The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 7

[TheVileOne]

I don't think a TV series is going to happen for a long time.

 

[Xeno]

I will tell you what could change. An 8 episode origin story on Netflix or ABC/Imax (since no one wants yet another spiderman origin story movie).

Homecoming is bypassing Peter's origin so that point is already moot. Marvel will never do a live action Spider-Man tv show because that would cheapen the character. He is still the most popular superhero in the world. The best use of him is in the cinematic universe.

 

[Dark Raven]

I hope, if Marvel do get the rights back to FF eventually, they don't just make the same movie that Trank and Fox did with FFINO but this time, because it's the Marvel brand, it somehow is extremely successful because of all the goodwill. That movie is still crap whoever made it.

 

[GeckoMoria]

That goodwill exists because Marvel is doing the opposite of what Fox has been doing all those years. Updating the source material while also respecting it. People don't turn a blind eye on Marvel's mistakes. In fact they occasionally blow them out of proportion "cough MCU villains suck cough" because there aren't really many weak aspects in the MCU as a whole.

If Marvel had gotten the F4 rights back you would see a good film that respects the legacy, keeps the chracerisation intact, puts the characters in updated yet recognizable costumes and will happen a tone tat fits the property.

How do i know? Because that's what the MCU has been doing for almost a decade...

 

[NotNickFury]

Again, and I know many have said this before, but I think it's less that the MCU's villains are weak and more that they're just not memorable. Same could apply for any other superhero franchise, but for a series that does a lot of things right, having lackluster villains sticks out, as you want a villain who is interesting to watch, you get their motivation, and they leave a lasting impression- as we've seen with the Netflix MCU villains.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I doubt we'll see a Spidey TV show under any circumstances. The biggest problem I see now with Spider-man is over-exposure.

In fact, I've been wondering if this next film could have some real problems. For people like us, we're interested in how the Marvel connection will work and all the little details.

But the biggest headwinds Homecoming will face will likely be from casual fans who were turned off by AMSM2 and not all that anxious to see another Spidey film.

 

[Dark Raven]

Star Wars have managed, on the whole, to have fairly memorable villains within the space of two hours rather than requiring a whole series for them to develop. If Marvel had Doom, I'd want him to be as intimidating and iconic as Darth Vader. In fact, I'd like more of Marvel's villains to be that way. I'd certainly like them more colourful.

Even Bond villains of old, who didn't even have too much of a role, were memorable. Think of someone like Oddjob. He didn't have any lines, yet everyone remembers him for his "power" set, with his deadly bowler hat and his strength. Or what about Jaws? He didn't exactly say much either, but people remember him for his steel teeth and seeming ability to cheat death (is he dead in real life now, btw?). We ought to have some villains like that, even some who won't carry a whole movie but could be henchmen or just temporary villains for the hero to fight. Instead, many of the Marvel villains are often dressed just casually and look relatively normal, and don't really stand out.

 

[Dark Raven]

I doubt we'll see a Spidey TV show under any circumstances. The biggest problem I see now with Spider-man is over-exposure.

In fact, I've been wondering if this next film could have some real problems. For people like us, we're interested in how the Marvel connection will work and all the little details.

But the biggest headwinds Homecoming will face will likely be from casual fans who were turned off by AMSM2 and not all that anxious to see another Spidey film.

Well Spider-Man Homecoming seems to be taking liberties with the source material and changing things around almost for the sake of changing them, sometimes feeling not far different from Fant4stic. If it had been Fox (or Sony) making all these changes, fans would've cried foul long ago, but at the moment many fans seem to give Marvel the benefit of the doubt just because of the goodwill they have.

But looking at Homecoming as a movie in itself, there are many questionable decisions that have been made. I'm not really feeling that enthusiastic about it at the moment, whereas I did before it went into production and found out about all these changes. Now it feels like just another Spider-Man to have to sit through, whereas before it felt like something potentially fresh, the way you'd hope we might feel if Marvel got back the FF and were about to make their own movie where you'd expect to see the most faithful version yet.

If Marvel got back FF and Doom feels even more removed from the comic, just because Fox have already sort of dabbled with the iconic costume, for example, or if the FF team are even more different than before just because Tim Story touched on certain things, then you'd have to wonder what's the difference between one studio having the rights and another, if the end result might not be that different.

I am hopeful that Marvel will do a better job with FF than Fox, but who knows if they deliberately go in a different direction again and not make it more faithful to the comic as we'd expect. I would hope that Marvel heed their own "Imaginauts" story and see that the way FF would really appeal to modern audiences is to make them more classic, not vastly update or change them.

 

[wobbly]

Well Spider-Man Homecoming seems to be taking liberties with the source material and changing things around almost for the sake of changing them, sometimes feeling not far different from Fant4stic. If it had been Fox (or Sony) making all these changes, fans would've cried foul long ago, but at the moment many fans seem to give Marvel the benefit of the doubt just because of the goodwill they have.

But looking at Homecoming as a movie in itself, there are many questionable decisions that have been made. I'm not really feeling that enthusiastic about it at the moment, whereas I did before it went into production and found out about all these changes. Now it feels like just another Spider-Man to have to sit through, whereas before it felt like something potentially fresh, the way you'd hope we might feel if Marvel got back the FF and were about to make their own movie where you'd expect to see the most faithful version yet.

If Marvel got back FF and Doom feels even more removed from the comic, just because Fox have already sort of dabbled with the iconic costume, for example, or if the FF team are even more different than before just because Tim Story touched on certain things, then you'd have to wonder what's the difference between one studio having the rights and another, if the end result might not be that different.

I am hopeful that Marvel will do a better job with FF than Fox, but who knows if they deliberately go in a different direction again and not make it more faithful to the comic as we'd expect. I would hope that Marvel heed their own "Imaginauts" story and see that the way FF would really appeal to modern audiences is to make them more classic, not vastly update or change them.

I think a lot the choices with Homecoming come down to the Raimi and Webb films having covered the same ground with elements from both 616 and Ultimate. Old Aunt may, a younger Aunt may, genetically engineered Spider, Harry, Gwen, Mary Jane, the perfect JJJ, a bully Jock Flash etc. All done in previous versions, and all in recent memory.

That's not to say I'm on board with the obvious Hi-jacking of Miles Morales elements for Homecoming. I understand why they have gone for that (this version will be more different than the previous films as a result) but I also don't think it was necessary to go that far. Hopefully as the films progress they will bring him more back in line with his 616 roots.

As far as the FF goes I think Story's efforts and Trank's FFINO have in their own unfortunate way cleared the path for Marvel to go far more 616 all round. A classic non powered Doom who isn't involved in the FF's origin at all for one, would actually be something not done yet on film. A more comic faithful appearance for the Thing is another. A younger johnny Storm etc.

So if Marvel do get them back I would not be as forgiving for moving away from that as I am with them doing these changes for Spider-Man, as there would be no excuse for it imo.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Star Wars have managed, on the whole, to have fairly memorable villains within the space of two hours rather than requiring a whole series for them to develop. If Marvel had Doom, I'd want him to be as intimidating and iconic as Darth Vader. In fact, I'd like more of Marvel's villains to be that way. I'd certainly like them more colourful.

Yeah, when it comes to villains, I think less is more. When Darth Vader strolls into his first scene in Star Wars, he's partly intimidating because of how little we know about him. He's just an ominous, threatening figure.

The problem with Marvel's villains is they let them talk too much and the more they talk and the more we know about them, the less threatening they become.

I sometimes imagine how the first FF film would feel if somebody simply edited out all of Doom's dialogue after he puts the mask on (anybody want to try? t: ). I think if you take away all the dialogue and quips, he may not be transformed to Doom, but he would have been a hell of a lot more intimidating and creepy.

And that was a big problem with Ultron. He talked too much. We knew too much about him. He should have been cold and emotionless and that lack of humanity should have made him intimidating and creepy - but they made him almost human.

 

[Dark Raven]

Yeah, when it comes to villains, I think less is more. When Darth Vader strolls into his first scene in Star Wars, he's partly intimidating because of how little we know about him. He's just an ominous, threatening figure.

The problem with Marvel's villains is they let them talk too much and the more they talk and the more we know about them, the less threatening they become.

I sometimes imagine how the first FF film would feel if somebody simply edited out all of Doom's dialogue after he puts the mask on (anybody want to try? t: ). I think if you take away all the dialogue and quips, he may not be transformed to Doom, but he would have been a hell of a lot more intimidating and creepy.

And that was a big problem with Ultron. He talked too much. We knew too much about him. He should have been cold and emotionless and that lack of humanity should have made him intimidating and creepy - but they made him almost human.

Instead of that, someone ought to do the opposite and edit Star Wars so that Darth Vader has more dialogue. Give him Doom's dialogue from both the Story and Trank movies. Make Darth Vader say "Marco Polo" or "Let's not fight" instead of "I am your father". Let Darth Vader get drunk and want to go back home to his planet. Someone edit a trash bag onto Darth Vader's black uniform.

Then defenders can just call it Ultimate Darth Vader and go to see the movie ten times!

 

[Zarex]

I thought Whedon did a decent job with Ultron's personality. A cold, unemotional Ultron would have been interesting, but it wouldn't have been very comic accurate. I would have preferred him to be much more formidable in battle. He usually can handle a standard Avengers squad solo. And eliminate the tissue-bots.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I thought Whedon did a decent job with Ultron's personality. A cold, unemotional Ultron would have been interesting, but it wouldn't have been very comic accurate. I would have preferred him to be much more formidable in battle. He usually can handle a standard Avengers squad solo. And eliminate the tissue-bots.

This may be a controversial opinion, but when it comes to "comic accurate" vs "intimidating villain", I'd make the villains more intimidating even if it makes them less comic accurate. If I were writing Doom, I would definitely make him a little less chatty than he is in the comics.

I remember in the '70s when my brother was a big DC fan and I was a Marvel fan, one of the big reasons I preferred Marvel was the DC villains were pretty goofy and stupid. They've done a good job of making some of those classic villains work better in recent films and comics (Batman in particular), but some of those DC villains were pretty stupid in some of those '70s comics.

I definitely agree that it was a poor choice to make Ultron so weak while creating multiple versions. That failed on many levels and could have been a far better film with a very strong Ultron (with maybe a few weaker flunkies).

 

[Zarex]

I would have liked fewer extremely powerful Ultrons, who each would have been a match for multiple Avengers. And why create clones when Ultrons come in so many varieties? I would have enjoyed seeing the half-humanoid Ultron 6 and the massive Ultron 7 onscreen.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I would have liked fewer extremely powerful Ultrons, who each would have been a match for multiple Avengers. And why create clones when Ultrons come in so many varieties? I would have enjoyed seeing the half-humanoid Ultron 6 and the massive Ultron 7 onscreen.

Ultron was one of the biggest disappointments to me of all the Marvel villains because he had so much potential.

 

[NotNickFury]

So do you all feel Ultron might have fared better under a different writer/director? I didn't mind Ultron, but then, I don't know his comic history. At the same time, he did feel very Whedon-like with the dialogue, particularly stuff like "I'm glad you asked that because I wanted to take this time to explain my evil plan." That felt very Whedon-esque compared to Loki who, for the most part, came off just as he did in Thor.

Not that Whedon putting his spin on Ultron is a bad thing, but considering how many say Ultron wasn't as menacing as he could have been makes me wonder how he could've come off with a different writer.

 

[First Avenger]

Age of Ultron is one of my favourite superhero movies, but I agree that Ultron creating fewer powerful versions of himself would have been better than the army we got in the movie. I liked what Joss did with him but it's clear that it wasn't the version fans wanted. On the other hand it's easy to bring him back and make him closer to the comics.

 

[Dark Raven]

I didn't like that Ultron lost his iconic mouth and Jack O' Lantern-like features. I didn't care to see his lips moving and for him too emote too much.

And it just felt like we were watching Raymond Reddington half the time. He acted just the same as there, and sounded just the same. Not even a more electronic voice.

 

[Zarex]

Yeah, Ultron definitely did not require lips. Darth Vader worked out ok without visible facial features.

 

[Dark Raven]

Darth Vader also had a more electronic voice. And that voice is now iconic with the breathiness. Ultron could've had an iconic voice instead of just sounding like he is in the Blacklist. I was expecting him to wear a black coat and hat.

Whedon just wanted to put his own spin on it, but it's not like it was better than what the comics is.

 

[Zarex]

So do you all feel Ultron might have fared better under a different writer/director? I didn't mind Ultron, but then, I don't know his comic history. At the same time, he did feel very Whedon-like with the dialogue, particularly stuff like "I'm glad you asked that because I wanted to take this time to explain my evil plan." That felt very Whedon-esque compared to Loki who, for the most part, came off just as he did in Thor.

Not that Whedon putting his spin on Ultron is a bad thing, but considering how many say Ultron wasn't as menacing as he could have been makes me wonder how he could've come off with a different writer.

The major change Whedon made is that his version wanted to become human while the comic version wants to replace them. And, not a shocker, but the print version isn't paricularly quippy. I was ok with his version wanting to be a real boy, but I was disappointed he didn't stick the ending

 

[Dark Raven]

At least James Spader didn't show his real face once. I'd like something similar with Dr Doom, although he could have one scene where he takes off his mask eventually. But I prefer Doom to keep his mask on the whole time. I didn't like to keep seeing Julian McMahon's face. He always felt rather sleazy anyway.

I remember he was once rumoured for Bond. Imagine how he would've been. He even once uttered the "Bond, James Bond" line for an interview, and even managed to make a pig's ear out of that.

 

[wobbly]

Showing a younger Doom pre-accident is fine, but afterwards his face should never be fully revealed. A rare glimpse of what might lie under the mask (scarring around his eyes for example) but no more than that. Best left to the imagination.

As an aside Kirby's original idea for Doom was that he wasn't badly scarred at all. He was left with no more than a scar on his cheek, but being so vain he thought himself hideous.

This soon became a redundant twist to follow when other characters (including Stan & Jack in one early issue) were shown reacting in sheer horror at seeing his face. I think that's a cue the movies should use: Show others horrified reactions, but never show the audience.

And I know they did reveal a lot of his face in the recent Secret Wars, but I'm gonna prefer to think that was the best Doom could do to fix it with his stolen powers, and not what it looked like before (though gnarly, it wasn't anything close to as horrible as I'd imagined).

Regarding mouth movement etc, Dooms mask is often drawn to be articulated around the mouth, so they could design one where the lower jaw moves up & down as he speaks (keep the grill covering his teeth though).

 

[Dark Raven]

When you say recent Secret Wars, wasn't that over 30 years ago? Doom fixed his face once he gained the Beyonder's powers and spent much of the last couple of issues without his mask.

 

[Spiderine]

Ultron was one of the biggest disappointments to me of all the Marvel villains because he had so much potential.

I didnt care for him either. Couldnt take him seriously as a villain when he was nothing more than a Stark wannabe. His plan was a major threat but when he is saying things like "Thor......your bothering me" it takes me out a bit. I wanted the Ultron i saw on Avenger earths mightiest heroes cartoon.