BvS The Unabashed SPOILER Thread. ENTER AT OWN RISK. - Part 1

[IncognitoWalrus]

Just as probable that the dude is stringing people along...

Yep, but what can you do? We'll find out by tomorrow.

 

[hitmanyr2k]

PaleMonster said in a PM to me that Superman goes to Batman and tries to enlist his help in saving Martha, but Batman won't have any of it because he's too blinded by rage.

Good. That sounds better much better than them coming to blows without Batman knowing the whole story. I guess Supes doesn't call his mom by name at first though considering how Batman acts later when he hears the name "Martha".

 

[Rapunzel]

Yeah, it's kinda weird, but we'll see if that's how it goes down. It's highly probable Clark just doesn't get a chance to speak because Bruce acts so hostile.

Clark clearly has a chance to speak. He utters the "stay down" line.

 

[IncognitoWalrus]

Clark clearly has a chance to speak. He utters the "stay down" line.

Yeah, we'll just have to see whether it's true tomorrow.

 

[hitmanyr2k]

Clark clearly has a chance to speak. He utters the "stay down" line.

He clearly has a chance to speak before grabbing Batman and going through the building. From the clip I saw he just walks right up to him and BAM!! lol.

 

[RF20Lennon]

Isn't it for the best, though? I don't want a Superman who would fight another man -- even to the death -- just because of a difference of opinion when it comes to crime fighting or because he thinks Batman is too hard on the criminal element. I think this is meant to be a direct challenge and parallel to the fight with Zod in that Superman would want to avoid engaging in a potentially collateral damage creating brawl that could, in this case, legitimately hurt a mortal man.

Lex only gets his "fight night" because he uses Superman's humanity against him -- the exact thing that Batman and the public fears Superman lacks. The only way that Superman will even put up a fight that could potentially kill Batman is because he has people he loves at stake; otherwise, he would hold back due to his own moral imperative. I like that, and it works a lot better than fighting over ideologies, since you can't kill ideas with violence.

A fight wouldn't change either of their perspectives, and Superman would only prove Batman right if Superman willingly fought him to the death just because he didn't approve of the way Batman dealt with crime in Gotham or he didn't like that Batman disapproved of him. He would be proving to Batman that he's a god who would get his way by force. Superman only fighting because he's being pressured to do so for reasons that are appealing to his heart and his humanity allows for Superman to do what a ideologically motivated fight wouldn't, which is to ultimately move Batman to see Superman's humanity and vulnerability. It allows them to transcend their differences in a way that sets them more effectively on the path to bond as teammates and friends. A mere fight because of a difference of opinion wouldn't have accomplished that, I don't think.

I don't want Superman to fight him to death. I want Superman to show up to stop Batman, because he believes in his mind that Batman is a brutal maniac, who takes the long into his own hands and uses brutality and violence to get alleged criminals to confess and torture them. I want Batman to fight Superman because he believes that Supes is an unchecked power who could potentially take over the world and inflict a dictatorship on the planet.

It's not just a difference of opinion. It's a difference of methods. One man believes in humanity and dedicates himself to the service of humanity while the other is aware of the darkness in humanity and uses any means possible to stop it. It's about what a true hero really does

I don't want Supes to fight him to the death. I want him to push him around a bit (Holding back severely) to try and convince him to stop. Batman then uses kryptonite and gets the upper hand and they fight and both of them bleed. And Batman passes out of exhaustion (without that lousy TDKR speech) and Supes (in a tired, bloody state) flies him back to Wayne Manor and they talk it out and understand why both of them need to exist. Anyway, that's how I would do it.

 

[Rapunzel]

Just as probable that the dude is stringing people along...

Yep

Good. That sounds better much better than them coming to blows without Batman knowing the whole story. I guess Supes doesn't call his mom by name at first though considering how Batman acts later when he hears the name "Martha".

So Bats only cares about moms named Martha? Nice.

 

[misslane38]

I just think it's lazy writing. And if Superman doesn't say something to Batman about his mother being kidnapped which is forcing him to fight then it'll be that much worse to me...especially knowing Superman plows Batman through a building and tosses him like a sack of garbage through the floodlight. If he wanted to avoid hurting a mortal man that's not the way to go about it lol.

I would rather have Batman be the unhinged "villain" and be so desperate to kill Superman that he would do something drastic like kidnap Lois to draw Superman in.

So you'd rather Batman be turned into a straight up villain so that Superman looks good or for the fight to be on nonsensical ideological grounds?

I want a scenario that doesn't push either Batman or Superman so far in terms of extreme characterization that they become irredeemable as heroic figures going forward. Having Batman not only be homicidal with regard to Superman, but also willing to harm an innocent woman to get his way would undermine his character beyond repair.

I don't know why Superman wouldn't mention Martha. Maybe there's some explanation in the movie I don't know about. Maybe he doesn't want to reveal personal information about himself for Batman to use against him. Maybe he doesn't think it would mean anything to Batman, since he could view Batman as too heartless and single-minded to care about Martha. Maybe this leaked description isn't even true. I don't know what to think.

What I do know, though, is that I wouldn't want Superman and Batman to fight so intensely over ideologies alone.

 

[RF20Lennon]

So if he's debunking the reddit links, he must be debunking PaleMonster, cause Pale's synopsis was identical to that last reddit.

Who is debunking reddit links?

 

[Xiewin]

THIS. So tired of the bat-wank honestly.

But at least I hope it makes sense within the story and character. LOL people are so happy to see a working class farmboy who's sole purpose is to save people, get beat up by a fancy billionaire who is riddled with paranoia and cynicism.

People don't realize how much of a detriment this is to Superman's character. When TDKR was released, a whole new era of Batman fanboyism was created at Superman's expense.

Ending the fight with Batman as the winner will only expand the "greatness" of Batman's character, not Superman's.

Neither should have won, or lost.

 

[Rapunzel]

People don't realize how much of a determent this is to Superman's character. When TDKR was released, a whole new era of Batman fanboyism was created at Superman's expense.

Ending the fight with Batman as the winner will only expand the "greatest" of Batman's character further not Superman's. Neither should have won, or lost.

You do realize that fanboyism is just that-- fanboyism. The GA knows Supes always beats Bats--unless cheating is involved.

 

[IncognitoWalrus]

People don't realize how much of a detriment this is to Superman's character. When TDKR was released, a whole new era of Batman fanboyism was created at Superman's expense.

Ending the fight with Batman as the winner will only expand the "greatness" of Batman's character, not Superman's.

Neither should have won, or lost.

Is everyone forgetting that scene where Superman just kicks the Batmobile and sends it flying???

 

[hitmanyr2k]

So you'd rather Batman be turned into a straight up villain so that Superman looks good or for the fight to be on nonsensical ideological grounds?

I want a scenario that doesn't push either Batman or Superman so far in terms of extreme characterization that they become irredeemable as heroic figures going forward. Having Batman not only be homicidal with regard to Superman, but also willing to harm an innocent woman to get his way would undermine his character beyond repair.

I don't know why Superman wouldn't mention Martha. Maybe there's some explanation in the movie I don't know about. Maybe he doesn't want to reveal personal information about himself for Batman to use against him. Maybe he doesn't think it would mean anything to Batman, since he could view Batman as too heartless and single-minded to care about Martha. Maybe this leaked description isn't even true. I don't know what to think.

What I do know, though, is that I wouldn't want Superman and Batman to fight so intensely over ideologies alone.

Isn't Batman already sort of a villain as described? He's brutal and branding guys which is a death mark in prison and apparently he kills in this movie. I think he's already been pushed to the point where he's basically a step below The Punisher lol. And besides that his intent is to KILL Superman so isn't he already a villain?

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

PaleMonster said in a PM to me that Superman goes to Batman and tries to enlist his help in saving Martha, but Batman won't have any of it because he's too blinded by rage.

You've got to be kidding me...:breathes deep: OK I need to know why Bats is in such a rage.

 

[Xandrea]

I just don't want to see them ditch the Clark Kent reporter persona. I mean, he can still be Clark Kent when he's in private with Lois, his mom and whoever else knows his secret...

I don't see why that would be the end of Clark. They can't produce a body for him. The service for him at the end sounds private. All they can say is he's gone missing. It would likely work better than the trapped in rubble excuse they came up with in the comics since it sounds like he's about ready to pop out of that grave any minute.

 

[IncognitoWalrus]

You've got to be kidding me...:breathes deep: OK I need to know why Bats is in such a rage.

Well, I mean Scoot's wheelchair does blow up. I think it's safe to assume, regardless of PaleMonster's truthfulness, that Batman may be motivated by that.

 

[X Knight]

Superman: "Batman. We don't have time to fight. Lex has my mom hostage and she's in dan........"

Batman: "Shut up you alien scum!! You are a Man of Murder!! You must be branded with JUSTICE!!!!"

Batman wails on Superman.

Superman: "STELLA!!!!"

Batman continues to wail on Superman.

Superman: "JASON TODD!!!"

Batman continues to wail on Superman.

Superman: "MARTHA!!"

Batman: "Wait!! How do you know that name??!! Speak alien!!"

Superman: "That's my mom. She's in danger. We have to save her."

Batman: "Oh......well........why didn't you say so???"

Superman: "...............I tried. You were too busy calling me Man of Murder and Alien Scum. "

Batman: "Well.......sorry about. Anyways.....peace out!! I'll save your mom."

Batman smoke bombs into the night.

 

[misslane38]

Ending the fight with Batman as the winner will only expand the "greatest" of Batman's character further not Superman's. Neither should have won, or lost.

Batman is not the winner if Superman does not use his full force against him. In interviews, Henry Cavill has been adamant that the only reason Batman has a chance is because Superman goes easy on him. Batman is saved by Superman's mercy.

Furthermore, regardless of what unreasonable Batman fans may believe, there is no victory for Batman if the sole reason he engages in this fight is because he's driven by cynicism, fear, and despair. Superman can only be prevailed upon to fight in order to save innocent people -- the humanity he loves -- the best of him.

Batman, however, fights because he's being manipulated by internal and external forces that prey upon the worst aspects of his character. As far as I can tell, Bruce ends this film humbled and chastened by his mistake and by the example of true heroism he witnesses in Superman.

If Batman's fans are only interested in scoring points rather than analyzing the film and the battle between Superman and Batman in all of its complexity, then that's their problem. I care about the story.

 

[IncognitoWalrus]

Superman: "Batman. We don't have time to fight. Lex has my mom hostage and she's in dan........"

Batman: "Shut up you alien scum!! You are a Man of Murder!! You must be branded with JUSTICE!!!!"

Batman wails on Superman.

Superman: "STELLA!!!!"

Batman continues to wail on Superman.

Superman: "JASON TODD!!!"

Batman continues to wail on Superman.

Superman: "MARTHA!!"

Batman: "Wait!! How do you know that name??!! Speak alien!!"

Superman: "That's my mom. She's in danger. We have to save her."

Batman: "Oh......well........why didn't you say so???"

Superman: "...............I tried. You were too busy calling me Man of Murder and Alien Scum. "

Batman: "Well.......sorry about. Anyways.....peace out!! I'll save your mom."

Batman smoke bombs into the night.

Dude, why hasn't WB hired you?

 

[mos6142]

People don't realize how much of a detriment this is to Superman's character. When TDKR was released, a whole new era of Batman fanboyism was created at Superman's expense.

Ending the fight with Batman as the winner will only expand the "greatness" of Batman's character, not Superman's.

Neither should have won, or lost.

who cares about that, if Pale is right, superman is shown as the bigger man in sacrificing himself, how relevant is a winner between two of them, when one has saved humanity.

One of the biggest aspect of superman is that "he does not keep score"

 

[misslane38]

I don't want Superman to fight him to death. I want Superman to show up to stop Batman, because he believes in his mind that Batman is a brutal maniac, who takes the long into his own hands and uses brutality and violence to get alleged criminals to confess and torture them. I want Batman to fight Superman because he believes that Supes is an unchecked power who could potentially take over the world and inflict a dictatorship on the planet.

It's not just a difference of opinion. It's a difference of methods. One man believes in humanity and dedicates himself to the service of humanity while the other is aware of the darkness in humanity and uses any means possible to stop it. It's about what a true hero really does

I don't want Supes to fight him to the death. I want him to push him around a bit (Holding back severely) to try and convince him to stop. Batman then uses kryptonite and gets the upper hand and they fight and both of them bleed. And Batman passes out of exhaustion (without that lousy TDKR speech) and Supes (in a tired, bloody state) flies him back to Wayne Manor and they talk it out and understand why both of them need to exist. Anyway, that's how I would do it.

How does a fight prove anything about ideology? How does violence stop violence? You move people through ideas and by appealing to their hearts and minds. Aggression is intimidation. It's getting something by force. I don't want the foundation of the Bruce/Clark friendship and partnership to be some uneasy alliance where they tolerate each other's existence as some sort of balanced weights on a scale. I'd rather them find common ground and move past their differences in a real way so that they can become comrades.

It sounds like you ultimately get that, which is why you end by saying they would "talk it out." However, if talking is they key, it makes the fight rather meaningless, doesn't it? It also wouldn't explain how they could go from such vicious fighting to just talking when nothing had fundamentally changed between them, and they had supposedly been well aware of each other's ideologies before. They don't need to talk to each other to understand that.

From what I gather, there's a bit of a theme running in the film about isolation as a result of becoming jaded. Both Bruce and Diana sound like they've either become more aggressive or departed the hero business because they have suffered losses or grown cynical. Superman, by contrast, is connecting with people. He's living and loving. Also, his appearance on the scene might have made Diana and Bruce more introspective about their roles in the world as heroes. Ultimately, Superman not only showing that he hadn't given up hope, he had made connections, he had humanity, but also demonstrating his values and strength by fighting for love and dying to save others, bring about a turning point. It all gets Bruce and Diana to embrace hope and heroism again, and the world can be assumed to follow. That's powerful, as far as I'm concerned, if it is indeed how the movie goes.

 

[Kal-El.9859]

I don't see why that would be the end of Clark. They can't produce a body for him. The service for him at the end sounds private. All they can say is he's gone missing. It would likely work better than the trapped in rubble excuse they came up with in the comics since it sounds like he's about ready to pop out of that grave any minute.

I sure hope. I just don't want to see him as Superman 24/7 and Clark only in private situations...I need my ace reporter!

 

[AnneFan]

who cares about that, if Pale is right, superman is shown as the bigger man in sacrificing himself, how relevant is a winner between two of them, when one has saved humanity.

One of the biggest aspect of superman is that "he does not keep score"

And basically, Supes is being told by Lex he needs to kill Batman in order to save his mother. Supes loves his mother, but he doesn't want to be a killer. He's conflicted big time, while Batman is straight up going for the kill.

 

[X Knight]

How does a fight prove anything about ideology? How does violence stop violence? You move people through ideas and by appealing to their hearts and minds. Aggression is intimidation. It's getting something by force. I don't want the foundation of the Bruce/Clark friendship and partnership to be some uneasy alliance where they tolerate each other's existence as some sort of balanced weights on a scale. I'd rather them find common ground and move past their differences in a real way so that they can become comrades.

It sounds like you ultimately get that, which is why you end by saying they would "talk it out." However, if talking is they key, it makes the fight rather meaningless, doesn't it? It also wouldn't explain how they could go from such vicious fighting to just talking when nothing had fundamentally changed between them, and they had supposedly been well aware of each other's ideologies before. They don't need to talk to each other to understand that.

From what I gather, there's a bit of a theme running in the film about isolation as a result of becoming jaded. Both Bruce and Diana sound like they've either become more aggressive or departed the hero business because they have suffered losses or grown cynical. Superman, by contrast, is connecting with people. He's living and loving. Also, his appearance on the scene might have made Diana and Bruce more introspective about their roles in the world as heroes. Ultimately, Superman not only showing that he hadn't given up hope, he had made connections, he had humanity, but also demonstrating his values and strength by fighting for love and dying to save others, bring about a turning point. It all gets Bruce and Diana to embrace hope and heroism again, and the world can be assumed to follow. That's powerful, as far as I'm concerned, if it is indeed how the movie goes.

yep!!

 

[X Knight]

Dude, why hasn't WB hired you?

My rates aren't cheap.