The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion Thread - Part 150

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]472575[/split]

 

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]467675[/split]

 

[Shikamaru]

It's funny, because that's how I feel about TASM2.

Except that TASM 2 isn't "generally considered bad", so only half of my post maximum can apply in context.

 

[JackWhite]

To get back on topic, even though I have always loved BB; watching TASM again made me realize how great of an origin story and first chapter of a trilogy BB really is.

 

[Brother Jack]

To get back on topic, even though I have always loved BB; watching TASM again made me realize how great of an origin story and first chapter of a trilogy BB really is.

Begins is the setup and it's a great setup. For my money the best origin story yet to be done. In some ways it is the most traditional superhero adventure film of the three. The sequels take that character groundwork with Bruce/Batman and turn it on its head, effectively dismantling what it had established while logically progressing the thematic ideas. Batman is deconstructed in Knight with the Joker turning the symbol against Gotham while Bruce himself is deconstructed in Rises, stripping away nearly every support structure of his life to leave the essential core.

 

[JackWhite]

Begins is the setup and it's a great setup. For my money the best origin story yet to be done. In some ways it is the most traditional superhero adventure film of the three. The sequels take that character groundwork with Bruce/Batman and turn it on its head, effectively dismantling what it had established while logically progressing the thematic ideas. Batman is deconstructed in Knight with the Joker turning the symbol against Gotham while Bruce himself is deconstructed in Rises, stripping away nearly every support structure of his life to leave the essential core.

I'm currently listening to "Eptesicus" from the BB soundtrack while looking at your avatar.

I think it's time for another viewing of BB....

 

[Shikamaru]

To get back on topic, even though I have always loved BB; watching TASM again made me realize how great of an origin story and first chapter of a trilogy BB really is.

TASM is my favorite Spider-Man film and I still agree with that 100%.

 

[JackWhite]

TASM is my favorite Spider-Man film and I still agree with that 100%.

 

[BatLobster]

To me, what makes Begins special are the following:

- Great, epic casting (sans Katie Holmes)
- Nonlinear origin that pulls you into Bruce Wayne's lost soul from the opening minutes
- Tactile, practical effects-driven aesthetic that harkens back to 70s blockbusters
- A very fresh musical approach (at the time) to a superhero movie
- A fresh take on an old story, generally speaking

Those are the big ones for me. In many ways it's a by-the-numbers origin script with a lot of similar beats that you see in all the other ones. But it's exactly what it needed to be, and Nolan's fresh approach to the genre made it something really special.

 

[The Shape]

To me, what makes Begins special are the following:

- Great, epic casting (sans Katie Holmes)
- Nonlinear origin that pulls you into Bruce Wayne's lost soul from the opening minutes
- Tactile, practical effects-driven aesthetic that harkens back to 70s blockbusters
- A very fresh musical approach (at the time) to a superhero movie
- A fresh take on an old story, generally speaking

Those are the big ones for me. In many ways it's a by-the-numbers origin script with a lot of similar beats that you see in all the other ones. But it's exactly what it needed to be, and Nolan's fresh approach to the genre made it something really special.

I'll add one thing to your list -- cinematography.

 

[BatLobster]

Agreed, I meant to put that in there actually. I think making the story international which allowed for some of that stunning photography counts for a lot.

Most of those strengths are things I'd apply to the trilogy as a whole, but Begins was just our first time getting hit with all of that. Begins was definitely necessary to prepare us for what was to come. People talk about TDK working as a stand alone film, and it does...but you still needed to have Begins first IMO. You can't just leap from B&R to TDK.

 

[shauner111]

And let's not forget that AMAZING score that just tramples on everything. Especially every other origin story in the genre.

 

[The Batman]

MOS and ASM make me appreciate BB so much more.

I felt like compared to MOS/ASM, BB was actually something different. It was a movie that could actually be considered better than the installments from the previous franchise.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

Although Raimi's first Spider-Man and Iron Man are very close, Batman Begins is easily the best origin story for a film, imo. Films after it learned form the success, and tried to bank off of it, or used the same type of formula it did. CR being a perfect example.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

I've also grown to love BB more in the last few years... I think we kind of took it for granted, but with movies like The Amazing Spider-Man, it makes you realise just how good it is.

 

[redfirebird2008]

I've also grown to love BB more in the last few years... I think we kind of took it for granted, but with movies like The Amazing Spider-Man, it makes you realise just how good it is.

I've never taken it for granted. I felt it was underrated a bit by critics when it came out.

Top Critics especially seemed to miss the boat. Only 63% gave it the the thumbs up while they drooled over the two Raimi films. That didn't make sense to me. It was at least on par with them and actually better IMHO.

It has held up a lot better to the test of time than many of its contemporaries from that period. Still haven't seen a better superhero movie than BB. It isn't perfect, but none of them are.

 

[shauner111]

Amazing Spider-Man is better than Spider-Man 3 but it's nowhere near the first two spideys. It has a couple of scenes that i prefer over Raimis original. Mainly because of Garfield. But overall? It's an extremely unoriginal movie, it's basically a remake of the 2002 film, just omitting a few things or replacing them with something similar but just different enough to try to pass it off as "new".

It's a trap that Man Of Steel even falls into..even though it's more original than TASM. MOS tries too hard in the first 20 minutes to be a modern Star Trek/Star Wars with Kryptonian imagery, then it wants to be Batman Begins, then Raimis Spider-Man, then Independance Day then Avengers. It doesn't know what it wants.

And that's why Batman Begins beats them all. When it came out in 2005, i thought it was the best superhero movie ever made and i wasn't sure if i would see anything better. I have now. But i dont take it for granted.

 

[georgec]

BB was such a revelation. The emotional investment people feel with that movie is what makes it so great. I have a cousin who couldn't care less about superhero/geek movies, and she watched BB a couple months ago (the whole TDKT, actually) and loved it. Her words were, "I was genuinely surprised at how good it was." That seems to be the reaction people had to BB, and why it gained such a big following on DVD leading to the hype for TDK.

 

[BatLobster]

BB was basically Nolan unleashing the type of blockbuster movie that he would've enjoyed growing up in the 70s. Up until that moment he was just known as the guy who made cerebral, puzzle films. I think with BB he revealed the side of himself that has grown to define who he is as a filmmaker more...a guy who wants to make grand scale entertainment with some thought and a pulse behind the spectacle. And a sense of tactile reality.

 

[JackWhite]

BB was basically Nolan unleashing the type of blockbuster movie that he would've enjoyed growing up in the 70s. Up until that moment he was just known as the guy who made cerebral, puzzle films. I think with BB he revealed the side of himself that has grown to define who he is as a filmmaker more...a guy who wants to make grand scale entertainment with some thought and a pulse behind the spectacle. And a sense of tactile reality.

Yep, pretty much this.

I remember seeing the Tumbler cutting loose for the first time during the chase scene and thinking "Wow, that's an actual car doing this".

 

[Brother Jack]

BB was basically Nolan unleashing the type of blockbuster movie that he would've enjoyed growing up in the 70s. Up until that moment he was just known as the guy who made cerebral, puzzle films. I think with BB he revealed the side of himself that has grown to define who he is as a filmmaker more...a guy who wants to make grand scale entertainment with some thought and a pulse behind the spectacle. And a sense of tactile reality.

At the time it was risky, new territory. Nolan was an unproven talent in the blockbuster field and the vision he had with Batman was pretty radically different than what had came before. It's easy to forget now but Begins is really one of the most influential films of the 00's. It basically started the idea of the gritty reboot which is currently all the rage.

It's funny because Begins is narratively the most simplistic, straightforward movie (flashbacks aside) Nolan's made to date. It has a clear, three-act structure and follows Bruce/Batman almost exclusively. There is quite a charm about that even though it seems a little pedestrian when compared to the sequels.

 

[The Endless]

I think it's simplicity is it's strength. Rises had too much going on for it's own good.

And Begins still has the most iconic Batman moments. He was a genuine bad ass in that film. The scene at the docks and the Tumbler chase are the best action scenes in the trilogy by a long long way, for me.

 

[DACrowe]

Batman Begins is a near perfect origin tale. It might be exposition heavy, but it takes you on this character's journey to the point where his becoming Batman feels narratively organic and satisfying, as opposed to expected and obligated. And it just a lot of fun.

Not to join the "bash TASM" bandwagon...but, yes. That not only felt redundant of the first Raimi movie, it spun its wheels making things like Uncle Ben's death and his becoming Spider-Man feel almost random in their obligatory nature, as opposed to a logical progression of the character. And the less said about the Lizard, the better. And I say this as a big fan of the Lizard character as a kid.

 

[BlackFox]

Batman Begins is a near perfect origin tale. It might be exposition heavy, but it takes you on this character's journey to the point where his becoming Batman feels narratively organic and satisfying, as opposed to expected and obligated. And it just a lot of fun.

Not to join the "bash TASM" bandwagon...but, yes. That not only felt redundant of the first Raimi movie, it spun its wheels making things like Uncle Ben's death and his becoming Spider-Man feel almost random in their obligatory nature, as opposed to a logical progression of the character. And the less said about the Lizard, the better. And I say this as a big fan of the Lizard character as a kid.

The problem with TASM was that a better origin story had already been made.

BB got the key aspect of an origins story right in that it made sense for Wayne to become Batman with everything that led up to that point, not just some random event. Much like Rises, Nolan wasnt afraid to not show you the character until 45 minutes into the film, building up to it rather than shoving it in your face.

The best origins stories for me are ones that build the non super hero character first before revealing what we know is coming. BB got it right, Cap1 was another that worked for me and the original Spidey.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

I'm watching The Dark Knight Rises, and I still can't help but be a little upset that Bale won't be Batman in the first ever crossover with Superman.