The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 6

[Darepool]

After watching Dr. Strange and now seeing how it is performing at the BO, it is very telling and interesting to see it out performing X-Men. X-Men under Feige and co would be competing with Avengers at the BO IMO. FF would be competing with GoTG.

Under Fox X-Men competes against Marvel's lesser known characters that they are trying to bring to the mainstream and FF competes with Agents of Shield.



As someone who grew up not reading comics and not knowing what was what (i.e. I didn't even know Marvel owned X-Men despite having played Marvel vs Capcom lol), I can't agree with this list. These are the characters I did know and could recognize:

Fantastic Four (especially Thing and Reed Richards, but Johnny was also recognizable to me)
X-Men (main ones, i.e. Wolverine, Beast, Professor X, Cyclops, Jean, Rogue, Storm)
Spider Man
Hulk
Thor

Everyone else (including Ironman) on that list was unknown to me and I knew more about DC's characters, especially Batman and its lore and Superman.

I don't want to speak for Willie (or you) but I'm going to assume he's from a "more experienced" generation then you are Dollar. As Zarex mentioned, X-Men books were in reprints until the mid-seventies. The mutants didn't really become culturally iconic until the early eighties, when they pretty much surpassed everything minus Spider-Man.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I don't want to speak for Willie (or you) but I'm going to assume he's from a "more experienced" generation then you are Dollar. As Zarex mentioned, X-Men books were in reprints until the mid-seventies. The mutants didn't really become culturally iconic until the early eighties, when they pretty much surpassed everything minus Spider-Man.

Such a kind way to call me an old fart, but yeah, I'm talking about the '70s - before video games, before cable TV, before home video etc. when all we had for entertainment and escapism was comic books. And here's a sampling of images from that time that will give a good idea of what characters were popular (it's interesting looking at these that Daredevil and Conan get more face time than I would have thought - also Human Torch).

 

[Random490]

Which character "represents Marvel" depends much more on when you first get into the characters. 90's and 2000's had Spider-man and X-men as the flagship characters, in part by their tv shows and movies. Kids growing up now associate Avengers as the flagship Marvel brand. If you look at promotional images, video game cover, etc. you see who's front and center is based largely on what movie is doing well. Switching from Wolverine to Spider-man to Wolverine to Cap. Whoever currently holds the most public awareness has the most prominent promotion.

Also saw this on facebook and I had to share (Doctor Strange Spoilers):

Spoiler

Marvel's strategy with Fox

 

[Darkraid]

Who is the white guy with the axe? Never seen him before.

 

[Darepool]

Such a kind way to call me an old fart, but yeah, I'm talking about the '70s - before video games, before cable TV, before home video etc. when all we had for entertainment and escapism was comic books. And here's a sampling of images from that time that will give a good idea of what characters were popular (it's interesting looking at these that Daredevil and Conan get more face time than I would have thought - also Human Torch).

Thanks for posting I was born in '87 but I inherited a lot of my oldest brothers comics collection from the 70's, so I understand just how much the complexion of the MU has changed over the years in terms of what's "popular". It's also the main reason why I am such a big FF fan despite being a kid of the 90's.

 

[Darepool]

Which character "represents Marvel" depends much more on when you first get into the characters. 90's and 2000's had Spider-man and X-men as the flagship characters, in part by their tv shows and movies. Kids growing up now associate Avengers as the flagship Marvel brand. If you look at promotional images, video game cover, etc. you see who's front and center is based largely on what movie is doing well. Switching from Wolverine to Spider-man to Wolverine to Cap. Whoever currently holds the most public awareness has the most prominent promotion.

Spider-Man is the one constant through the years, from the early 60's all the way through to 2016. The money he generates per annum is untouchable by any character in comics. Marvel or DC.

 

[Spidey_62]

Who is the white guy with the axe? Never seen him before.

Conan the Barbarian, actually!

 

[Darkraid]

Conan the Barbarian, actually!

Conan is Marvel?

 

[Stark Bauer]

2 thoughts:

1. Marvels untitled films for 2020 - I think it is safe to predict that most likely they will be Doctor Strange 2, Spider-Man 2, and Black Panther 2...unless Sony is really doing their own scheduling, the middle title could be Marvel's Fantastic Four

2. Speaking of which, how likely would it be for Feige to pick up Brad Bird to do their Fantastic Four movie? I can't think of anyone else more perfect for this job and Bird has had a recent flip so he probably wants to come back with a vengeance.

 

[TheVileOne]

sure, they can build up lesser known characters, or even new characters in the comic books and trtanslate them to the big screen.
and it works very well with their heroes so far. lots of new heroes in the books that someday will get the MCU treatment.

but how many memorable villains were created the last decade? the last two decades? how many of them are comparable to Doom, Galactus, Kang, etc.?

And there will be a time post-Thanos. When the BBEG MS has built everything up to for three phases is defeatet. And there will be the need for a threat on almost the same level. And options are limited. (I can see Dormammu filling that void and I hope that's the plan but other than him? Graviton? Has yet to return to the MCU after a season 1 appearance on AoS. Ultron? Already been used. Atlez? I'm not sure MS has the rights to him, but even hardcore fans would scratch their head and ask: "who?" The Dweller in the Darkness? okay, that's a movie I'd love to watch. Let's settle on the Dweller)

MS might have no need for the First Family atm, even though I'd love to see them as part of that universe (and done right) as soon as possible. but their rogue gallery is something they need back very, very quickly.

They don't need it back quickly at all. Feige has said they have things planned out for quite some time. So I will let them worry about.

One villain I do like though is Magus. He's been around since the 1970s, but he's a pretty formidable foe.

 

[TheVileOne]

I agree they don't need FF, but I also think they would like to have the FF sooner rather than later.

Sure, they can develop minor characters, but that requires more effort than giving people characters they already want to see.

When Marvel makes Guardians of The Galaxy, people who don't know anything about GOTG show up because it's a Marvel film. But people also show up for characters they know (look at Fox's first FF film or recent DC efforts which have been savaged by reviewers but people show up because they know and like the characters).

So while Marvel can develop minor properties it's a lot better for them to have a one, two punch of Marvel plus known characters.

Also, Marvel is working toward creating a true Marvel universe. Their MCU will feel like a weak imitation of the Marvel universe fans know as long as Galactus, Silver Surfer, Dr. Doom and Reed Richards aren't part of it.

I doubt Disney or Kevin Feige or Marvel would agree with you right now. They can't proceed desperately hoping some FF deal is right around the corner. I get that you are really in love with the Fantastic Four and attached to those characters Willie. Regardless, they aren't in the cards right now. Marvel is doing fine without them and they've built a stable of beloved characters and made franchises out of lesser known properties that will last them a while. Plus they have Spider-Man in phase 3 now.

And lastly, Marvel has illustrated the wisdom of variety. When they were talking about introducing characters like Black Panther, Dr. Strange, Inhumans etc. part of me was thinking "Why Bother? Why not just make Thor 7, Iron Man 10, Captain America 9 etc.", but we can see now how vibrant and dynamic and interesting this universe is as they introduce new characters and mix and match those characters. And on the other side, we can see how stale the X-Men are getting as Fox continues to make the same film with the same characters over and over again.

Yeah but that wisdom and variety means movies for the likes of Guardians of the Galaxy, Doctor Strange, Black Panther, and Captain Marvel, characters who have never had big screen movies yet. It could mean maybe at some point there will be a Nova solo film. Or maybe in the future, they could do Spider-Woman or She-Hulk. Or even Namor or Thunderbolts for that matter. Those could all become major movie franchises for Marvel. And Marvel has now proven they can turn these lesser known properties into major blockbusters. That's a good reputation to have.

Fantastic Four and X-Men have already had a bunch of movies. They may not have been done the Marvel Studios way but they have been done. So that doesn't necessarily bring the variety to the table.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Conan is Marvel?

they had the licence

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

They can't proceed desperately hoping some FF deal is right around the corner.

I think this is a mischaracterization of what I'm saying. Let's put a number on it - $20 million.

I think Fox would be fools to not take a $20 million check now rather than waiting 6 years and getting nothing.

And I think Marvel would be fools to not offer $20 million to lock the rights down now and be sure Fox won't screw them.

I suspect the reason they haven't done such a simple deal is both sides are trying to package rights and merchandising and other things. Marvel probably thinks they can give something that won't cost them anything and could actually benefit them (let's say a deal that allows X-Men Merchandise based on Fox film designs and gives Fox a small cut as one example).

If it becomes clear that both sides won't be able to come together on that, they should do a cash deal, but I suspect they're tied up in much more complicated discussions - including a possible Sony-type deal and the details of that.

But I don't think there's desperation on either side.

 

[Joe Rockhead]

Such a kind way to call me an old fart, but yeah, I'm talking about the '70s - before video games, before cable TV, before home video etc. when all we had for entertainment and escapism was comic books. And here's a sampling of images from that time that will give a good idea of what characters were popular (it's interesting looking at these that Daredevil and Conan get more face time than I would have thought - also Human Torch).

Conan was HUGE in the 70's -- so was the introduction of Red Sonja.
My dad was a big fan of the genre. I'm sure what helped that along was the art by John Buscema and Frank Thorne.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Conan was HUGE in the 70's -- so was the introduction of Red Sonja.
My dad was a big fan of the genre. I'm sure what helped that along was the art by John Buscema and Frank Thorne.

I remember that when I saw the Arnold S. Conan movies I thought of them as Marvel films since I knew Marvel did the comic books. But I never read the comic books and I never really associated Conan with the other Marvel superheroes who had super-powers and wore costumes and interacted in the modern world.

Conan was probably very lucrative for Marvel in the '70s, but it was always sort of its own thing.

 

[Stark Bauer]

I think this is a mischaracterization of what I'm saying. Let's put a number on it - $20 million.

I think Fox would be fools to not take a $20 million check now rather than waiting 6 years and getting nothing.

And I think Marvel would be fools to not offer $20 million to lock the rights down now and be sure Fox won't screw them.

I suspect the reason they haven't done such a simple deal is both sides are trying to package rights and merchandising and other things. Marvel probably thinks they can give something that won't cost them anything and could actually benefit them (let's say a deal that allows X-Men Merchandise based on Fox film designs and gives Fox a small cut as one example).

If it becomes clear that both sides won't be able to come together on that, they should do a cash deal, but I suspect they're tied up in much more complicated discussions - including a possible Sony-type deal and the details of that.

But I don't think there's desperation on either side.

True. I can see them doing a Spidey type deal for Fantastic Four to be in Inifinty War 2...or a deal for Silver Surfer and specific characters like Galactus Doctor Doom etc or simply wait for the rights to expire since they have until 2022 anyway

 

[TheVileOne]

I remember that when I saw the Arnold S. Conan movies I thought of them as Marvel films since I knew Marvel did the comic books. But I never read the comic books and I never really associated Conan with the other Marvel superheroes who had super-powers and wore costumes and interacted in the modern world.

Conan was probably very lucrative for Marvel in the '70s, but it was always sort of its own thing.

Yeah but Marvel didn't have to pay anything to get the rights back for Daredevil, Elektra, and Kingpin, a brand that was severely damaged by Fox.

The brand is severely damaged goods right now, so I doubt Disney is eager to shell out a pot of gold for them when the rights would revert back to them anyway if Fox never makes another movie.

 

[Dasher10]

Yeah but Marvel didn't have to pay anything to get the rights back for Daredevil, Elektra, and Kingpin, a brand that was severely damaged by Fox.

The brand is severely damaged goods right now, so I doubt Disney is eager to shell out a pot of gold for them when the rights would revert back to them anyway if Fox never makes another movie.

The counterpoint is that Marvel managed to fix the Daredevil brand.

 

[TheVileOne]

The counterpoint is that Marvel managed to fix the Daredevil brand.

Exactly. They fixed it without having to bargain and make a deal with Fox to get it back.

However, they fixed it with a TV show. They couldn't really do another movie again. Daredevil had been made less viable as a film franchise due to Fox.

 

[Stark Bauer]

Could Fantastic Four be done as a Netflix series? I mean logistically yes but special effects wise it might suffer (won't look as good as it should) without the adequate budget.

 

[Spidey_62]

Could Fantastic Four be done as a Netflix series? I mean logistically yes but special effects wise it might suffer (won't look as good as it should) without the adequate budget.

Fantastic Four is definitely one of those properties that would be pretty served as a movie that can go all out rather than a television series. Funny how the Tim Story film felt like a sitcom.

 

[Darepool]

You have to think Guardians of the Galaxy in terms of scope and ambition for the FF. That's what is required. The budget for that was over 220m. I would love Lord & Miller to do a FF film.

 

[Spiderine]

Exactly. They fixed it without having to bargain and make a deal with Fox to get it back.

However, they fixed it with a TV show. They couldn't really do another movie again. Daredevil had been made less viable as a film franchise due to Fox.

Sometimes the real value lies with the supporting characters under the brand's umbrella. There are some major aspects that could prove instrumental moving forward beyond phase 3 that Marvel would like to set up immediately after Avengers 4- Wrath of Thanos. There are other directions they could go in but I bet they would like to exploit what the FF property has to offer when they have to increase the stakes. All depends on the direction they want to take the MCU. Otherwise they have to wait till 2022/2023 to even start a mention. Its not just about the FF themselves.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

Yeah it's definitely just as much about Doom, Galactus, the Surfer and other heralds, Kang, the remaining Skrull characters such as Super Skrull and Paibok, Annihilus and the Negative Zone, Molecule Man, the Badoon, a whole bunch of other Alien races, etc. than it is about the Four themselves.

 

[Dark Raven]

Such a kind way to call me an old fart, but yeah, I'm talking about the '70s - before video games, before cable TV, before home video etc. when all we had for entertainment and escapism was comic books. And here's a sampling of images from that time that will give a good idea of what characters were popular (it's interesting looking at these that Daredevil and Conan get more face time than I would have thought - also Human Torch).

Not much of Iron Man in there in those adverts at all. But I know he was semi popular at the time.

In the 80s, the likes of Iron Man, Spider-Woman and She-Hulk were in there, as well as Power Man and Iron Fist.