce to start a fling with Catwoman unless the third movie takes place long after the second. And like I said, I have no desire to see Bruce mourn Rachel's death half the movie.

And BatmanFanatic, that you even have the balls to says something like that!

 

[David Rice]

You really need to get over this grudge that you have against me.

And you also need to learn that in a message board everything is an opinion, stating it becomes redundant, and if people actually believe it, that's their problem.

That had nothing to do what I wrote.

Besides, I went out on limb to resolve the issue with you weeks ago and you never replied:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?p=14716667#post14716667

 

[Crook]

I dont think its good for the story, its a bit cliche and unoriginal actually to me.

Since when is it normal for the romantic interest to be killed off in a franchise?

 

[Laderlappen]

Its not just love interest. Anybody close really. Killing a love interest/family member/friend to create some motivation or hate for the badguy has become common.

 

[BatmanFanatic]

I dont think Rachel's death would add anything new. I dont think its good for the story, its a bit cliche and unoriginal actually to me. Batman already have Harvey Dent and his parents to cry about. Adding Rachel's death would put the mood of the movies too low in my opinion. Even if these are very dark movies, they have a light mood that makes them fun too watch, and I want to keep it that way. Yes I know there are worse things in the world, but what has that got to do with this movie?
With Rachel's death I find it hard for Bruce to start a fling with Catwoman unless the third movie takes place long after the second. And like I said, I have no desire to see Bruce mourn Rachel's death half the movie.

And BatmanFanatic, that you even have the balls to says something like that!

That I have the balls to say what exactly?

 

[BatmanFanatic]

Its not just love interest. Anybody close really. Killing a love interest/family member/friend to create some motivation or hate for the badguy has become common.

Well the choices are either Batman has no real personal motivation at all, or Rachel dies. 'Cause he's not going to find dramatic and compelling motives in Joker taking over a TV station or calling him names.

 

[Saint]

Ah, but I feel hating her is still relevant. Because of course, if the majority of people who saw the movie didn't hate her (I know thats an opinion, but she did get a Razzie, so it's not just a few oddballs) ... If most people didn't hate her, than her death would work even better for that purpose, as we'd have a genuine emotional attachment to her character.

Can you imagine - I know it's difficult - but imagine that Rachel Dawes was really a stunning, charming, plucky girl who stole our and Batmans heart. Imagine that she just touches something innocent and wonderful inside all of us, the belief in fighting for justice, the faith in true love from childhood friendship, imagine she represented Bruce Wayne thought was good and pure in this world. And then imagine the Joker poisons her to death, or whatever he does.

Doesn't it send chills down your spine? Like a truly great, sweeping character drama? Instead we're reduced down to "Hope the B**** dies!" and "Hows the B**** gonna die, ya think?" Believe me, I'd much rather have option 1. Soul-crushing, intense, but amazing and full of passion.



Yes, and if we all loved her it would be all the better for that purpose. Instead it's sort of the "oh...yah we know how this works. 'motive for angry Batman. got it.'" and the audience is still completely detached, sucking down their soda, waiting for the explosions to come.

Naturally. I'm going to say though, that most of the reason we dislike Rachel is 1) Katie Holmes, 2) Goyerlogue, and 3) Katie Holmes again. Even her role as Lesson Lady could feasibly be likable under the correct actress and the right lines. I know it's just three seconds in a trailer, but I already find Maggie more likable. Maybe this will rectify the question of us giving a crap when she dies.

Wow, I think you just summed up what really made me love that film no matter how many glaring problems it had...what it really did RIGHT was the tone between Batman and Selina. Not comic book faithful I grant, but I think the addition of Selinas blood-lust and insanity mirrored what Batman could turn into with his cold detachment as you said, and how badly he wanted to stop it all from going downhill at the end, how much he wanted to create a "happy ending" for her, and instead went home all alone, in the cold and in the snow, and at Christmas. God that was good! And then Catwomans head pops back up on screen, in a new shiny outfit and there is that little ray of hope....

Absolutely. Returns definitely had the best romantic subplot to date--thanks in no small part to the fact that it wasn't just a throwaway subplot. It was important.

Now that you mention it, I suppose he was killing people in the films. It just seems so.... not Batman ... that I almost miss it.

Indeed.

Everything was messed up by the overall crappiness. "Hampered" is a kind choice of words.

Indeed.

I don't think we'll have a truly miserable ending even if Rachel dies unless we feel something for the character first. .

Probably correct. Hopefully they can make this happen, whether she dies or not.

 

[batman497]

Ok, so you people thinks she's useless. Doesnt matter, the reason people still wants her to die is because of that. It doesnt seem like many really gives a flying fudge of what the effect it would give. And we already have Harvey Dent as that purpose you just mention. To question himself and whatever, which he will do anyway becuase of all the deaths caused by Joker and other criminals. I feel Rachel's death would make the movies to depressing, to serious, and would probably kill the idea of using Catwoman in the third movie. The significance of Rachel's death would in my opinion make Batman/Bruce too depressing, which I have no desire to see. Because that is really what matters here. The popularity of the character is insignificant in the context of what we are talking about. What the effect of her death would be is the big thing here. So there are really no facts there, just different opinions. And in MY opinion, the effect and significance are nothing that would help the movie.

So if they shouldnt have the character in the third, just dont have her in the movie. Much better idea in my opinion.

Batman/Bruce is depressing that's the point. It's not a happy story it's supposed to be sad. He's supposed to make you feel bad for him because his life actually sucks. Rachel's death will actually give bruce and batman more substance. It's called the dark knight for a reason.

 

[Figs]

A lot of people are forgetting that if she does die it's not just for Batman's evolution but it's also what could help throw Dent over the edge.

So far from everything we've heard in interviews and whatnot...they're not going with the "Big Bad Harv" thing from the animated series...thank god.

So with that possibly out of the equation, he's going to need a bit more than just acid in his face to make him go from super nice and honest guy to crazed, split personality nut case.

 

[Drz]

Well lets remember Harvey Dent's wife from the long halloween didn't need to die for Harvey to go Two-Face, neither does rachel. ;o

 

[Figs]

Well lets remember Harvey Dent's wife from the long halloween didn't need to die for Harvey to go Two-Face, neither does rachel. ;o

No, but in comics it's easier to get away with and easier to believe in sudden/quick changes in a characters emotions/motivation.

For the film they don't want to risk making it too fast and well...cheesy by having Dent all happy and then WHAM gets acid and suddenly becomes a freak.

Not too mention in The Long Halloween, wasn't Dent's house blown up? Or was that Gordon's? I forget.

 

[MAKIEVELLI]

You really need to start putting IMO after everything you post.

That's dumb. Are we so dumb that someone has to put IMO after every post so we can ascertain it is in his/her opinion?

 

[Dr. Crane]

the long halloween... that was dent's house that was blown up.. and he had just gotten home... walked inside... and boooom!

 

[Laderlappen]

That I have the balls to say what exactly?

Accusing me for being ok with Heath being dead. That is very offensive.

 

[Laderlappen]

Well the choices are either Batman has no real personal motivation at all, or Rachel dies. 'Cause he's not going to find dramatic and compelling motives in Joker taking over a TV station or calling him names.

Isnt the death of the whatever number of people Joker kills motivation enough to take him down?

 

[MAKIEVELLI]

Isnt the death of the whatever number of people Joker kills motivation enough to take him down?

The relationship between Batman and The Joker needs to be personal. Of course Bats will hate the Joker killing a lot of people, but I think Rachel dying will have a lot bigger impact than anything else.

 

[Laderlappen]

A lot of people are forgetting that if she does die it's not just for Batman's evolution but it's also what could help throw Dent over the edge.

So far from everything we've heard in interviews and whatnot...they're not going with the "Big Bad Harv" thing from the animated series...thank god.

So with that possibly out of the equation, he's going to need a bit more than just acid in his face to make him go from super nice and honest guy to crazed, split personality nut case.

That is by far the best reason anybody has given. Thought I think it depends on how they would do Two-face in the third.

 

[MAKIEVELLI]

That is by far the best reason anybody has given. Thought I think it depends on how they would do Two-face in the third.

The scarring is supposed to be like icing on the cake. I like the portrayals of Dent being a little nutty before he get's scarred but repressing it, then when the acid hits he just loses control.

 

[Laderlappen]

The relationship between Batman and The Joker needs to be personal. Of course Bats will hate the Joker killing a lot of people, but I think Rachel dying will have a lot bigger impact than anything else.

I dont agree at all about that. That would be against everything about the character. Batman is a man of justice, not a man of revenge. Which really means that he shouldnt hate somebody because of personal feelings. Batman fights crime for the citizens of Gotham's sake. That would make Bruce seem to care less about them than Rachel.

 

[Dr. Crane]

the long halloween... love the way they went about dent and how takes things on himself... before anything happens to him physically... for those who haven't read it... get to it!..

 

[Figs]

The scarring is supposed to be like icing on the cake. I like the portrayals of Dent being a little nutty before he get's scarred but repressing it, then when the acid hits he just loses control.

See, him being "a little nutty" beforehand I don't mind. If they were to mention something about the physical abuse he received from his father in the movie I would be cool with that.

I just don't want him to have a slight case of multiple personalities or major mood swings like in the animated series. I think that was too much.

 

[Bat-Mite]

I dont agree at all about that. That would be against everything about the character. Batman is a man of justice, not a man of revenge. Which really means that he shouldnt hate somebody because of personal feelings. Batman fights crime for the citizens of Gotham's sake. That would make Bruce seem to care less about them than Rachel.

And yet, the Batman of the comic books has had a major grudge against Joker for years because of his murdering Jason and paralyzing Barbara.

 

[magus]

See, him being "a little nutty" beforehand I don't mind. If they were to mention something about the physical abuse he received from his father in the movie I would be cool with that.

I just don't want him to have a slight case of multiple personalities or major mood swings like in the animated series. I think that was too much.

In all fairness, the cartoon needed to be that extreme to show the change over a 40 minute story arc. I like Big Bad Harv but I don't really care which way they go about it in the film. I think in the context of this movie having Harvey be completely pure and then completely tainted might work better than him starting off with problems.

 

[magus]

I dont agree at all about that. That would be against everything about the character. Batman is a man of justice, not a man of revenge. Which really means that he shouldnt hate somebody because of personal feelings. Batman fights crime for the citizens of Gotham's sake. That would make Bruce seem to care less about them than Rachel.

Batman isn't Superman, whom you seem to be describing. While Batman has a no-kill rule and generally abides by it, he is far from selfless. Batman hates plenty of people based on personal feelings; he just knows not to let that hate consume him and resort to murder. There is a big difference between that and selflessly serving the people of Gotham.

Batman wants to protect other people, but ultimately he is doing this crusade for himself. The death of someone he knows, especially an innocent, will push him farther than a civilian casualty would. Batman has succumb to revenge many times in many interpretations, in spite of the fact that he knows he shouldn't.

 

[Hole Shot]

I dont agree at all about that. That would be against everything about the character. Batman is a man of justice, not a man of revenge. Which really means that he shouldnt hate somebody because of personal feelings. Batman fights crime for the citizens of Gotham's sake. That would make Bruce seem to care less about them than Rachel.

I disagree, part of it with Batman is always personal in my opinion or he we wouldn't constantly be reminded in every other issue that his parents were murdered.