The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 6

[Val_Zod]

Agreed though they made good points about us saying it would be in "perfect hands" at Marvel as we really have no idea how much better they could make it.

For all we know we might dislike "Homecoming"as a fanbase as much as FFINO (very very doubtful) but possible. Until I see that film I'm going to moderately reserve my thoughts on Marvel's FF.

Why should Homecoming have an effect on what we can expect from FF in Marvel's hand? Using your logic, we should judge Fox's entire output on cbm on how badly they handled Fantastic Four.

Aside from that, expectations for getting Spiderman right are much higher than Fantastic Four. Spiderman has 2 films that many still consider amongst the best in the genre, while Fantastic Four have had nothing but 2 schlocky films, one that wasn't even release and one many consider the worst Marvel based film of all time. I don't think FF fans are asking for too much on Marvel's part.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Well someone has to take the risk to make a film. It can't be that no-one makes a film in case they mess it up. If that were the case, Marvel shouldn't make any comic films in case they don't adhere to the source material at all.

Exactly! Sure, Marvel could screw it up, but what's the alternative? Because there's a 5% chance Marvel could screw it up we should instead hope Fox makes another film . . . with a 95% chance they'll screw it up.

The only way to be 100% sure you won't get a bad film is to have no film at all.

 

[Dark Raven]

Exactly! Sure, Marvel could screw it up, but what's the alternative? Because there's a 5% chance Marvel could screw it up we should instead hope Fox makes another film . . . with a 95% chance they'll screw it up.

The only way to be 100% sure you won't get a bad film is to have no film at all.

Even if it's more than 5%, the choice is between taking a gamble on an unknown and uncertain thing (Marvel) or on a known and certain thing (Fox) where Fox is known for making a pig's ear of the FF and certain to repeat their mistakes again.

It's like either you stay where you are trapped on a sinking ship, or you jump off and venture out into the unknown where you could still die but your chances of survival are better than on there.

 

[TheVileOne]

Even if there's a five percent chance, we have to treat it like it's an absolute certainty?

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Even if it's more than 5%, the choice is between taking a gamble on an unknown and uncertain thing (Marvel) or on a known and certain thing (Fox) where Fox is known for making a pig's ear of the FF and certain to repeat their mistakes again.

I think even calling Marvel "uncertain" is giving more credit to Pannikan's ridiculous premise than it deserves. Sure the outcome is uncertain because everything in life is uncertain to some degree.

But from a rational, logical, objective perspective, the quality of a future Marvel FF film is as certain as anything could realistically be. Consider this list of RT scores:

Fantastic Four 2015 9%
Fantastic Four 2005 27%
Fantastic Four ROTSS 37%
Thor Dark World 66%
Incredible Hulk 67%
Iron Man 2 72%
Avengers AOU 75%
Thor 77%
Iron Man 3 79%
Captain America (FA) 80%
Ant Man 80%
Captain America WS 89%
Civil War 90%
GOTG 91%
Avengers 92%
Iron Man 94%

For Marvel to make an FF film that would even come close to being as bad as the best FF film Fox has made would be completely unprecedented.

Worrying about something that is completely unprecedented and has never happened before is the height of irrationality.

 

[First Avenger]

I think even calling Marvel "uncertain" is giving more credit to Pannikan's ridiculous premise than it deserves. Sure the outcome is uncertain because everything in life is uncertain to some degree.

But from a rational, logical, objective perspective, the quality of a future Marvel FF film is as certain as anything could realistically be. Consider this list of RT scores:

Fantastic Four 2015 9%
Fantastic Four 2005 27%
Fantastic Four ROTSS 37%
Thor Dark World 66%
Incredible Hulk 67%
Iron Man 2 72%
Avengers AOU 75%
Thor 77%
Iron Man 3 79%
Captain America (FA) 80%
Ant Man 80%
Captain America WS 89%
Civil War 90%
GOTG 91%
Avengers 92%
Iron Man 94%

For Marvel to make an FF film that would even come close to being as bad as the best FF film Fox has made would be completely unprecedented.

Worrying about something that is completely unprecedented and has never happened before is the height of irrationality.

This. Marvel's line-up is better than anyone else in the CBM industry. Even if they make changes to the source material they still make CBMs that are still good at worst. Remember that the MCU is basically an alternate universe compared to the classic 616,similar to the Ultimate Universe and others.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

This. Marvel's line-up is better than anyone else in the CBM industry. Even if they make changes to the source material they still make CBMs that are still good at worst. Remember that the MCU is basically an alternate universe compared to the classic 616,similar to the Ultimate Universe and others.

And even as an FF fan, I wouldn't be opposed to changes to circumstances and side characters as long as the key characteristics of the main characters are maintained.

I would be okay with an alternate origin, for example. If the filmmakers want to make it a trip to the Negative Zone instead of space, fine, but maintain the key elements of adventure and exploration that characterized the original (and keep the relative ages, personalities, roles in the team etc). Don't have them get drunk, don't leave Sue alone while the boys do the exploring, and don't involve Doom. Those are the kind of dumb changes that screw things up.

And if Wyatt Wingfoot is a skinny kid from Detroit instead of a muscular Native American, who cares? Fox has never even cared enough to give us Wyatt Wingfoot, so a bad Wyatt Wingfoot would be better than no Wyatt Wingfoot.

I just want to see the Fantastic Four and Dr. Doom and Galactus and Silver Surfer as characters recognizable to what I grew up with and have wanted to see for the past 45 years.

We've all seen Spider-Man swinging from web to web through NYC in scenes that look like they came right out of the comics, but we've never seen the Fantastic Four looking anything like the Fantastic Four. We know from what we've seen in other films that Marvel will try to give us the key elements just like we know that Fox has no interest in giving us the FF and has screwed up royally - not just once but three times.

 

[First Avenger]

I completely agree with you Willie.

 

[Zarex]

Johnny Depp for Wyatt Wingfoot!

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Johnny Depp for Wyatt Wingfoot!

This is funny on several levels.

 

[HunBoy]

I don't want to see Depp in MCU.

 

[DawnWarrior]

For a couple legit choices for Wyatt, there's always Adam Beach. He's in his 40s, so he's about as old as most of the Avengers. And he can be added to the expanding list of guys who've done Marvel and DC. There's also Martin Sensmeier, who's in the upcoming Magnificent Seven. One of the Seven is now a full-blooded Native, and Martin plays that guy.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

For a couple legit choices for Wyatt, there's always Adam Beach. He's in his 40s, so he's about as old as most of the Avengers. And he can be added to the expanding list of guys who've done Marvel and DC. There's also Martin Sensmeier, who's in the upcoming Magnificent Seven. One of the Seven is now a full-blooded Native, and Martin plays that guy.

 

[Docker2.0]

That chick is hot.

 

[BarryAllen]

For a couple legit choices for Wyatt, there's always Adam Beach. He's in his 40s, so he's about as old as most of the Avengers. And he can be added to the expanding list of guys who've done Marvel and DC. There's also Martin Sensmeier, who's in the upcoming Magnificent Seven. One of the Seven is now a full-blooded Native, and Martin plays that guy.

I'd rather have a Wyatt who's the same or similar age range as Johnny, seeing how they are supposed to be friends and college roommates.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I'd rather have a Wyatt who's the same or similar age range as Johnny, seeing how they are supposed to be friends and college roommates.

Yeah, I'd like to start with Johnny in high-school and then introduce Wyatt in a later film when Johnny's in college.

I'd also love to see Agatha Harkness at some point too, but she should also be introduced later, after Franklin is born. It seems like too much to actually hope they could create a long-running series that would allow us to actually get Fantastic Four characters.

I have trouble imaging a world in which we don't just get crappy Fox film that doesn't resemble the FF followed by crappy Fox film that doesn't resemble the FF in perpetuity.

Is it really possible I'll live long enough to see a good Fantastic Four film?

 

[Web-Head]

LOL
http://www.cbr.com/stan-lee-reveals...Distribution&utm_campaign=CBR-FB-P&view=lista

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

LOL
http://www.cbr.com/stan-lee-reveals...Distribution&utm_campaign=CBR-FB-P&view=lista

Wow. Stan Lee actually admitted he didn't like something?

If I can translate from Stan Lee to normal person: "F*** Fox. F*** them so much for screwing up the best villain ever in comic book history not just once but three times."t:

I was thinking the other day, the most frustrating thing about Fox and Doom (and there are 10,749 frustrating things) is how close they got in ROTSS.

They had Doom in Latveria, scarred, in a room full of armor . . .

. . . and then he shows up, pretty as can be and sans armor a little later in the film.

Not only was that a completely blown opportunity, but it made no sense. What happened? How did he suddenly get back to normal?

And then when they did give him armor, they gave him that black, rubbery mess instead of real armor and had him say things like "Let's go for a spin"

I guess I should be glad that they didn't do him better. He still would have been screwed up, and then it would be more difficult for Marvel to create a version that wouldn't be compared.

Still, it's like they were really trying to screw up Doom in ROTSS when it would have been easier and made more sense to do him right.

 

[Batsfan1]

Wow. Stan Lee actually admitted he didn't like something?

If I can translate from Stan Lee to normal person: "F*** Fox. F*** them so much for screwing up the best villain ever in comic book history not just once but three times."t:

I was thinking the other day, the most frustrating thing about Fox and Doom (and there are 10,749 frustrating things) is how close they got in ROTSS.

They had Doom in Latveria, scarred, in a room full of armor . . .

. . . and then he shows up, pretty as can be and sans armor a little later in the film.

Not only was that a completely blown opportunity, but it made no sense. What happened? How did he suddenly get back to normal?

And then when they did give him armor, they gave him that black, rubbery mess instead of real armor and had him say things like "Let's go for a spin"

I guess I should be glad that they didn't do him better. He still would have been screwed up, and then it would be more difficult for Marvel to create a version that wouldn't be compared.

Still, it's like they were really trying to screw up Doom in ROTSS when it would have been easier and made more sense to do him right.

They show in the movie that when Doom goes to try to convince the SS to join him, the SS blows him off, Doom electrocutes him, then SS hits him with some cosmic energy and Doom is blown through a wall and he looks at his hand and it starts healing. He was wearing armor, but it's not easy to have someone walking around in realistic armor. I think the armor in that room is actually a piece of the armor that was used for the suit at the end. Of course in some comics Doom is barely damaged at all. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

 

[Dark Raven]

They show in the movie that when Doom goes to try to convince the SS to join him, the SS blows him off, Doom electrocutes him, then SS hits him with some cosmic energy and Doom is blown through a wall and he looks at his hand and it starts healing. He was wearing armor, but it's not easy to have someone walking around in realistic armor. I think the armor in that room is actually a piece of the armor that was used for the suit at the end. Of course in some comics Doom is barely damaged at all. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

What about Iron Man then? And War Machine? They have looked real in the films.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

They show in the movie that when Doom goes to try to convince the SS to join him, the SS blows him off, Doom electrocutes him, then SS hits him with some cosmic energy and Doom is blown through a wall and he looks at his hand and it starts healing. He was wearing armor, but it's not easy to have someone walking around in realistic armor. I think the armor in that room is actually a piece of the armor that was used for the suit at the end. Of course in some comics Doom is barely damaged at all. Have a very great day!

God bless you all!

. . . but he still has his electrical powers when he breaks in to steal the Surfer's board, and Ben didn't injure him when he smashed him into a wall:

And there's a deleted scene in which they show him adjusting his skin "mask". I question whether the film-makers even knew exactly what was going on. They could have certainly explained it better if they did (and were good story-tellers).

I believe I read somewhere (and this is the real shame of it) that some suits at Fox insisted that they couldn't have Julian McMahon and not feature his pretty face. When things like that take the place of good story-telling and faithfulness to the comic books, you get . . . well, we saw what we got.

 

[Zarex]

Doom in his armor is comparable to Fidel Castro wearing his military uniform. Like Cuba, Latveria is under constant threat from enemies that surround it on all sides. The Great Leader is ever at the ready to defend her from all threats foreign and domestic.

And if anyone is ever foolish enough to invade this sovereign nation Doom will trash them like he did the combined FF and Avengers team in "The Private War of Doctor Doom" from the fantastic show "The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes".

 

[Batsfan1]

What about Iron Man then? And War Machine? They have looked real in the films.

I said it wasn't easy, but the actors out of the armor are often more seen than them in it.

. . . but he still has his electrical powers when he breaks in to steal the Surfer's board, and Ben didn't injure him when he smashed him into a wall:

And there's a deleted scene in which they show him adjusting his skin "mask". I question whether the film-makers even knew exactly what was going on. They could have certainly explained it better if they did (and were good story-tellers).

I believe I read somewhere (and this is the real shame of it) that some suits at Fox insisted that they couldn't have Julian McMahon and not feature his pretty face. When things like that take the place of good story-telling and faithfulness to the comic books, you get . . . well, we saw what we got.

The original idea by the writers was that he was a Doombot, not the real one. I suspect a change in story is why that was deleted. But yeah, he could be thrown into the wall. I didn't say that is powers were gone. The writers have said that they were essentially told what to do and what to have in the movie by the producers, like power swapping and stuff.

 

[ADollarADay]

Post will be long, nothing new here, just what a buddy and I talked about. TLDR Disney could get the FF rights from Fox today if they wanted to, but they want to get more than just that from them.

Today, I was talking to a friend about these licenses that Disney doesn't have even though they bought the parent company (Marvel, Lucasfilm).

Some high level context. Disney has explicitly said they want everything in house (and why wouldn't they)? Iger mentioned it in 2009 and reiterated later. Feige has mentioned it. We also know they want the few Lucas rights they don't currently own as well. This is the company that went out of their way to get the rights to an unknown character - Oswald the Rabbit - after 70+ years because it was the creation of Disney himself, and they felt it belonged to them.

Basically they want the Spider-Man rights they don't currently have from Sony, the Indy distribution and future participation rights from Paramount, whatever Hulk/Namor rights they don't currently have and Marvel theme park rights from Universal, X-Men, FF, and SW:ANH distribution rights from Fox, and whatever else they don't have that is not publicly known.

Fox arguably has the rights to most things that Disney wants and I'll focus on that for this post. When talking to my friend, we both agreed that out of those 3, the weakest one and easiest to pull from Fox would be Fantastic Four. 3 BO bombs (including the 2015 mega bomb), lots of lost revenue, and little to no ancillary revenue makes for a weak franchise to hold on to.

Some people might not know, but Paramount had film (or at least distribution) rights to Thor, Captain America, Iron Man, and Avengers. After Disney bought Marvel, they worked out a deal with Paramount for buying them out of the distribution and marketing rights to Avengers and Ironman 3. The floor payment to Paramount would be $115MM, but they got significantly more than that due to the BO success of Avengers and IM3 (payout was probably closer to $200MM+). Disney then bought the rights to the 4 films Paramount had distributed (Ironman, Ironman 2, Thor, Captain America: TFA). We also know from the leaked documents that Disney paid Sony $175MM + a backend payment of 3.5% for every movie (up to $1B and with a ceiling of $130MM every 10 years) to buy them out of the 25% spiderman merchandise rights they had. That's why Sony got paid ~25MM for The Amazing Spiderman 2 even though they don't have any merchandising rights.

Marvel's MCU movies also make more profit than Marvel movies that are not MCU movies. The aforementioned Amazing Spiderman 2 and XMen DOFP made around ~70MM - 80MM on a 700MM+ gross BO take. Ant-Man, Captain America Winter Soldier, Guardians of the Galaxy, and Avengers AOU all made a profit of over $100MM, and that's either not counting merchandise revenue or not the real merchandise revenue value (as Marvel was moving from movie based merchandise to overall merchandising under Disney).

Why am I telling you all this? Simple. Disney could EASILY buy the movie rights to the FF if they wanted to. Right now. Fox would get a lot of **** from fans and especially shareholders if they said no to a deal like the one for Paramount (i.e. $115MM floor or 8-9% of the gross for, let's say Dr. Doom, Silver Surfer, and Fantastic Four movie, whatever is higher). Why keep holding on to a money losing franchise when you can get over $100MM in your coffers right now? However, I doubt Disney has offered Fox such a deal. They needed to do so with Paramount to kick start their MCU and get some value out of their investment. They don't need to give away such a high liquid capital to Fox for just the Fantastic Four. They want to get it all (i.e. X-Men and SW:ANH distribution rights). Or at the very least start pinching away at those rights Fox currently owns (similar to how they have slowly but surely pinched away a lot of Spider-Man rights from Sony). That's why we're still in limbo today, the same reason why probably the Hulk's (and maybe Namor) rights are still in limbo with Universal. Disney wants all those rights, not just parts of it and Fox is not willing to part with X-Men and SW:ANH.

Anyways, sorry about the rant, just the result of a friendly and lengthy conversation that I had

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Post will be long, nothing new here, just what a buddy and I talked about. TLDR Disney could get the FF rights from Fox today if they wanted to, but they want to get more than just that from them.

Today, I was talking to a friend about these licenses that Disney doesn't have even though they bought the parent company (Marvel, Lucasfilm).

Some high level context. Disney has explicitly said they want everything in house (and why wouldn't they)? Iger mentioned it in 2009 and reiterated later. Feige has mentioned it. We also know they want the few Lucas rights they don't currently own as well. This is the company that went out of their way to get the rights to an unknown character - Oswald the Rabbit - after 70+ years because it was the creation of Disney himself, and they felt it belonged to them.

Basically they want the Spider-Man rights they don't currently have from Sony, the Indy distribution and future participation rights from Paramount, whatever Hulk/Namor rights they don't currently have and Marvel theme park rights from Universal, X-Men, FF, and SW:ANH distribution rights from Fox, and whatever else they don't have that is not publicly known.

Fox arguably has the rights to most things that Disney wants and I'll focus on that for this post. When talking to my friend, we both agreed that out of those 3, the weakest one and easiest to pull from Fox would be Fantastic Four. 3 BO bombs (including the 2015 mega bomb), lots of lost revenue, and little to no ancillary revenue makes for a weak franchise to hold on to.

Some people might not know, but Paramount had film (or at least distribution) rights to Thor, Captain America, Iron Man, and Avengers. After Disney bought Marvel, they worked out a deal with Paramount for buying them out of the distribution and marketing rights to Avengers and Ironman 3. The floor payment to Paramount would be $115MM, but they got significantly more than that due to the BO success of Avengers and IM3 (payout was probably closer to $200MM+). Disney then bought the rights to the 4 films Paramount had distributed (Ironman, Ironman 2, Thor, Captain America: TFA). We also know from the leaked documents that Disney paid Sony $175MM + a backend payment of 3.5% for every movie (up to $1B and with a ceiling of $130MM every 10 years) to buy them out of the 25% spiderman merchandise rights they had. That's why Sony got paid ~25MM for The Amazing Spiderman 2 even though they don't have any merchandising rights.

Marvel's MCU movies also make more profit than Marvel movies that are not MCU movies. The aforementioned Amazing Spiderman 2 and XMen DOFP made around ~70MM - 80MM on a 700MM+ gross BO take. Ant-Man, Captain America Winter Soldier, Guardians of the Galaxy, and Avengers AOU all made a profit of over $100MM, and that's either not counting merchandise revenue or not the real merchandise revenue value (as Marvel was moving from movie based merchandise to overall merchandising under Disney).

Why am I telling you all this? Simple. Disney could EASILY buy the movie rights to the FF if they wanted to. Right now. Fox would get a lot of **** from fans and especially shareholders if they said no to a deal like the one for Paramount (i.e. $115MM floor or 8-9% of the gross for, let's say Dr. Doom, Silver Surfer, and Fantastic Four movie, whatever is higher). Why keep holding on to a money losing franchise when you can get over $100MM in your coffers right now? However, I doubt Disney has offered Fox such a deal. They needed to do so with Paramount to kick start their MCU and get some value out of their investment. They don't need to give away such a high liquid capital to Fox for just the Fantastic Four. They want to get it all (i.e. X-Men and SW:ANH distribution rights). Or at the very least start pinching away at those rights Fox currently owns (similar to how they have slowly but surely pinched away a lot of Spider-Man rights from Sony). That's why we're still in limbo today, the same reason why probably the Hulk's (and maybe Namor) rights are still in limbo with Universal. Disney wants all those rights, not just parts of it and Fox is not willing to part with X-Men and SW:ANH.

Anyways, sorry about the rant, just the result of a friendly and lengthy conversation that I had

I agree with most of what you're saying and, yes, I think Fox would jump at $100 million for FF, but Disney won't offer that for rights they know they'll get back in a few years for free.

I strongly suspect that Marvel and Fox have already come to a broad deal that will give Marvel much more say in both X-men and FF while Fox will retain the ability to make money off the efforts. They may still be working on the details or they may have a complex agreement they haven't announced yet, but I think the relationship between Marvel and Fox is evolving and I think we'll see a much different rights situation in the coming years that will tie things together and not leave Fox as a completely independent entity. And I think Sony, Fox and Marvel will all begin moving forward with coordinated efforts that give Marvel much more control but allow Sony and Fox to continue to make money as partners.