The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 6

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If you want to believe that Disney (DISNEY!) handed over additional IP rights to a competitor, strengthening that studio's hold over Disney owned characters and increasing competition in a crowded marketplace for comic book programming, all in exchange for a minority stake in "Legion" and the proposed Mutant on the Run show, feel free to do so.

There's no evidence otherwise. There's also no proof that Disney's stake in Legion is a minority, since it's a Marvel Studios co-production.

Everyone posting on the Hype is looking at issues from their own personal and biased perspective. And few folks on this thread believes that FOX execs are perfectly logical and smart people, not after last summer's FFINO debacle. What many of us DO believe is that the studio is out of options regarding the FF franchise.

FOX can't put out a sequel or remake FFINO within the reversion period without committing to absorbing another 8 figure loss. They can't do another cheaply made, star free origin story, and the BO results from the last one doesn't justify the investment required to get the franchise on track. So what do they do?

FOX has the following options: A) Wait out the reversion period and let Marvel have the FF live action rights for nothing or B) Get something now for an early rights release and wave the middle finger at a franchise that hasn't earned you a dime in over a decade. Given that we know Marvel and FOX have already reached an agreement that appears to skew heavily in the favor of the Murdochs' company.......well, it ain't exactly a logical leap to suggest a deal has already been made.

Once again people are just speculating this to be true because they want to believe it's true. There's no proof or evidence or facts to the contrary.
 
There's no evidence otherwise. There's also no proof that Disney's stake in Legion is a minority, since it's a Marvel Studios co-production.

There's been no studio announcement, but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.......

Since FX is handling the physical production and it's airing on the FX Network I am comfortable assuming that the Murdochs will see the bulk of the profits.

Feel free to hold your position, but realize that you're going against the guy who made the following predictions on the "6 Predictions Relating to 2015" thread way back in December:

1) Deadpool outperforms studio expectations. A sequel, "Deadpool and X-Force" is put on the schedule.

2) Superman v Batman has a big opening but a huge drop off in the following week. It finishes its BO run at under $1 billion.

3) CW outperforms its predecessor but is not as highly regarded as WS. Spider-man and Ant Man steal the show.

4) Apocalypse experiences a drop off from its predecessor. FOX seriously considers moving forward with a present day X-Men universe centered around Deadpool, X-Force and New Mutants.

5) Suicide Squad out performs expectations, leading WB to strongly consider dropping its Flash, Aquaman and Cyborg solo features in favor of less expensive films involving its roster of rogues.

6) Feige reveals that the rights to the FF character family reside with Marvel.



Once again people are just speculating this to be true because they want to believe it's true. There's no proof or evidence or facts to the contrary.

If you can come up with a scenario by which FOX does a sequel or reboots the FF franchise within the next 7 years without losing tens of millions of dollars I would love to hear it. I'm thinking maybe you don't want it to be true?
 
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There's been no studio announcement, but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.......

Since FX is handling the physical production and it's airing on the FX Network I am comfortable assuming that the Murdochs will see the bulk of the profits.

Feel free to hold your position, but realize that you're going against the guy who made the following predictions on the "6 Predictions Relating to 2015" thread way back in December:

1) Deadpool outperforms studio expectations. A sequel, "Deadpool and X-Force" is put on the schedule.

2) Superman v Batman has a big opening but a huge drop off in the following week. It finishes its BO run at under $1 billion.

3) CW outperforms its predecessor but is not as highly regarded as WS. Spider-man and Ant Man steal the show.

4) Apocalypse experiences a drop off from its predecessor. FOX seriously considers moving forward with a present day X-Men universe centered around Deadpool, X-Force and New Mutants.

5) Suicide Squad out performs expectations, leading WB to strongly consider dropping its Flash, Aquaman and Cyborg solo features in favor of less expensive films involving its roster of rogues.

6) Feige reveals that the rights to the FF character family reside with Marvel.


Numbers Four and Five and yet to come to fruition.

Saying Deadpool would be a hit wasn't exactly a bold prediction either.
 
Zarex and Willie, you are correct. Vile One, you are not.

Fox is out of options and we're getting the F4 in the MCU. I'd bet on it
 
Numbers Four and Five and yet to come to fruition.

Saying Deadpool would be a hit wasn't exactly a bold prediction either.

The first half of both number 4 and 5 absolutely turned out to be correct. And I never said the Deadpool prediction was bold, just accurate.

Again, feel free to present your FOX reboot scenario at any time. It's awfully easy to poo poo the work of other posters on this board, but I think we would all get more out of this back and forth if you would actually put in a little effort.
 
Again, feel free to present your FOX reboot scenario at any time.

This is the part that's funny to imagine. I would love to be a fly on the wall when the Fox exec. walks into the meeting to propose a new FF film.

Okay, first let's look at how the previous three films have done. Here's a chart showing the worldwide box office numbers for each of the three films charted chronologically:

chart.jpg


That's pretty impressive and I assume most of you are ready to green-light just based on that, but let's also look at how our stock did in the beginning of August, 2015 when the last film came out:

1a_4.jpg


But these are just numbers. They don't show the real intangibles - like the absolute hatred fans feel for us and how angrily they would react to a new film.

And we should also keep in mind these glowing words from our CEO, Rupert Murdoch: “Our quarterly results also reflect the expected impact of challenging comparisons for our film studio due to the timing of key releases, as well as the poor performance of ‘The Fantastic Four',"

With all these things going for us, I'm sure none of you will object to green-lighting another film, but I guess we should go through the formality of voting anyway. All in favor?
 
I always like to think of the two groups of managers at Fox with Group A being the ones that argued to go ahead with FF and Group B being the ones who argued against it.

After we saw the results, I have to imagine some of the people in Group A got fired and the ones who are left should be smart enough to not stick their neck out to argue for another film (and remind people how wrong they were the last time).

With Group A likely losing power and influence because of their failure and Group B gaining, the interest in repeating the mistakes of the past have to be dwindling.
 
Rupert named F4 by name as one of the main reason for them losing money. By name! If that doesn't say that F4 is done at Fox, nothing will. I know some people just like to argue for the sake of it(won't say any names)but come on......it's going back to Disney if it hasn't already. I honestly think we will see them in IF2 as the new lineup when the original Avengers are not there any more.
 
I always like to think of the two groups of managers at Fox with Group A being the ones that argued to go ahead with FF and Group B being the ones who argued against it.

After we saw the results, I have to imagine some of the people in Group A got fired and the ones who are left should be smart enough to not stick their neck out to argue for another film (and remind people how wrong they were the last time).

With Group A likely losing power and influence because of their failure and Group B gaining, the interest in repeating the mistakes of the past have to be dwindling.

I think Group B have been waiting to move up into Group A so that they can get a chance to repeat the mistakes of the previous Group A. They want their own shot at it and when the former Group C, who are now Group B argue against the new FFINO reboot, the new Group A will dismiss them. Then for the next go round the former Group D who had moved into Group C while the previous Group C had moved to B will be waiting in line while the previous Group B moves up to Group A.
 
There are no guarantees in this crazy business we call show, but here's a timeline the "FOX is totes going to reboot the FF!" crowd should keep in mind:


8/31/09 - Disney buys Marvel. Marvel exits most of their non-publishing X-Men efforts after this transaction. Look at the 500 plus page "The Complex" thread on Comic Book Resources for a full accounting of Disney/Marvel's "sins".

8/31/09 - FOX announces a reboot of the FF franchise

8/6/12 -Variety reports that Marvel attempted to acquire the live action rights to FF characters, including Galactus and the Silver Surfer, in exchange for an extension of the DD film rights

5/29/14 - Bleeding Cool reports that Marvel will cancel the FF comics. Later reports are that the removal of the FF from licensing efforts came about due to failed reversion negotiations involving Ike Perlmutter.

8/26/14 - Bleeding Cool reports that FOX is developing an X-Men TV series.

1/26/15 - FOX Chairman Gary Newman confirms that negotiations are taking place with Marvel regarding an X-Men TV show.

8/6/15 - FOX TV Group and Chairman and CEO, Dana Walden, announces that FOX is nearing a deal with Marvel for a live action X-Men TV series.

8/7/15 - FFINO is released and sets a new low in the golden age of comic book movies as a complete and total critical and BO failure.

10/14/15 - Marvel and FOX jointly announce that a deal has been reached to develop programs titled "Hellfire" and "Legion" to air on FOX and FX, respectively.

11/23/15 - the FFINO sequel is removed from the FOX release schedule.
 
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There are no guarantees in this crazy business we call show, but here's a timeline the "FOX is totes going to reboot the FF!" crowd should keep in mind:


8/31/2009 - Disney buys Marvel. Marvel exits most of their non-publishing X-Men efforts after this transaction. Look at the 500 plus page "The Complex" thread on Comic Book Resources for a full accounting of Disney/Marvel's "sins".

8/31/2009 - FOX announces a reboot of the FF franchise

8/6/2012 -Variety reports that Marvel attempted to acquire the live action rights to FF characters, including Galactus and the Silver Surfer, inc in exchange for an extension of the DD film rights

5/29/2014 - Bleeding Cool reports that Marvel will cancel the FF comics. Later reports are that the removal of the FF from licensing efforts came about due to failed reversion negotiations involving Ike Perlmutter.

8/26/14 - Bleeding Cool reports that FOX is developing an X-Men TV series.

1/26/2015 - FOX Chairman Gary Newman confirms that negotiations are taking place with Marvel regarding an X-Men TV show.

8/6/16 - FOX TV Group and Chairman and CEO, Dana Walden, announces that FOX is nearing a deal with Marvel for a live action X-Men TV series.

8/7/2015 - FFINO is released and sets a new low in the golden age of comic book movies as a complete and total critical and BO failure.

10/14/15 - Marvel and FOX jointly announce that a deal has been reached to develop programs titled "Hellfire" and "Legion" to air on FOX and FX, respectively.

11/23/2015 - the FFINO sequel is removed from the FOX release schedule.

:up: I would also add the August 31, 2015 announcement of the management shake-up that took took away Ike Perlmutter's film oversight. (you've also got a typo listng 8/6/15 as 8/6/16).

I don't think there's any question that something major happened between Fox and Marvel in the Fall of 2015 and the exact nature of what happened hasn't yet been disclosed. And whatever happened almost certainly impacted FF and likely opened a door for Marvel involvement in the FF in some form in the future.
 
Here is the problem. You guys are all looking at this from your own personal and biased perspective.

You guys make it sound like you want to believe these studio executives are all perfectly logical and smart people who will simply figure out a deal with Marvel Studios just because Sony and Marvel and Disney were able to work out a deal. But you are still talking about the same studio that produced and released Fant4stic.

Just because we have this perception of Fox getting beaten down over the last Fantastic Four movie doesn't mean things are going to automatically change now how we want them.
No, people are looking at it from a box-office perspective, it just so happens to fit well with some of our personal objectives. Help me understand what yours are in this thread exactly?
 
I always like to think of the two groups of managers at Fox with Group A being the ones that argued to go ahead with FF and Group B being the ones who argued against it.

After we saw the results, I have to imagine some of the people in Group A got fired and the ones who are left should be smart enough to not stick their neck out to argue for another film (and remind people how wrong they were the last time).

With Group A likely losing power and influence because of their failure and Group B gaining, the interest in repeating the mistakes of the past have to be dwindling.

Hmm...maybe not blatantly fired but part of that lot that was let go back in April so not to cause too much of a fuss maybe? Sure it's speculation but how it works out makes sense especially with news of Gianopulos leaving early (due to 4 disappointing films in a row?). In any case I like where this post is headed as far as remaining Fox staff being less likely to entertain another F4 w/o Marvel's help. Although the main snake (Kinberg) still manages to slither around thanks to films like The Martian and Deadpool which he had a producer credit on but really provided any real use with those properties. Otherwise I'd like to think that it would've shown in the disappointing XM:A.
 
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I would add to that timeline the "Comic Cold War" that Marvel fought (or fights?) boycotting/downplaying FF/X-Men in comics

Some events, not sure if the dates are correct

May 2014 - Cancellation of FF (already in the timeline)

* Around this time, the Inhumans movie was announced

October 2014: Marvel 75th anniversary special on ABC downplays (or ignores, I'm not sure) FF and X-Men

November 2014: The Punisher kills the Fant4astic cast :hehe: (Punisher #12)

May 2015: Marvel 2015 line up poster ignores the X-Men and Fantastic Four (Wolverine and FF used to be front and center)

May 2015: Secret Wars prominently features FF and Doom (storyline probably written years before)

July 2015: All-New X-Men Vol 2, Uncanny X-Men Vol 4, Extraordinary X-Men announced

September 2015: Marvel seems to be pushing the Inhumans (upcoming movie and AoS arc at the moment) as alternative to X-Men (in a very subtle way, the terrigen mist are toxic to mutants now).

* April 2016: Inhumans movie pulled from schedule

July 2016 Inhumans vs X-Men announced

The X-Men shake ups are not as terrible as they might seem (nowhere near the FF) but it's a big brand of Marvel so any hint at downplaying them is a red flag
 
Folks over on the X-Men boards and "The Complex" had been complaining for years about Marvel attempting to kill the X-Men franchise by keeping the team out of animation, clothing, video games, lunch boxes, etc. Whether Marvel did it maliciously or it was simply due to good business practices there is no debating the fact that Disney/Marvel had in large part exited the X-Men business.

Now after willingly leaving money on the table for years we find out that Marvel is getting back into the X-Men game in a major way with at least two Marvel branded television programs. And a few diehards believe Disney/Marvel is pulling a 180 in regards to how they treat their mutants solely to get some of that sweet, sweet Legion money.
 
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Hmm...maybe not blatantly fired but part of that lot that was let go back in April so not to cause too much of a fuss maybe? Sure it's speculation but how it works out makes sense especially with news of Gianopulos leaving early (due to 4 disappointing films in a row?). In any case I like where this is post is headed as far as remaining Fox staff being less likely to entertain another F4 w/o Marvel's help. Although the main snake (Kinberg) still manages to slither around thanks to films like The Martian and Deadpool which he had a producer credit on but really provided any real use with those properties. Otherwise I'd like to think that it would've shown in the disappointing XM:A.

Some of this probably goes back to discussions some of us had before you were here, but leading up to the actual start of production, there were rumors that (as difficulties with the director and script seemed apparent) some within Fox wanted to scrap the whole thing (Group B) while others argued for pushing ahead (Group A).

Then keeping in mind that there were different factions within Fox that wanted different things (as opposed to the general idea that "Fox Management" thinks and acts with one mind) it was interesting to think about what kind of arguments and battles were happening behind the scenes.

As production problems caused budget issues and forced them to throw more money at things just to get something into the theaters (as opposed to having a film that was actually good) those Group B people who had not wanted to green-light it to start with and who had wanted to put the brakes on when things weren't looking good likely felt a sense of secret glee (though publicly they had to all present the pretense that they were all rowing in the same direction and trying to make the best out of the situation for the good of the company).

As the Group A people needed to try to get as much money as they could to try to salvage the film, the Group B people could argue "Do we really want to throw good money after bad?" and in holding back could ensure the film would be an absolute mess and give them the opportunity to say: "I told you so."

And when the dust had settled, the Group B people would have seemed wise while the Group A people would be seen as the people who had forced that mess through and had asked for more money throughout to ensure it wouldn't just be a failure, but an epic failure.

While the actual firings might have been few, the people in Group B would have come out of the whole thing looking like the smart ones and the Group A people would have been the ones who caused the whole mess, so the Group B people should have gained favor and influence with the higher ups while the Group A people probably spent a lot of time hiding in their offices and waiting for things to blow over.

And now that we're were we currently are, the Group B people who have more say are likely less interested in making a new FF film than they ever were, and the Group A people might like a chance to redeem themselves . . . but they're probably not willing to risk what's left of their jobs to do that.

So I can't imagine anybody within Fox management (from either faction) pushing for another FF film.
 
There are no guarantees in this crazy business we call show, but here's a timeline the "FOX is totes going to reboot the FF!" crowd should keep in mind:


8/31/09 - Disney buys Marvel. Marvel exits most of their non-publishing X-Men efforts after this transaction. Look at the 500 plus page "The Complex" thread on Comic Book Resources for a full accounting of Disney/Marvel's "sins".

8/31/09 - FOX announces a reboot of the FF franchise

8/6/12 -Variety reports that Marvel attempted to acquire the live action rights to FF characters, including Galactus and the Silver Surfer, in exchange for an extension of the DD film rights

5/29/14 - Bleeding Cool reports that Marvel will cancel the FF comics. Later reports are that the removal of the FF from licensing efforts came about due to failed reversion negotiations involving Ike Perlmutter.

8/26/14 - Bleeding Cool reports that FOX is developing an X-Men TV series.

1/26/15 - FOX Chairman Gary Newman confirms that negotiations are taking place with Marvel regarding an X-Men TV show.

8/6/15 - FOX TV Group and Chairman and CEO, Dana Walden, announces that FOX is nearing a deal with Marvel for a live action X-Men TV series.

8/7/15 - FFINO is released and sets a new low in the golden age of comic book movies as a complete and total critical and BO failure.

10/14/15 - Marvel and FOX jointly announce that a deal has been reached to develop programs titled "Hellfire" and "Legion" to air on FOX and FX, respectively.

11/23/15 - the FFINO sequel is removed from the FOX release schedule.

Don't forget around the same time the X-men tv show was announced, Inhumans was removed from the Marvel movie slate and replaced by an unknown property.
 
Don't forget around the same time the X-men tv show was announced, Inhumans was removed from the Marvel movie slate and replaced by an unknown property.

Was it replaced? Or was it completely removed from that date? I thought it was because of Indy 5.
 
:up: I would also add the August 31, 2015 announcement of the management shake-up that took took away Ike Perlmutter's film oversight. (you've also got a typo listng 8/6/15 as 8/6/16).

I don't think there's any question that something major happened between Fox and Marvel in the Fall of 2015 and the exact nature of what happened hasn't yet been disclosed. And whatever happened almost certainly impacted FF and likely opened a door for Marvel involvement in the FF in some form in the future.

It must really be painful for FOX to know there are literally so many fans rooting for the return of Marvel's first family back into the fold and when the day comes that a possible announcement gets made or there is a leak that it will happen may even shut the internet down.

There is just no way anybody could ever put a positive spin on FOX doing anything with this property that will generate any interests or excitement that doesn't involve Marvel in a MAJOR capacity.
 
It must really be painful for FOX to know there are literally so many fans rooting for the return of Marvel's first family back into the fold and when the day comes that a possible announcement gets made or there is a leak that it will happen may even shut the internet down.

There is just no way anybody could ever put a positive spin on FOX doing anything with this property that will generate any interests or excitement that doesn't involve Marvel in a MAJOR capacity.

I promise you that if Fox announces another film (without Marvel) I'm going to troll every site that mentions it in any way and unload vitriol that I doubt Fox can even imagine.:argh:
 
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