The Temple of Doomed Relationships

[amazingfantasy15]

This. Makes. Sense.

The unfortunate truth of the matter is that guys, like me, are in a terrible need to be involved in a relationship. I know from my side that it isn't because I feel lonely (hell, I love solitude), but because the girl-being-chased is that much of a sweetheart.

It gets inflated to the point where even thinking that she's doing this to make herself feel more attractive (a negative label) seems UNTRUE to us. But the thing is, even if she's not doing that consciously, you can't speak or even blame her for her unconscious actions. And I think, on an unconscious level, some of those stereotypical "natural behaviour" that all societies have come to label men and women with, DO IN FACT WORK.

Women want confidence because, in classical Jungian terms, men they are attracted to are usually similar to a physical manifestation of their unconscious SELF. That unconscious self is violent and confident and fearless. The conscious side of the girl would "lock the guy in a relationship" once she sees both sides (and honestly, a normal and sane human being does have both sides), and that's what we fail to consider time and again: her unconscious, sexual personality. The one who craves violence.

Even the Greeks knew that.

What I'm trying to say is that those aspects of masculinity are in fact psychologically present when sexual attraction is concerned. The reverse is true for men.

But just because someone reflects YOUR unconscious-self so well doesn't mean there won't be others doing the same. Again, alluding to Jung, it is a collective unconscious. There are more physical manifestations out there.

So yeah. Demonstrating that fearless, confident MALE aspect is NOT an automatic regression into sexual chauvinism. The 'nice guy' still lives, but one shouldn't have to go around displaying that. Especially to a girl he's attracted to.

(Now I gotta learn how to DO that instead of TALKING ABOUT it).

The "nice guy" is not a nice guy, he's a liar. He's someone who wants a girl, but won't do anything to get the girl, he expects the girl to make all the moves. For one year you've pined for a girl, what have you done to get the girl? What moves have you made? I knew I liked my current girlfriend when we started dating, so on our second date, I made sure she couldn't mistake my feelings, holding her hand and kissing her. You've got to make your intentions clear and do it sooner rather than later. If you try to be her friend first, the boyfriend later thinking that's the "nice and respectful" approach you're actually being a bigger dick than any other dick she actually dates because you're starting your friendship on a lie.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Bull. ****.

I'm more than a genetics delivery system and a bunch of other crap to keep it alive.

That's why dude said "jungle" mate. As in CONVENTIONAL. As in stereotypical.

The "nice guy" is not a nice guy, he's a liar. He's someone who wants a girl, but won't do anything to get the girl, he expects the girl to make all the moves. For one year you've pined for a girl, what have you done to get the girl? What moves have you made? I knew I liked my current girlfriend when we started dating, so on our second date, I made sure she couldn't mistake my feelings, holding her hand and kissing her. You've got to make your intentions clear and do it sooner rather than later. If you try to be her friend first, the boyfriend later thinking that's the "nice and respectful" approach you're actually being a bigger dick than any other dick she actually dates because you're starting your friendship on a lie.

Not one bit. I had no intention of being involved with her during that whole year. It's only recently that I had developed these feelings. And I tried to see subtly if she's interested in the same way, and saw that that isn't the case. SO I've decided to stop pursuing. If she agrees to go on a date with me, that also means she has feelings in the same way, and if that happens, then yeah, I will definitely let her know how much she matters. I already took the first step. And several others. When we got too close she took steps back, didn't answer my phone-calls or respond to text-messages (hell, this other girl, now that i think of it, is a lot more eager to talk to me, especially about love, sex, and relationships.)

The 'nice guy' i'm referring to is the one who's too afraid to be a dick. The one who's TOO OPEN to other suggestions and the one WHO IS HEEDS HIS EMOTIONS TOO MUCH. Who starts to pine over every last bit of uncertainty in this universe, who writes neat little poetry because he can't express himself or connect with anyone in any real humane way. The person who lets the world step all over him because it's hey, "they're right." The YES MAN. The Beta-guy. The guy who still thinks that he can change his world and remove all the ugliness in it. Who's willing to give the small guy the benefit of the doubt. Yes him. He's got a lot of good in him, but when you try to equate that on a social level, the only thing he gets is bullied. That "nice guy" needs to stay where he matters: inside. Not outside.

Are you suggesting that, even after the poetry and the phone-calls, the lack of sexual-response, even after all that I still go ahead and let my heart out to her? I'm not angry at her.

 

[SuperMike335!!]

Bull. ****.

I'm more than a genetics delivery system and a bunch of other crap to keep it alive.

Ok in that case, tell me in detail how that makes you feel. Try to be more specific.

 

[Spider-Fan83]

I'm giving this advice under the assumption you're a legal adult where you live.

Stop emotionally investing in everything so much. It’s not like if you fail with one girl you are not going to get more opportunities.

Stop making excuses. Go get numbers from more women, set up multiple dates a week, and for the love of everything, go have sex.

first of all don't you know me, you don't know what I've done, or been through

I don't know where your getting this idea of me being too emotionally investing, or in anyway "giving her the power"

but, I am not some horny school boy out trying to get laid,(I am nearly 30 for christ sake)
an its not like I didn't have my wild days when I was younger, but those days are over, I don't see anything wrong with wanting more, now

there's more to life then getting laid

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

That's why dude said "jungle" mate. As in CONVENTIONAL. As in stereotypical.

Which is still wrong. I'm sorry, but a lot of what gets talked about around here really butchers what I know of genetics and human evolution. There's no real evidence that men and women have "gender roles" in "the jungle", in fact there's much more evidence that what makes humans unique is there ability to swap roles and perform similar tasks as a team. You can try to justify misogyny with biology if you like, but understand that's more or less what you are doing. It seems pretty consistent to assume humans at least favor monogamy much more, males as much as females.

 

[Erzengel]

first of all don't you know me, you don't know what I've done, or been through

I don't know where your getting this idea of me being too emotionally investing, or in anyway "giving her the power"

but, I am not some horny school boy out trying to get laid,(I am nearly 30 for christ sake)
an its not like I didn't have my wild days when I was younger, but those days are over, I don't see anything wrong with wanting more, now

there's more to life then getting laid

Approaches aside.

I'm still not quite sure why you feel the need to put all your "emotional eggs" in one basket with this girl.

Why not play the field until she decides she wants to date? To be honest, if she waits too long you could move on to bigger better things.

 

[SuperFerret]

Ok in that case, tell me in detail how that makes you feel. Try to be more specific.

It makes me feel like you're the type of guy that I've always disliked, the type I've always sworn I'd never become, and ultimately, the type of guy who I pity because while you may have far more sex than I will, I'll be more emotionally fulfilled.

The nice guy does exist, ladies and gentlemen. He's just not a wet blanket like you might think he is.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Which is still wrong. I'm sorry, but a lot of what gets talked about around here really butchers what I know of genetics and human evolution. There's no real evidence that men and women have "gender roles" in "the jungle", in fact there's much more evidence that what makes humans unique is there ability to swap roles and perform similar tasks as a team. You can try to justify misogyny with biology if you like, but understand that's more or less what you are doing. It seems pretty consistent to assume humans at least favor monogamy much more, males as much as females.

I think you're misreading here. I am not saying that there are specific gender roles that are immediately natural to any gender. In fact, all I've been arguing so far HAS BEEN that both genders have traditional qualities of "masculine" and "feminine" on a psychological level (that's what I'm trying to say by alluding to Jung). In fact, certain elements of our unconscious selves prove that both aspects exist within us. Nevertheless, on a sexual level you can't deny that women are more attracted to confidence than they are to passive, submissive men. The "jungle" analogy is meant to be sexual, not social. Hell, the entire idea of being more expressive emotionally goes into that. You don't need me to tell you that human beings are multi-dimensional, but the image they portray of themselves on society or in social encounters ARE ONE DIMENSIONAL most of the time. Right now, for me, most of it is this weak, needy, nice loner guy. I have failed time and again to show the side of me which is confident and unafraid. It's no wonder that the girl I cared so much for didn't didn't feel the same way: she never sees anything in me that is attractive to her, and it BEGINS (not ends) with that lack-of-traditionally-defined masculinity. That isn't to say she is superficial, because she's probably not even conscious about that fact (girl does poor in psychology :P).

And when it comes to relationships, or simply attracting others, we need to break away from that one-dimensional image and demonstrate those other dimensions.

Today, guys have grown way more timid than they were in the past. And as a result of that, guys like ME have lost all their ability to demonstrate confidence. There are more than psychological, sexual, and social factors at work here.

I am under no way encouraging or implying that the world is black-and-white. But the world's sexual orientation, for the strong majority, is. Women are sexually attracted to men who are confident and able to hold on their own. On an emotional level, that might be a different case, depending on the person. How is saying that chauvinistic mate?

Last note: TRADITIONALLY speaking, for guys like me who are too eager to get into relationships, I think it is sound advice that we let the girls try to focus on the 'relationship' part because a) we're too inclined to go there anyway, and often without knowing if that's what they want, and b) by trying to focus on 'relationships' from the start, we're really just hurting ourselves.

Your thoughts?

 

[Anita18]

Thanks Anita, thing is the main problem here is that I never explicitly told her I'm in love with her or anything like that, because, to be fair, I've known her for a year and I do enjoy her company a lot and she does too, but I've never seen anything concrete, any sort of mutual affection returned from her. Now, a part of me remains in disbelief, thinking that MAYBE and WHAT IF ... y'know, what if I confront her about it and her wall of hesitation breaks. But y'know what? Implicit meanings too are reliable. And I have to believe, for my sake, that since she doesn't take any steps to show her feelings that they really do not exist. Like you said, it's better to drop the chase.

Implicit meanings? Some people are incredibly dense or they're incredibly shy - you can concoct all sorts of things in your head from implicit meanings that may turn out to be untrue.

My cousin had a crush on one of his friends for the longest time. Finally he got up the courage to TELL HER what he felt, and guess what? She felt the same! They got married last year.

My bf and I had gone out on all of like, four dates when he told me he wanted to take things further. I didn't say yes or no at that time, but he didn't give off the vibe that his life would be over if I'd said no. He kept on asking me out, so I guess he was still a "nice guy." But, at least I knew exactly what his intentions were if I said yes to any more dates, so I couldn't cry foul later.

You'll never know if you don't ask.

Or maybe you'll be suited to the dating scene in France. My coworker from Paris just got out of a long relationship and he's having trouble navigating the American dating scene. We really want labels here, whereas apparently in France you keep on hanging out until one day it's "OMG we're having sex!"

Thanks for all the advice guys

I think the best thing for me to do is to go up and have a meeting with the recruitment agency soon, and ask their advice as well. See what's available at the moment. I think once i've done that, i'll know how I feel about whether the risk is going to be a good one or a stupid one.

Sounds like a good plan! Taking the plunge is always scary, and it's best to be prepared!

first of all don't you know me, you don't know what I've done, or been through

I don't know where your getting this idea of me being too emotionally investing, or in anyway "giving her the power"

but, I am not some horny school boy out trying to get laid,(I am nearly 30 for christ sake)
an its not like I didn't have my wild days when I was younger, but those days are over, I don't see anything wrong with wanting more, now

there's more to life then getting laid

I also wouldn't recommend "getting laid" be the goal if you have say, performance issues every time you're with a new girl. Hell, my bf and I had been dating for MONTHS before we finally got physical and...to say he was nervous is the understatement of the year. And I'd already told him I was a virgin, so I wouldn't have known if it was bad anyway. He wouldn't have lasted a week on the "getting laid" plan.

But anyway, it's not a bad thing to be looking for other prospects. At the very least, verbalize what you want about the potential relationship to this girl, because not knowing is holding you back.

 

[Anita18]

It makes me feel like you're the type of guy that I've always disliked, the type I've always sworn I'd never become, and ultimately, the type of guy who I pity because while you may have far more sex than I will, I'll be more emotionally fulfilled.

The nice guy does exist, ladies and gentlemen. He's just not a wet blanket like you might think he is.

As with all things, there's a scale.

Some of us see SuperMike as a Neanderthal, while he likely sees some of us as weak pansies. I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle.

His advice DOES seem to lean toward the PUA line of thinking, but it's not all be-all-end-all. He did say my bf did the right things, although it was definitely not the PUA way of doing things.

Today, guys have grown way more timid than they were in the past. And as a result of that, guys like ME have lost all their ability to demonstrate confidence. There are more than psychological, sexual, and social factors at work here.

I am under no way encouraging or implying that the world is black-and-white. But the world's sexual orientation, for the strong majority, is. Women are sexually attracted to men who are confident and able to hold on their own. On an emotional level, that might be a different case, depending on the person. How is saying that chauvinistic mate?

Last note: TRADITIONALLY speaking, for guys like me who are too eager to get into relationships, I think it is sound advice that we let the girls try to focus on the 'relationship' part because a) we're too inclined to go there anyway, and often without knowing if that's what they want, and b) by trying to focus on 'relationships' from the start, we're really just hurting ourselves.

Your thoughts?

What does that mean? You said yourself you have no confidence. That says it all right there. You either have confidence or you don't. Truly confident people don't NEED to show it - you can see it in everything they do.

If you think you need to show confidence, that screams you don't have any and you're likely to overdo it. My ex-bf had no confidence and he tried to fake it. Everyone thought he was an arrogant *****e instead. And he still found his heart trampled on a few more times before he finally met his wife.

My current bf is shy and quiet, but he's very confident in his abilities, and I never got the impression that he was putting all his emotional eggs in my basket. You don't have to be able to ask every girl's number to be confident. You just have to be settled in your life and stand up for yourself, and not be afraid to ask for what you want.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

It makes me feel like you're the type of guy that I've always disliked, the type I've always sworn I'd never become, and ultimately, the type of guy who I pity because while you may have far more sex than I will, I'll be more emotionally fulfilled.

The nice guy does exist, ladies and gentlemen. He's just not a wet blanket like you might think he is.

*Nice Guy looks up. Looks at wet blanket. Gets confused.*

Dude, I get where you're coming from. BUT I think there's a fundamental DISAGREEMENT around here about "the nice guy". There are several definitions conflicting here:

1. He's the guy who lets the world walk all over him.

2. He's the guy who's respectful of women and others and is not willing to succumb to being traditionally-masculine.

3. He's the emotional guy who's in love with girls who're ignoring them (like 1. but different in being "emotional")

I think the 'Alpha' and 'Beta' distinctions serve it well here. But you have to be honest with yourself and say that both Alpha and Beta characteristics exist in you. The complete person is someone who's willing to accept that and be...

4. Emotionally stable, respectful towards women and others, BUT CONFIDENT AND WILLING TO PUT HIS OWN SELF FIRST. At least when it comes to relationships.

There is nothing wrong with doing that. The Nice Guy exists, but you don't have to be nice all the time. Especially to a society that doesn't value it.

After you're in a stable relationship, there's nothing stopping you from being the Nice Guy because you do need that. You need to be all of it. That's what I think.

 

[Hound55]

 

[SuperFerret]

I wasn't thinking that we were going to be so literal about this, but if we're talking about "the Nice Guy" having to be nice ALL the time, then he's got other problems. I'm taking more issue with the idea that the "Alpha male" has to not only be nearly exclusively self-serving, but also misogynistic. Human society resembles a wolf pack more than a pride of lions. The alpha male human is more the knight in shining armor that slays the ogre than the ogre himself.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

You don't need me to tell you that human beings are multi-dimensional, but the image they portray of themselves on society or in social encounters ARE ONE DIMENSIONAL most of the time.

This is why you fail.

Humans are never one dimensional, ever. If a girl ever tells you that "you just don't understand me", this is at the heart of why she says this. Humans may appear one dimensional in social interactions, especially to people with zero confidence because most of those people are usually trying to pinpoint the "one dimension" socially that this person offers over this one, but they are not.

Social interactions are always multi-dimensional.

 

[Erzengel]

*Nice Guy looks up. Looks at wet blanket. Gets confused.*

Dude, I get where you're coming from. BUT I think there's a fundamental DISAGREEMENT around here about "the nice guy". There are several definitions conflicting here:

1. He's the guy who lets the world walk all over him.

2. He's the guy who's respectful of women and others and is not willing to succumb to being traditionally-masculine.

3. He's the emotional guy who's in love with girls who're ignoring them (like 1. but different in being "emotional")

I think the 'Alpha' and 'Beta' distinctions serve it well here. But you have to be honest with yourself and say that both Alpha and Beta characteristics exist in you. The complete person is someone who's willing to accept that and be...

4. Emotionally stable, respectful towards women and others, BUT CONFIDENT AND WILLING TO PUT HIS OWN SELF FIRST. At least when it comes to relationships.

There is nothing wrong with doing that. The Nice Guy exists, but you don't have to be nice all the time. Especially to a society that doesn't value it.

After you're in a stable relationship, there's nothing stopping you from being the Nice Guy because you do need that. You need to be all of it. That's what I think.

Dude, I'd get out of my car and run to an entrance if I saw a handicapped person or someone holding 2 kids in each arm. I like to think of myself as a nice guy. But that doesn't mean I take s't in relationships. There's a difference between being considerate and a doormat.

Don't be a doormat. End of story.

 

[Anita18]

Dude, I'd get out of my car and run to an entrance if I saw a handicapped person or someone holding 2 kids in each arm. I like to think of myself as a nice guy. But that doesn't mean I take s't in relationships. There's a difference between being considerate and a doormat.

Don't be a doormat. End of story.

Also, society responds quite positively to niceness. What they WILL take advantage of is doormats. There is a definitely difference. Learn it.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I wasn't thinking that we were going to be so literal about this, but if we're talking about "the Nice Guy" having to be nice ALL the time, then he's got other problems. I'm taking more issue with the idea that the "Alpha male" has to not only be nearly exclusively self-serving, but also misogynistic. Human society resembles a wolf pack more than a pride of lions. The alpha male human is more the knight in shining armor that slays the ogre than the ogre himself.

Humans build very soft hierarchies that are usually unstable. You simply don't have "alpha" and "beta" males, or females. With lower order primates, in you are an "Alpha" male it's nigh-impossible for you to lose that status, no matter how much you abuse the authority. With humans, not so much. In fact, we don't even seem to have true Alpha authority figures. We seem to carry over that preference for confidence and strength, but we also have the ability to choose leaders and mates based on a wider variety of factors. Also we tend to favor groups that evenly distribute resources, responsibility and blame. That's not necessarily true of other primates or mammals.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Approaches aside.

I'm still not quite sure why you feel the need to put all your "emotional eggs" in one basket with this girl.

Why not play the field until she decides she wants to date? To be honest, if she waits too long you could move on to bigger better things.

Exactly.

Implicit meanings? Some people are incredibly dense or they're incredibly shy - you can concoct all sorts of things in your head from implicit meanings that may turn out to be untrue.

My cousin had a crush on one of his friends for the longest time. Finally he got up the courage to TELL HER what he felt, and guess what? She felt the same! They got married last year.

My bf and I had gone out on all of like, four dates when he told me he wanted to take things further. I didn't say yes or no at that time, but he didn't give off the vibe that his life would be over if I'd said no. He kept on asking me out, so I guess he was still a "nice guy." But, at least I knew exactly what his intentions were if I said yes to any more dates, so I couldn't cry foul later.

You'll never know if you don't ask.

Or maybe you'll be suited to the dating scene in France. My coworker from Paris just got out of a long relationship and he's having trouble navigating the American dating scene. We really want labels here, whereas apparently in France you keep on hanging out until one day it's "OMG we're having sex!"

I got a chuckle out of the French-system.
But good lord now I'm beginning to think I should just go ahead and ask the girl out!

Look, nothing would make MY LIFE HAPPIER if what happened to your cousin happened with me. But I HAVE GOOD REASON TO DOUBT she doesn't give a **** (remember New Years? Remember everything between then and before that? I did chronicle it well here, but I'll reiterate):

Girl I met about a year ago, reminded me of my ex a lot so I tried to keep her at arms length, BUT we became friends, like probably the closest ever. We've planned out all our semester and classes together just because it's what we wanted. Girl's nice, very much so - did a number of "nice nice nice" things together and for me and my family as well. BUT there's been ZERO indication of carrying it beyond nice. I started to grow feelings for her that went beyond the norm. My poetry started expressing her in it. I noticed I'd fallen for her. I must've given something away coz she stopped returning my phone-calls, texts, etc. I asked her what went wrong, she gave a myriad of excuses. I felt like a chump. Classes resumed, she kept me at arms length, but ALWAYS AROUND. Oh, and she actually asked me to join her for dinner, like three times, with friends. I had to turn her down for various of my own reasons. Nevertheless, we're still friends. On her birthday I made her a sweet little e-card which she got excited about. I thought "hmm?" Then things went south again as the phones stopped responding.

I'm still around her, still willing to show her how special she is in my world. But there is nothing telling me that she feels the same way. She's too nice to come out and say "dude, please just don't go there. I like you as a pal. Buddies 4eva". Whenever we talk there's nothing that gives her interest away in me as anything more than a friend.

And to top it all off, I've realized why this happens to me: coz I'm a wuss And I've had enough of that. If she doesn't care, then I shouldn't play along. I ought to take the hint and run with it.

Or at least that's what I was so much sure of until you guys kept trying to keep the Nice Guy alive / ?

As with all things, there's a scale.

Some of us see SuperMike as a Neanderthal, while he likely sees some of us as weak pansies. I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle.

What does that mean? You said yourself you have no confidence. That says it all right there. You either have confidence or you don't. Truly confident people don't NEED to show it - you can see it in everything they do.

If you think you need to show confidence, that screams you don't have any and you're likely to overdo it. My ex-bf had no confidence and he tried to fake it. Everyone thought he was an arrogant *****e instead. And he still found his heart trampled on a few more times before he finally met his wife.

My current bf is shy and quiet, but he's very confident in his abilities, and I never got the impression that he was putting all his emotional eggs in my basket. You don't have to be able to ask every girl's number to be confident. You just have to be settled in your life and stand up for yourself, and not be afraid to ask for what you want.

That's the second time I've seen you post that regarding SuperMike But heck, you can't ignore that some of his words have truth in them.

As for confidence... I think it's a bit different. I mean, I'm confident in my work, in my studies, in my art, my hair, and my perspectives on life. I'm NOT confident in my own masculinity, in my body, and in my WIT. So yeah, i wouldn't say it's that black-and-white. And because of the sexual nature of the last three, I'm pretty sure I come off as Mild-Mannered Clark Kent from CR than Investigative-Journalist Clark Kent from S:TAS. I DO lack confidence, but if I'm trying to flaunt it or pretend it, then yeah it isn't that. Best way to overcome it is to make it real. I think that's possible. I mean, masculinity, body and wit? Yeah, I can be confident on those things. You described your current bf AS THE GUY who exists in an ideal relationship: a dude who's balanced between his Alpha and Beta aspects.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

This is why you fail.

Humans are never one dimensional, ever. If a girl ever tells you that "you just don't understand me", this is at the heart of why she says this. Humans may appear one dimensional in social interactions, especially to people with zero confidence because most of those people are usually trying to pinpoint the "one dimension" socially that this person offers over this one, but they are not.

Social interactions are always multi-dimensional.

In a social interaction, my perception of YOU and vice versa is always a SINGLE image. Like the hypothetical girl who's telling you this; because that's "at the heart of her" ? Yeah. That makes her being that single character.

No, we perceive each other one-dimensionally ALL THE TIME. Even when they aren't. I'm more concerned about that perception, that impression of me, rather than the actual interaction.

Dude, I'd get out of my car and run to an entrance if I saw a handicapped person or someone holding 2 kids in each arm. I like to think of myself as a nice guy. But that doesn't mean I take s't in relationships. There's a difference between being considerate and a doormat.

Don't be a doormat. End of story.

Exactly what I'm trying to say. There's no definitive 'Nice Guy' or 'Alpha Male'. Both qualities exist within individuals. Same with masculinity and femininity. But for guys like me, who HAVE BEEN DOORMATS, we really ought to stand up more and work on those alpha qualities.

Why is that so hard to understand?!

 

[Erzengel]

I think is between a lot of your posts, you're kind of all over the place and not clear on what you are trying to say.

Sometimes being concise and quick to the point is better than writing a diatribe.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Humans build very soft hierarchies that are usually unstable. You simply don't have "alpha" and "beta" males, or females. With lower order primates, in you are an "Alpha" male it's nigh-impossible for you to lose that status, no matter how much you abuse the authority. With humans, not so much. In fact, we don't even seem to have true Alpha authority figures. We seem to carry over that preference for confidence and strength, but we also have the ability to choose leaders and mates based on a wider variety of factors. Also we tend to favor groups that evenly distribute resources, responsibility and blame. That's not necessarily true of other primates or mammals.

More specifically:
"Alpha" and "Beta" are not absolutes, but rather attributes, when it comes to individual character or personality. The one who can balance both is someone who's functioning.

I've personally fallen into the latter, and need to work on the former.

But we can't be naive enough to believe that people are perceived in those absolutes. That's all that impressions are about. And unless we can break away from those negative impressions, there's really nothing much helping us. The other person, guy, girl, whatever, is always looking at an image of you, not the core of who you are. That comes much later. And only after that does someone feel like they're in a stable relationship.

The other point we were debating was: are women more sexually attracted to the alpha-attributes of strength and confidence? I'll argue with an undisputed YES.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

I think is between a lot of your posts, you're kind of all over the place and not clear on what you are trying to say.

Sometimes being concise and quick to the point is better than writing a diatribe.

I think I've made myself clear by now. But yeah, I am confused about certain things, though not all of them.

The one thing I'm still confused about (now) is what I should be doing with the girl. Coz from "forget her", "move on", and "focus on yourself and let her come to you if she's interested" we've fallen back to "ask her out she might say yes", "you're a *****ebag if you only consider yourself", and "you're a confused little ****."

 

[Erzengel]

Is this the "E card" girl?

I mean, move the eff on.

Or at least start dating other girls, in an effort to get a little confidence in yourself and hopefully help you get over her.

Like i said earlier, you are putting way too much effort and time in this girl who doesn't sound like she's into you.

And you are never going to move on, if you keep revisiting these feelings.

 

[amazingfantasy15]

Girl I met about a year ago, reminded me of my ex a lot so I tried to keep her at arms length, BUT we became friends, like probably the closest ever. We've planned out all our semester and classes together just because it's what we wanted. Girl's nice, very much so - did a number of "nice nice nice" things together and for me and my family as well. BUT there's been ZERO indication of carrying it beyond nice.

Let's stop right here, so the girl is planning her semester to be around you as much as possible, you're doing things together, she's hanging out with your family, but there's zero indication of interest? That's interest, you needed to take it to the next step, can't always just wait for the girl.

I started to grow feelings for her that went beyond the norm. My poetry started expressing her in it. I noticed I'd fallen for her. I must've given something away coz she stopped returning my phone-calls, texts, etc. I asked her what went wrong, she gave a myriad of excuses. I felt like a chump. Classes resumed, she kept me at arms length, but ALWAYS AROUND.

You confused her and she probably got upset, she's doing all this nonverbal stuff to indicate interest, but you never responded to it.

Oh, and she actually asked me to join her for dinner, like three times, with friends. I had to turn her down for various of my own reasons. Nevertheless, we're still friends. On her birthday I made her a sweet little e-card which she got excited about. I thought "hmm?" Then things went south again as the phones stopped responding.

But let's give him another chance, damn he keeps blowing me off, wait, he's given me a sweet little card. Oh, but that's it, I would've really like for him to take me out on a date as a birthday present, but no. Screw him then.

I'm still around her, still willing to show her how special she is in my world. But there is nothing telling me that she feels the same way. She's too nice to come out and say "dude, please just don't go there. I like you as a pal. Buddies 4eva". Whenever we talk there's nothing that gives her interest away in me as anything more than a friend.

You've played with her emotions for a year, never responded to her nonverbal cues. You probably could've taken things to the next level, but never had the confidence to just go for it.

 

[Nave 'Torment']

Is this the "E card" girl?

I mean, move the eff on.

Or at least start dating other girls, in an effort to get a little confidence in yourself and hopefully help you get over her.

Like i said earlier, you are putting way too much effort and time in this girl who doesn't sound like she's into you.

And you are never going to move on, if you keep revisiting these feelings.

*nodding. Resolved. Saying "yes, ol' E's right on the spot again*

aannd..... just after that....

Let's stop right here, so the girl is planning her semester to be around you as much as possible, you're doing things together, she's hanging out with your family, but there's zero indication of interest? That's interest, you needed to take it to the next step, can't always just wait for the girl.



You confused her and she probably got upset, she's doing all this nonverbal stuff to indicate interest, but you never responded to it.



But let's give him another chance, damn he keeps blowing me off, wait, he's given me a sweet little card. Oh, but that's it, I would've really like for him to take me out on a date as a birthday present, but no. Screw him then.



You've played with her emotions for a year, never responded to her nonverbal cues. You probably could've taken things to the next level, but never had the confidence to just go for it.

Yes my invisible friends. That's exactly what I'm going through in my mind.

The Konfuzzlement Kontinues.

For the record, I do have the confidence to ask HER out.