The Rebooted "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) Thread - Part 7

[Willie Lumpkin]

If you imagine a good, long novel being adapted, most would probably take 8-13 episodes to do right and include everything in the book (again, we keep coming back to Game of Thrones as a good example).

A two-hour film almost always has to cut a lot out (and typically feels rushed for anything that requires detailed set-up and development) and that's why I think when people read the book and then see the film they generally complain that the book was better.

And I think that's why we've been seeing so many excellent 8-13 episode shows. They fall into a groove that allows viewers to become completely immersed and see a story fully through with all the details and character and story development we're used to in a good novel, but by not having it in an endless, soap-opera format (that traditional long-running series fall into) the story can have a well-defined beginning, middle and end.

We may reach a point (particularly with people becoming less interested in actually going to films and more interested in watching shows in the comfort of their own home on high quality HDTV's) at which the 8-13 episode series actually over-takes the 2 hour film as the premier, most lucrative viewing experience. If you think about it, people pay $40 - $60 for a series on home digital (such as Vudu) and only $15-20 for a two hour film. And once you have production design done, costumes made, cast assembled, etc. it's not much more expensive to do 8 hours of story rather than 2 (at a certain quality level).

We may very well be in the midst of a paradigm shift, and the future may be in high-quality 8-13 episode series. If Disney has the foresight to recognize that (and I'm sure they have people who study these things and know much more than I do) they may be looking ahead and realizing it's worth investing in really doing Inhumans right and creating a series that everybody will be talking about the morning after it airs.

And they may also realize they can do that without Netflix and possibly use it as a tool to start to bring Networks back to their previous glory.

... or maybe that's all completely crazy, wishful thinking on my part.

Fun to think about and discuss in any case.

 

[Dasher10]

Assuming that the third Fox/Marvel coproduction in 2018 is X-Men 7 or Gambit in the Q4 slot (we know that the first two are Deadpool and New Mutants) and not a Fantastic Four film, then I feel like Fox will sell the rights back. It usually takes a good three years to get a film planned and if Fox own the rights to the X-Men, AvP, 24, Planet of the Apes and all future John Green novels so it isn't like Fox is hurting for Tentpole franchises. Fantastic Four is honestly a cancerous growth for Fox that just gets in the way of other blockbuster films getting greenlit.

 

[Endeavor]

What would you say is an amount FOX would accept as payment to give the rights back?

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

What would you say is an amount FOX would accept as payment to give the rights back?

Majority of Shared Control of X-Men merchandizing (Animation, TV, Games, Toys)


fantastic four is worth billions under MCU film control. Disney should just make the deal. MCU gets stronger and X-Men get the merch they deserve. They've been crippled with no games toys or animation


Iron Man 4 with Doom as the villain

GotG vol 3 vs Super Skrull or Annihulus

Spider-Man Homecoming with Torch as support character

Avengers 5 vs Kang

Avengers 6 vs Surfer & Galactus

etc etc etc


FoX has Marvel's best villains (Magneto & Doom 1A/1B but even going down the list of top villains FOX deal could end the one annoying complaint people make about the MCU the dam villains)

Also while FoX has Marvels best Females they also have Invisible Woman who under MCU control would be huge get for Disney.

 

[Zarex]

What would you say is an amount FOX would accept as payment to give the rights back?

A modification of the 1993 licensing agreement allowing FOX to produce television programs featuring the X-Men family of characters in cooperation with Marvel Television.

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

A modification of the 1993 licensing agreement allowing FOX to produce television programs featuring the X-Men family of characters in cooperation with Marvel Television.

If they did it just for Legion and the other FoX show then Disney might as well get all the X-Men back to. That's highway robbery

 

[Dasher10]

We'll know by 2018 if a new FF film is happening. 2019 is going to be cutting it way too close since Fox will need to write a script and then approve it.

Michael B. Jordan is part of the MCU now and has a contract with a no compete clause and Toby Kebbel has said that he won't do a sequel. The last film got a 27 Metacritic score and the Worst Picture Razzie. The next FF film won't be a sequel. It'll be a reboot. And Fox have until 2022 to make one. Considering that it's a film with a nine figure budget, it'll require a script and director by 2019, casting calls and sets to be built in 2020, principle photography to commence in 2021 and finally a 2022 release date. That means greenlighting it in 2018. If we don't hear serious talk next year about Fox considering it, then it's dead and Fox should just sell the FF back and cut their losses.

 

[Zarex]

If they did it just for Legion and the other FoX show then Disney might as well get all the X-Men back to. That's highway robbery

FOX hasn't made a dime off of the FF franchise in well over a decade, and in fact the studio lost over $80M on the last outing. And there is no scenario under which FOX makes money on the FF character family going forward.

Getting anything in return for an early release of character rights that are going to revert back to the owner anyway is a win. Receiving the right to put Marvel and X-Men branded television programming on your network in exchange for the early release of character rights that are going to revert back to the owner anyway is an enormous win.

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

FOX hasn't made a dime off of the FF franchise in well over a decade, and in fact the studio lost over $80M on the last outing. And there is no scenario under which FOX makes money on the FF character family going forward.

All of that is irrelevant. FF is worth Billions to Disney. FoX knows this. Just like they've kept A New Hope rights till 2020 they'll keep things just to do it.


Legion isn't enough for rights to FF which would make the MCU infinitely stronger. You can legitimately make at least 5-10 billion dollar MCU movies with FF villains

 

[ADollarADay]

Majority of Shared Control of X-Men merchandizing (Animation, TV, Games, Toys)

Disney would be stupid to accept that. Marvel pre 2000's level of stupid. Let Fox try making FF again and lose another 100 million or so.

We'll know by 2018 if a new FF film is happening. 2019 is going to be cutting it way too close since Fox will need to write a script and then approve it.

Michael B. Jordan is part of the MCU now and has a contract with a no compete clause and Toby Kebbel has said that he won't do a sequel. The last film got a 27 Metacritic score and the Worst Picture Razzie. The next FF film won't be a sequel. It'll be a reboot. And Fox have until 2022 to make one. Considering that it's a film with a nine figure budget, it'll require a script and director by 2019, casting calls and sets to be built in 2020, principle photography to commence in 2021 and finally a 2022 release date. That means greenlighting it in 2018. If we don't hear serious talk next year about Fox considering it, then it's dead and Fox should just sell the FF back and cut their losses.

Here's the thing, if your scenario plays out and by Jan 2019, we haven't heard a peep about a new FF from Fox (i.e. no script, no director, nothing), then Marvel/Disney would also know that Fox is pretty screwed and will have a hard time getting principal photography started by May 2021. Disney would have very little incentive to offer any type of deal to Fox (that didn't involve XMen or ANH distribution rights).

All of that is irrelevant. FF is worth Billions to Disney. FoX knows this. Just like they've kept A New Hope rights till 2020 they'll keep things just to do it.


Legion isn't enough for rights to FF which would make the MCU infinitely stronger. You can legitimately make at least 5-10 billion dollar MCU movies with FF villains

FF is a damaged franchise right now. 5-10 billion dollars? WTF? XMen is much more valuable. Not saying Marvel can't make FF work again, but Fox has made sure that the franchise is as worthless as possible right now. Disney doesn't really need FF either, and as Feige said, they have a lot of characters and stories to tell without ever needing the FF or XMen. They are not going to overpay in order to get live action movie distribution rights back. Like I said, they would let Fox try and make another movie in a franchise that no one cares about today and that Fox has failed miserably 3 times, the last one in spectacular fashion.

Also, unless a deal is made, Fox owns distribution rights to SW: ANH in perpetuity, but Disney are the ones who are taking the distribution rights of all other SW movies away from Fox, not the other way around.

 

[Zarex]

All of that is irrelevant. FF is worth Billions to Disney. FoX knows this. Just like they've kept A New Hope rights till 2020 they'll keep things just to do it.


Legion isn't enough for rights to FF which would make the MCU infinitely stronger. You can legitimately make at least 5-10 billion dollar MCU movies with FF villains

Whether or not FF is worth billions to Disney is irrelevant. The rights are worth squat to FOX. Coming out of this with rights worth tens of millions of dollars annually in streaming alone is a good deal.

FOX has held onto the rights to the first Star Wars film because they are worth money. They just cashed in recently when TBS purchased the cable airing rights to the first six films from both Disney and FOX. The FF rights are nowhere near as valuable .

And to say that the Disney FF films would be a billion dollars each? Let's hold our horses here. FOX has effectively slashed the FF character family's collective throat with their three awful efforts. Disney/Marvel is going to have to spend a lot of money and time getting that property back to where it can break even, let alone generate a billion at the BO.

I think that the FF rights either transferred with the X-Men TV rights agreement or will transfer over the next few years. And in time for Phase 4. We shall see.

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

FF is a damaged franchise right now. 5-10 billion dollars? WTF?

MCU hero films vs FF villains = 10 billion

Iron Man 4 with Doom as villain
Avengers 5 vs Kang
Avengers 6 vs Surfer
Avengers 7 vs Galactus
GotG 3 vs Annilhus
GotG 4 Skrull vs Kree War

That's 6 billion right there

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

And to say that the Disney FF films would be a billion dollars each? Let's hold our horses here.

FF/X-Men/Spider-Man villains are far superior to MCU villains

Put those great villains in MCU films and watch the $ pour in

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

There's are plenty of people like myself who prefer MCU films but only spend $ on X-Men merch because I prefer those characters in all things except the films.

Not putting out = amounts of X-Men merch hurts the fan base. This is a equal trade IMO. MCU would make so much more with FoX villains.


It just seems like MCU only fans don't want any non MCU only fans have any happiness

 

[ADollarADay]

MCU hero films vs FF villains = 10 billion

Iron Man 4 with Doom as villain
Avengers 5 vs Kang
Avengers 6 vs Surfer
Avengers 7 vs Galactus
GotG 3 vs Annilhus
GotG 4 Skrull vs Kree War

That's 6 billion right there

Are you one of those people who think Civil War only did over 1B because Spiderman was in it?

Assuming all those movies exist, IM4, Avengers 5-7, GoTG3-4 will all do extremely well on their own, without any need for any of those villains.

There's are plenty of people like myself who prefer MCU films but only spend $ on X-Men merch because I prefer those characters in all things except the films.

Not putting out = amounts of X-Men merch hurts the fan base. This is a equal trade IMO. MCU would make so much more with FoX villains.


It just seems like MCU only fans don't want any non MCU only fans have any happiness

That is a horrible trade. You are thinking about what you want, not from a business perspective. Disney does not have to give up something as valuable as merchandise rights to a whole bunch of characters for live movie rights to a damaged property.

 

[Spiderine]

Does anybody here honestly believe FOX is going to make another FF film within the next 5 years? How about a Silver Surfer spinoff? How about a "My Mom was a Skrull film? Diary of a MadMan named Dr Doom film? If you don't believe any of that do you think Marvel would?

Marvel literally doesn't have to give up anything to FOX for the rights UNLESS they have a desire to start using some supporting FF characters going into phase 4. That means they would need to start making preliminary plans soon for that to happen and they would need access to them in a few years. You want them now you give up something to FOX. You wait it out.......no immediate plans to use them starting phase 4......they get delivered to Marvel Studios doorstep for free.

In the mean time.....who will be groomed as the next big bad moving forward when Thanos will likely get dealt with. I am sure Marvel has ideas if they don't go that route but FOX got some heavy hitters. You want to up the ante with universal threats Marvel may give in and FOX knows that.

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

In the mean time.....who will be groomed as the next big bad moving forward when Thanos will likely get dealt with. I am sure Marvel has ideas if they don't go that route but FOX got some heavy hitters. You want to up the ante with universal threats Marvel may give in and FOX knows that.

FOX & Sony have the majority of Marvel's top 25-30 villains. They say a hero is only as good as his villain.

FOX villains would power the MCU for decades

 

[Leo Zelinsky]

Assuming all those movies exist, IM4, Avengers 5-7, GoTG3-4 will all do extremely well on their own, without any need for any of those villains.



That is a horrible trade. You are thinking about what you want, not from a business perspective. Disney does not have to give up something as valuable as merchandise rights to a whole bunch of characters for live movie rights to a damaged property.

Gunn already said GotG 2 would be hard to make without FoX's Ego. Disney needs more of FoX's villains they already would've canceled Defenders if they could've got Surfer & Galactus like they really wanted. So to marvel Surfer & Galactus themselves are worth more than multiple seasons of Daredevil n Elektra


Your naive thinking FF villains wouldn't boost the MCU. The villains of the FF are more important than the FF themselves. Nobody will care if FF is "damaged" the characters wouldn't be used in a FF movie idk what your not understanding.

100% control of the Skrulls or Kree would be huge for Disney no longer having to share those races. We wouldn't got lame Chitauri in A1 if Disney owned the Skrulls fully. Little stupid stuff like that adds up when a partnership could avoid all this foolishness

A proper MCU Doom would be huge and could be bigger than Loki ever was

A real Galactus or Kang would be huge for Disney.

Secret Invasion storyline would be possible etc etc

If Gunn settled for freaking Ego imagine what he could do with proper FF space villains.


He wanted The Badoon for GotG 1 but again that's FoX.


Whedon already said FoX has Marvel's best females. And Invisible Woman is one of those.


FoX made FF 15 idk why people think they won't just put out another cheap film.

I want FF in the MCU for the villains IDC if the four themselves aren't popular. The FF villains are > MCU villains combined.



You say its a horrible trade I don't see how. I never said FoX gets 100% profit for X-Men merch I just said shared. So basically to you its OK for X-Men fans to get jack **** because the films who most of us hate anyways are made by FoX. Marvels not gonna do anything with X-Men merch anymore so basically if it aint mcu then were **** outta luck

 

[Zarex]

I'd love for Marvel and FOX to come to some sort of agreement on the FF, if they haven't already. But FOX won't be getting any sort of windfall on the transaction. It's like borrowing someone's classic car, putting cigarette burns in the upholstery, trashing the engine and ruining the paint job . And then asking for a check from the owner.

 

[ADollarADay]

Gunn already said GotG 2 would be hard to make without FoX's Ego. Disney needs more of FoX's villains they already would've canceled Defenders if they could've got Surfer & Galactus like they really wanted. So to marvel Surfer & Galactus themselves are worth more than multiple seasons of Daredevil n Elektra


Your naive thinking FF villains wouldn't boost the MCU. The villains of the FF are more important than the FF themselves. Nobody will care if FF is "damaged" the characters wouldn't be used in a FF movie idk what your not understanding.

100% control of the Skrulls or Kree would be huge for Disney no longer having to share those races. We wouldn't got lame Chitauri in A1 if Disney owned the Skrulls fully. Little stupid stuff like that adds up when a partnership could avoid all this foolishness

A proper MCU Doom would be huge and could be bigger than Loki ever was

A real Galactus or Kang would be huge for Disney.

Secret Invasion storyline would be possible etc etc

If Gunn settled for freaking Ego imagine what he could do with proper FF space villains.


He wanted The Badoon for GotG 1 but again that's FoX.


Whedon already said FoX has Marvel's best females. And Invisible Woman is one of those.


FoX made FF 15 idk why people think they won't just put out another cheap film.

I want FF in the MCU for the villains IDC if the four themselves aren't popular. The FF villains are > MCU villains combined.



You say its a horrible trade I don't see how. I never said FoX gets 100% profit for X-Men merch I just said shared. So basically to you its OK for X-Men fans to get jack **** because the films who most of us hate anyways are made by FoX. Marvels not gonna do anything with X-Men merch anymore so basically if it aint mcu then were **** outta luck

All this tells me you're a comic book fan, but a business man you are not.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

FF is a damaged franchise right now. 5-10 billion dollars? WTF?

To give you an idea of how absurd that amount is, Disney paid $4 billion for Star Wars and Indiana Jones.

Marvel doesn't need the Fantastic Four at all. They are doing perfectly fine without them. While it would be nice to have, it is far from necessary. They aren't even worth anywhere near $1 billion, let alone 10.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

As an aside, I very much disagree with the idea that Fox has the best female characters. They have a bunch of team characters that can't hold their own solo franchises.

Marvel has characters like Black Widow, Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, Wasp, Jessica Jones, Jessica Drew, She-Hulk, Elektra, Shanna the She-Devil, etc. It dwarfs what Fox has.

 

[NotNickFury]

To give you an idea of how absurd that amount is, Disney paid $4 billion for Star Wars and Indiana Jones.

Marvel doesn't need the Fantastic Four at all. They are doing perfectly fine without them. While it would be nice to have, it is far from necessary. They aren't even worth anywhere near $1 billion, let alone 10.

Agreed. And same with the X-Men, though I'm not picky on who controls them. Would it be interesting to see Marvel Studios' take on the Fantastic Four? Sure, but right now, and maybe even for the foreseeable future, there's no need. If you can make the likes of Loki and Ultron mainstream for a general audience, despite the third act issues of both The Avengers and Age of Ultron and generic enemy army, it can be done with any villain without needing someone from the F4 franchise.

 

[Darkraid]

I have a very funny idea. I do not know if it will work.

If FF comes back to MCU, would it be a good idea to make an Avengers vs Fantastic Four movie?

In the past, Howard Stark and Peggy Carter were the first to launch a team of 5 scientists into space. The team vanishes into the negative zone.

After the battle with Thanos, Thanos accidentally ripped apart dimensions using the time stone. The Avengers defeated Thanos and exiled him in the negative zone. However, the 5 scientist got out. Doom with his powers mind control the FF to do his bidding. All 5 of them gained powers in the N-zone.

So Doom comes back to his home in Sovokia to find it in ruins. After finding out what happened, he decided to rebuilt the country and rename it into Latveria.

Doom, with a grudge with SHIELD and the Avengers, unleashes the FF to fight with the Avengers.

 

[wobbly]

MCU hero films vs FF villains = 10 billion

Iron Man 4 with Doom as villain
Avengers 5 vs Kang
Avengers 6 vs Surfer
Avengers 7 vs Galactus
GotG 3 vs Annilhus
GotG 4 Skrull vs Kree War

That's 6 billion right there

Some business 101, you can't sell something based on what you think the other guy might theoretically be able to make from it, you sell it for as much cash as the other guy is willing to pay.

Factor in too that they can't deal with anyone else. They have only one possible buyer and they have a franchise they may as well rename 'Fantastically F####d'.