No no, i am. But who says we would get a Dark Knight Joker? If he's more like the comics and cartoons he would be more like a madman. And i think that this Luthor would be smarter than to team up with someone like that.
I dont agree with him being the same in The Dark Knight and the comics. Unless they have changed The Joker since The Dark Knight?
In the Dark Knight Joker was more rational and could co-operate with gangsters(somewhat). Personally i think Nicholson's Joker was more like the comics. But i read Batman comics in the late 70s, early 80s. (Most of them re-prints of Silver-age shenanigans)
I dont agree with him being the same in The Dark Knight and the comics. Unless they have changed The Joker since The Dark Knight?
In the Dark Knight Joker was more rational and could co-operate with gangsters(somewhat). Personally i think Nicholson's Joker was more like the comics. But i read Batman comics in the late 70s, early 80s. (Most of them re-prints of Silver-age shenanigans)
Yeah, the Silver Age ended a long time ago man. Joker isn't really "insane" anymore, hasn't been for over a generation. One of the most famous lines from Under the Hood is this:
Joker is extravagant and flamboyant. But he has all his mental faculties. He has reasoning, but he's ultimately nihilistic.
Yeah, i know the Silver Age ended long ago, that is just mostly the stuff i grew up with. I cant really name any Batman artists like you guys do on here. Frank Miller, from the 80s i guess. Oh, and Alan Moore of course. That's about all i can name , Im not sure what version of Batman we got here in Sweden in the 70s, i mean the artists and writers, but i would recognize the art style if i see it, i'll do a little research online.
I wanna say that i liked Swamp thing better though. He was just so different and cool and i liked monster movies as a kid. Also, i learned to read with 70s Swamp Thing.(It was printed in black and white over here)
If the Joker is insane, do you really think a smart man like Lex would take a chance on him? He's too much of a variable for Lex to ally with, not knowing that the Joker could easily tarnish his name in the public eye. Not to mention, I think the Joker is smart enough to know that he can't touch Superman as he is (plus...we have to introduce Kryptonite somehow...which means that NO one knows if Superman is weak to it). I'm not trying to nitpick the Timm movie, I just think if you adapt that kind of story for the movies, it has a lot of logical leaps and holes, especially with Man of Steel as the context.
Yeah check both of those out! Drive is the movie that made me like Ryan Gosling. Because of that movie, I really liked the idea of him as Batman before Affleck was cast.
And yeah Injustice, Public Enemies is another great one! The Batman/Superman dynamic was perfect there too. I wouldn't say that they got the Batman/Superman dynamic better though, they were both perfect. I definitely prefer Daly/Conroy to Newbern/Conroy, so that was another plus for Public Enemies.
I just felt the story in Timm's version was more concise, and I cared about the characters more, because they had all been built up and introduced in their respective animated series. Public Enemies is at its best when it focuses on Superman, Batman, Lex, Metallo or Amanda Waller.
Yeah check both of those out! Drive is the movie that made me like Ryan Gosling. Because of that movie, I really liked the idea of him as Batman before Affleck was cast.
And yeah Injustice, Public Enemies is another great one! The Batman/Superman dynamic was perfect there too. I wouldn't say that they got the Batman/Superman dynamic better though, they were both perfect. I definitely prefer Daly/Conroy to Newbern/Conroy, so that was another plus for Public Enemies.
I just felt the story in Timm's version was more concise, and I cared about the characters more, because they had all been built up and introduced in their respective animated series. Public Enemies is at its best when it focuses on Superman, Batman, Lex, Metallo or Amanda Waller.
If the Joker is insane, do you really think a smart man like Lex would take a chance on him? He's too much of a variable for Lex to ally with, not knowing that the Joker could easily tarnish his name in the public eye. Not to mention, I think the Joker is smart enough to know that he can't touch Superman as he is (plus...we have to introduce Kryptonite somehow...which means that NO one knows if Superman is weak to it).
"You bullied them. Hammered them to the point of desperation, and in their desperation they turned to a man they didn't fully understand".
Joker might be smart enough to know he can't hurt Superman. But he's nihilistic enough to not care. Also, did you ever think the film is supposed to end with Lex having a tarnished name?
I'm not trying to nitpick the Timm movie, I just think if you adapt that kind of story for the movies, it has a lot of logical leaps and holes, especially with Man of Steel as the context.
Yeah, i know the Silver Age ended long ago, that is just mostly the stuff i grew up with. I cant really name any Batman artists like you guys do on here. Frank Miller, from the 80s i guess. Oh, and Alan Moore of course. That's about all i can name , Im not sure what version of Batman we got here in Sweden in the 70s, i mean the artists and writers, but i would recognize the art style if i see it, i'll do a little research online.
Oh okay then. If you want I could give you a few Batman, Superman and JL recommendations from my favourite writers. And one other thing, if you do ever decide to catch up avoid the early/mid 90's like it's the plague.
I wanna say that i liked Swamp thing better though. He was just so different and cool and i liked monster movies as a kid. Also, i learned to read with 70s Swamp Thing.(It was printed in black and white over here)
Oh okay then. If you want I could give you a few Batman, Superman and JL recommendations from my favourite writers. And one other thing, if you do ever decide to catch up avoid the early/mid 90's like it's the plague.
Sure, i sorta got back into reading comics when the V for Vendetta movie came out. I got the graphic novel from my sister and i dug out some of my old comics from storage. I have also located a good comic book store in Stockholm so shoot some recommendations my way! Oh, and the 90s was when i stopped reading comics, so i gotcha.
Have you read Alan Moore's Swamp Thing? If so, is it any good? I like his other works, like Killing Joke and Watchmen. Oh, and that Superman story he did.(Which im ashamed to say i cant remember the english name of right now.)
I have done some online research on who did the 70s Batman when it was published over here and it was of course Neal Adams. Comics in Sweden was kinda messy when i grew up. Where i lived there was no comic book stores, so you got your comics at the supermarket or you had a subscription. And of course there was no Internet, so you couldnt discuss things like this. Besides i was just a kid, i had no idea who drew/wrote what back then. Anyway, Batman was printed in black and white too and he was called "Läderlappen" over here until 1989.
"You bullied them. Hammered them to the point of desperation, and in their desperation they turned to a man they didn't fully understand".
Joker might be smart enough to know he can't hurt Superman. But he's nihilistic enough to not care. Also, did you ever think the film is supposed to end with Lex having a tarnished name?
When I said tarnished name, I was referring to the fact that Lex is a public figure and is usually concerned with his image. Lex is not going to want to engage with someone who is a loose cannon at best and as such (especially if we're led to believe that he is smarter than Bruce Wayne), put his fabricated image at risk. I wasn't talking about the conclusion.
The Joker is nihilistic, but not reckless. He mirrors Batman in that he engages crime with a plan in mind and a point to prove. What point would he be making against a metahuman? The reason it works in Timm's movie is that it's a simple good guy vs. bad story and works well in that regard. But in a movie, that kind of development is shallow and simplistic.
Sure, i sorta got back into reading comics when the V for Vendetta movie came out. I got the graphic novel from my sister and i dug out some of my old comics from storage. I have also located a good comic book store in Stockholm so shoot some recommendations my way! Oh, and the 90s was when i stopped reading comics, so i gotcha.
Superman
Action Comics Vol. 2 #1-18 (including #0)
Action Comics is broken into three trades- Superman and the Men of Steel, Bulletproof and Superman at the End of Days
All-Star Superman
Final Crisis- Superman Beyond
Batman
Batman trades-
Batman & Son
The Black Glove
Batman RIP
Time and the Batman (This was an added run for the 700th issue and return of Bruce Wayne)
Batman & Robin trades
Batman Reborn
Batman Vs Robin
Batman and Robin Must Die!
The Return of Bruce Wayne
Batman, Incorporated trades-
Batman Incorporated Vol 1
Demon Star
Gotham's Most Wanted
Justice League
JLA Deluxe Edition Vol. #1-4
DC One Million
Final Crisis (only if you're familiar with the DC Universe)
Mark Waid
Superman: Birthright
Kingdom Come
Tower of Babel
Kurt Busiek
Superman: Secret Identity
The upcoming Batman: Creature of the Night
Have you read Alan Moore's Swamp Thing? If so, is it any good? I like his other works, like Killing Joke and Watchmen. Oh, and that Superman story he did.(Which im ashamed to say i cant remember the english name of right now.)
I don't think I've read the whole run but I thought Alan Moore's Swamp Thing is very good. But it's part of a shared universe where I think other characters are better (namely Lucifer, Sandman and parts of Hellblazer).
Moore did a couple Superman stories the most famous being Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? and For the Man Who Has Everything.
When I said tarnished name, I was referring to the fact that Lex is a public figure and is usually concerned with his image. Lex is not going to want to engage with someone who is a loose cannon at best and as such (especially if we're led to believe that he is smarter than Bruce Wayne), put his fabricated image at risk. I wasn't talking about the conclusion.
If Lex were so concerned about his image, he'd never engage Superman with criminals or mercenaries at all. But he does. Because his desire to see Superman defeated trumps his desire to be recognised for it.
The Joker is nihilistic, but not reckless. He mirrors Batman in that he engages crime with a plan in mind and a point to prove. What point would he be making against a metahuman? The reason it works in Timm's movie is that it's a simple good guy vs. bad story and works well in that regard. But in a movie, that kind of development is shallow and simplistic.
Joker most certainly can be reckless. It's his inconsistency that makes him such a threat. For example, how much thought do you think Joker gave into killing Jason Todd?
Superman
Action Comics Vol. 2 #1-18 (including #0)
Action Comics is broken into three trades- Superman and the Men of Steel, Bulletproof and Superman at the End of Days
All-Star Superman
Final Crisis- Superman Beyond
Batman
Batman trades-
Batman & Son
The Black Glove
Batman RIP
Time and the Batman (This was an added run for the 700th issue and return of Bruce Wayne)
Batman & Robin trades
Batman Reborn
Batman Vs Robin
Batman and Robin Must Die!
The Return of Bruce Wayne
Batman, Incorporated trades-
Batman Incorporated Vol 1
Demon Star
Gotham's Most Wanted
Justice League
JLA Deluxe Edition Vol. #1-4
DC One Million
Final Crisis (only if you're familiar with the DC Universe)
Mark Waid
Superman: Birthright
Kingdom Come
Tower of Babel
Kurt Busiek
Superman: Secret Identity
The upcoming Batman: Creature of the Night
I don't think I've read the whole run but I thought Alan Moore's Swamp Thing is very good. But it's part of a shared universe where I think other characters are better (namely Lucifer, Sandman and parts of Hellblazer).
Moore did a couple Superman stories the most famous being Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? and For the Man Who Has Everything.
Thanks for the tips! Oh, and the Moore Superman story i was talking about was Whatever Happened to the Man Of Tomorrow? That one was really good i thought.
If Lex were so concerned about his image, he'd never engage Superman with criminals or mercenaries at all. But he does. Because his desire to see Superman defeated trumps his desire to be recognised for it.
If this Lex is responding to the events of Man of Steel, and BvS is meant to be a platform for exploring the pros and cons with having metahumans in our world, then why wouldn't Lex engage with metahumans? If anything, Lex would probably antagonize Superman in the sense that he would want Superman gone. Which of course would pander to the fearful in Metropolis who believe that Superman is a threat to their wellbeing. The fearful would think that Lex is doing something positive to their city, hence the public image. Thus, I don't the desire to see Superman defeated trumps his desire to be recognized. If anything, they're one and the same to him. He wants to prove than mankind doesn't need to rely on a "god," especially on a god who can turn on us at any minute, and that we humans are capable of endless possibilities.
Joker most certainly can be reckless. It's his inconsistency that makes him such a threat. For example, how much thought do you think Joker gave into killing Jason Todd?
You're talking about a guy who went out of his way to go find Jason Todd's mother and use her as bait to get to Jason Todd alone and beat the ever-living **** out of him (and eventually bombing the whole building down...killing both Jason and his mother), because he knew Todd's mother would be scared ****less if she didn't follow what the Joker wanted her to do. It sounds like the Joker knew exactly what he was doing.
If this Lex is responding to the events of Man of Steel, and BvS is meant to be a platform for exploring the pros and cons with having metahumans in our world, then why wouldn't Lex engage with metahumans? If anything, Lex would probably antagonize Superman in the sense that he would want Superman gone. Which of course would pander to the fearful in Metropolis who believe that Superman is a threat to their wellbeing. The fearful would think that Lex is doing something positive to their city, hence the public image. Thus, I don't the desire to see Superman defeated trumps his desire to be recognized. If anything, they're one and the same to him. He wants to prove than mankind doesn't need to rely on a "god," especially on a god who can turn on us at any minute, and that we humans are capable of endless possibilities.
"If you assume Lex Luthor does what I want him to do and ignore your own precedent in other media then Lex Luthor will do what I want him to do".
Well duh.
My argument is, and always has been, Joker could fit in this film. Which he can, you just don't want him there because you've already created your own plot for the film.
You're talking about a guy who went out of his way to go find Jason Todd's mother and use her as bait to get to Jason Todd alone and beat the ever-living **** out of him (and eventually bombing the whole building down...killing both Jason and his mother), because he knew Todd's mother would be scared ****less if she didn't follow what the Joker wanted her to do. It sounds like the Joker knew exactly what he was doing.
Did you ever read Death In the Family? Joker didn't go out of his way to find Jason Todd's mother. Shiela did not know she was Robin's mother until Jason revealed it to her, she didn't even know Jason was still alive. Then Joker was like "I'mma kill the **** outta him".
He did not plan that. It was a coincidence Shiela was working for Joker.
It was also a crappy comic. Little in it makes much sense. The internet think it is a seminal comic because something important happened in it and it is widely available in paperback.
"If you assume Lex Luthor does what I want him to do and ignore your own precedent in other media then Lex Luthor will do what I want him to do".
Well duh.
My argument is, and always has been, Joker could fit in this film. Which he can, you just don't want him there because you've already created your own plot for the film.
Resorting to putting words in my mouth now? Perhaps, I should've made myself even more clearer, there are precedents I'm pointing to when conceptualizing Lex Luthor in Man of Steel's world. For instance, I'm drawing heavily on B/S: Public Enemies (where Luthor completely manipulates the media and mainstream consciousness into believing that he has good intentions while B&S knew Luthor’s public image was bs), and most especially Brian Azzarello’s Lex Luthor: Man of Steel, more specifically, in regards to Luthor’s paranoia and overall distrust for superheroes. The precedents are there if you had bothered to read the comment instead of making assumptions.
If that's your argument, then your argument sucks, plain and simple. All you've said is "Joker works in BvS because X, Y, Z did it" without going into detail as to why that would work. In fact, the evidence you brought up is flawed because you assume that what is essentially Timm’s plot can be adapted with no problems (we still need to see Kryptonite introduction so as to be an equalizing force, Luthor’s motivations, etc.). Lastly, quoting TDK means absolutely nothing as there’s a difference between a mob trying to fight back against Gotham’s partially restructured laws and police force, and DC’s smartest man having a personal vendetta as a result of fear and paranoia over Superman’s potential to do harmful things, as well as an ego that he could be as great as Superman. The mob acted out of desperation due to imminent prison time coming their way vs. Luthor’s personal conflict against superheroes. Luthor has no need to rely on an external force (who is bat**** crazy mind you) when he has money, and (street) smarts. Just because it worked in the cartoon movie, it doesn’t mean that the same can be said when it is applied to real world/movie logic.
Did you ever read Death In the Family? Joker didn't go out of his way to find Jason Todd's mother. Shiela did not know she was Robin's mother until Jason revealed it to her, she didn't even know Jason was still alive. Then Joker was like "I'mma kill the **** outta him".
He did not plan that. It was a coincidence Shiela was working for Joker.
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Oh, and the 90s was when i stopped reading comics, so i gotcha.
